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A How To Guide for Wrecking Your Nose Wheel

( first.....thanks for sharing, may we all , always be learning ).........

.the only thing i can add , is when i was flying during my pilot exam ,( useing a c172),

the examiner "during pattern work" told me ,

(on cross wind ), to reduce speed until the stall horn goes off and then ,

fly the rest for the pattern ,until short final, with the stall horn sounding off......

i think his reasoning ,for me to do that ,was to learn to fly in non standard pattern.

......so the main idea, is to talk, to a good instructor ,and do some T & G's with an good instructor
,,,,,,,also most good instructors have gray hair !!!!!!
....good day /rick
 
( first.....thanks for sharing, may we all , always be learning ).........

.the only thing i can add , is when i was flying during my pilot exam ,( useing a c172),

the examiner "during pattern work" told me ,

(on cross wind ), to reduce speed until the stall horn goes off and then ,

fly the rest for the pattern ,until short final, with the stall horn sounding off......

i think his reasoning ,for me to do that ,was to learn to fly in non standard pattern.

......so the main idea, is to talk, to a good instructor ,and do some T & G's with an good instructor
,,,,,,,also most good instructors have gray hair !!!!!!
....good day /rick


I am no instructor but.... that sounds crazy?? You are supposed to be making turns low and slow with the stall horn going off?? No thanks. Wife and kids wouldnt like that. I can understand working the angle of attack and learning the feel and skills but having the horn blaring and in effect ignoring it and then adding turns... NEVER Are you serious? You must be kidding? That is how people die.... I dont think i am overreacting...that is crazy.
 
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oop.s.... per my post of #52 and quoting post #54""".... ""that sounds crazy?? """
......now that, i have more of my early mourning brain cell's working....and i am remembering better,
i think, i only did fly ,with the stall horn going off, on part if the cross wind, and just most of the downwind.......
....good day
 
Not sure if its already been mentioned, but wide runways create a visual illusion of being lower than you actually are (described here for example: http://www.flytime.ca/runway-illusions). This can lead to flaring too soon and dropping in hard.

I don't think anyone else mentioned this specifically but this is what I was meaning to indicate as a factor when I mentioned the new (to me) runway width. I typically land on a 100' wide runway, 200' looks VERY different. This trip had me on 150' runways for landings in all but Front Range (100') and those looked big. This definitely contributed along with the other factors to get me out of the depth of my experience.
 
and...

"...I am no instructor but.... that sounds crazy?? You are supposed to be making turns low and slow with the stall horn going off?? No thanks. Wife and kids wouldnt like that. I can understand working the angle of attack and learning the feel and skills but having the horn blaring and in effect ignoring it and then adding turns... NEVER Are you serious? You must be kidding? That is how people die.... I dont think i am overreacting...that is crazy..."

Yeah, the pattern is no place to be jacking around with the stall horn blaring...

But at least you have less than 1000' to recover your stall/spin scenario...:eek:

If one of my students ever told me an examiner said this, I would be at the FSDO the next day to have a discussion with him...
 
Not sure if its already been mentioned, but wide runways create a visual illusion of being lower than you actually are (described here for example: http://www.flytime.ca/runway-illusions). This can lead to flaring too soon and dropping in hard.


The opposite is also very true. Narrower runways than you are accustomed to can result in flaring too late.
My worst landing ever was a failure to recognize this illusion after a long cross country flight to a small country airport. I didn't break anything because I caught it at the last second, but was very embarrassed with a carrier style controlled crash of a landing.
 
My first landings with the -9A were around 70 Knots. I did my transition training in a -7A and was drilled into my head to be at 80 Knots on short final.

70 Knots is way too fast to land a -9A. After getting more comfortable, I did many, many landings at 65 Knots and was still not always having good results. Now I aim for 60 Knots on short final with just a little bit more RPM to keep the sink rate from being too high and that seems to be much easier on the gear and brakes. The best advice I got was just try to keep the airplane off the ground in the flare. Hold it off as long as you can and the nose will gradually get higher and you will stall off the wing and land. The trick of course is to do this at a few inches off the mains.

I've had to land with quartering tailwinds before and that can get a bit exciting, but the key is really to get that airspeed as low as you can (AOA not sounding, but close) and this really helps manage the energy the plane has on touchdown and rollout. Go arounds are always an option!
 
Landings.

Here is my 2 cents. When I had trouble landing my Rv-3, I called my transition trainer for advice. This advise has worked also in my Rv-9. He asked what my stall airspeed was flaps extended. In the 9 it’s about 48 mph. Obviously this will vary depending on weight configuration. Multiply by 1.3 or 1.2 if you need to come in short or 60mph for short landings 65mph normal. (Rounded up)

Then he told me to go up to altitude and practice flying around at 60 and 65 flaps extended and see how much throttle was needed to maintain altitude and zero sink rate. I needed roughly 2300-2400 rpm. You need to know this, it’s good practice. He proceeded to tell me that the smoothest greased landings happen when you touch down close to to a zero sink rate. You need forward speed and energy to accomplish this to minimize the down force vector to minimize sink.

Here is what I did to practice the grease landings. Set up on a longer approach for practice. Pitch the nose for 65-70 mph airspeed. (1.3+ Vso)

Keep that airspeed and use the power on or off to control the decent. Maintain the forward energy over the numbers. Add power to control decent and let the plane slowly settle to the runway slowing forward speed tor 55-60 close to the runway. With forward energy and a minimal decent vector you will be greasing them on. After you do this for a bit, start using altitude and nose down airspeed for your forward energy instead of power and target the same airspeed coming over the numbers. If you are not using power you need to be gliding close to the runway as your down vector will be increasing as your forward energy decreases. Add a touch of power to decrease your decent and you will grease it on.

In sum, the 9 stalls at a slower speed and the longer wing in ground effect will make you float longer. You need to slow it down. 70 kts is way to fast over the numbers for the 9. Just keep in mind when you slow down to 60 mph and less, you need to arrest the sink and keep the forward energy going. The key is to be holding off as close to the runway as possible as you slowly dissipate forward energy.
 
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Keep that airspeed and use the power on or off to control the decent. Maintain the forward energy over the numbers. Add power to control decent and let the plane slowly settle to the runway slowing forward speed tor 55-60 close to the runway. With forward energy and a minimal decent vector you will be greasing them on.
Boy, that is such good advice. I am so sick of the "experts" telling me that I have to land in a nose-high attitude as if my hot little plane were a C-172. No, I make 3-point landings all the time. What you said is exactly how I have landed my plane successfully over 500 times. Having a tail-cam has really improved my landing technique. Except for the turbulence, this is a typical landing for me. I imaging an RV-9 landing is similar:

https://www.dropbox.com/s/5kj6n1xzsvhvrcq/2017-2-4 GMU Landing.mp4?dl=0
 
Nose wheel

Yes however, I was trying to explain my technique for energy management regardless of a nose or tail wheel. I think if I had a nose wheel on my 9, I would try and land in a nose high attitude touching on the mains first while minimizing the sink as much as possible at touch down. Keeping the stick back and nose off as long as possible. We all know the nose wheels are not so robust on the RVs.
 
And

Landing on the nose gear in ANY tricycle configuration aircraft is not recommended...

Three point landings in a taildragger is great; in a trike, not so much...
 
well...

Well, for one thing, typically the design loads are smaller for the nose gear. Why?...because the main gear is supposed to take a majority of the landing loads. This requires a lighter structure as the nose wheel is typically flown to the ground once the mains are down. Take a look at the difference in a -10 main landing gear leg versus the nose gear leg...

Second, there can be controllability issues if the nose wheel comes down first..."wheelbarrow" comes to mind, as well as the dreaded PIO...

Third, for most people, it is considered poor form...

Can it be done safely? Looks like it based on your experience...at least until something goes wrong...

But hey, if it works for you, great. It is just something in 35+ years of instruction, I wouldn't recommend to my students...
 
Why not? I've done many hundreds of three point "greaser" landings in my Lancair with no problems. I think this is an old wives tale.

I am not even sure where to start with an answer to that.

Lets just leave it with this.... Since this is forums for RV's, hopefully no one will take landing 3 point in an "A" model as good advice.
 
Keep in mind that you need some margin between stall speed and approach speed. That said, that is why 1.3 times stall is the target speed, the margin is built in to this target. If you are over 1.3, you are too fast. That means over the fence in a 9 at 65 mph, 57 kts. I don’t have mine done yet (for full disclosure), but; When I had around 200 hours I was frustrated with my 172 and 150 landings. I went back to basics, slowed way down, and all was well. Just recently I took a work colleague for a ride and he said my landings were smoother than he thought was possible! Yeah it wasn’t that good, but it was an ego boost none the less...

Tim
 
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"...the main gear is supposed to take a majority of the landing loads." Yes, that's true, but let me ask you. "What happens when you stall the plane?" Answer: The nose drops. It just never seemed smart to do a full-stall landing with a high pitch attitude and have the nose wheel slam down on the tarmac. Wouldn't it be easier on the nose gear structure to assume a slightly nose high attitude 6" above the runway then let the plane settle gently down with no shock loads at all?

... there can be controllability issues if the nose wheel comes down first...
Well of course, but I'm not talking about landing nose first. That would be crazy. In five years of flying my plane, I've only had one case of imminent PIO. A gust of wind caused me to drop in before I was ready and I bounced with a nose high attitude like the OP described. I immediately added power (like the OP did), stabilized, then eased the power back out and settled down. (I had plenty of runway).

Apparently, the landing gear on my Lancair is different enough from the RV gear that I can make "level" landings with no problem. I don't have those long, springy gear legs like the RVs. Oleo strut on the nose with 2.5" of travel, and oleo shock absorbers on the mains with about the same travel. Although our planes have different characteristics, I think we can all learn something from each other.
 
Approach speed has little to do with your actual landings, just how much runway you use up as excessive speed bleeds off in ground effect where you better already have proper attitude established if you want smooth touchdowns.

I've done hundreds of approaches at anywhere between 60 and 85 knots with full flap, half flap and no flap with greasers resulting in the end. Obviously if you cross the numbers at 85 knots, you're going to float a long ways as the aircraft wants to just keep flying. If you try forcing the thing down on the runway at excessive speed, that's where you'll have trouble due to the level attitude which means the nose gear will probably touch first.

I find with full flap, leaving a trickle of power on improves the arrival at touchdown if you misjudge the roundout.

Get that nose up, especially in a 9A with the long nose gear, at about 5 feet and just hold it there until you touch down. I've found RVs are the easiest airplanes I've ever flown to land consistently well, once you establish the proper attitude at touchdown.
 
Thank You so very much Claude for sharing all of this. I am a very low time student pilot with the "mid life" dreams of piloting my own airplane. All of the things you have described are struggles I have encountered in the not so distant past in my training. All in a 172......:eek::eek: I still have a CFI sitting right seat to help rein me in. So that is comforting. I don't know how I will ever solo. I sometimes really start to question my own human abilities to be able to learn what it takes to land a plane. ANY PLANE....let alone an RV someday. I also fear the day I will be exactly in the place you were in, and will I be able to handle it to a safe conclusion as you did. I think about these things alot when I am not flying.

All of the posts here are very helpful in so many ways. Just knowing it is not just me, but that it is somewhat normal to struggle with landings is comforting. The insight on what might go wrong and how to correct it is food for my brain to "chair fly" the problems in my head.

I am grateful to all that contribute in this RV community.
 
Approach speed has little to do with your actual landings, just how much runway you use up as excessive speed bleeds off in ground effect where you better already have proper attitude established if you want smooth touchdowns.

I've done hundreds of approaches at anywhere between 60 and 85 knots with full flap, half flap and no flap with greasers resulting in the end. Obviously if you cross the numbers at 85 knots, you're going to float a long ways as the aircraft wants to just keep flying. If you try forcing the thing down on the runway at excessive speed, that's where you'll have trouble due to the level attitude which means the nose gear will probably touch first.

I find with full flap, leaving a trickle of power on improves the arrival at touchdown if you misjudge the roundout.

Get that nose up, especially in a 9A with the long nose gear, at about 5 feet and just hold it there until you touch down. I've found RVs are the easiest airplanes I've ever flown to land consistently well, once you establish the proper attitude at touchdown.

+1 for Ross.

Attitude at touchdown is the key. With plenty of runway, speed over the numbers is less of a concern to me as establishing a nose up attitude and letting the plane slow and settle before touchdown.

A good way to practice setting the correct attitude is to find a long runway, approach a landing, then hold the plane just off the ground and ease in a little power. Hold the wheels off the ground. Fly most of the length of the runway. Then power up to go around, or power down to land. This is great practice for holding the center line in a cross wind as well. You can even ease into this by doing repeated approaches to land starting at higher speed and reducing the speed each time until you get minimum speed for holding the wheels off the ground. Plan on a go around each time until you reach the speed where you feel the plane wanting to settle. Not drop, just settle.

I find in most cases, when I get everything just right, the wheels kiss the ground a time or two in the length of the runway. Especially if there is a little wind variability. My landings are much better after a session of this type of practice.
 
In my 9A I've found that it is super easy to land but only when you aren't going too fast. Then you need to hold it a foot or two off the runway until it stops flying. If you're too fast, that can take up a lot of runway, because it will glide forever. Passengers don't even notice you've landed. If you touch the ground above stall speed, it will fly again.

The nose gear doesn't need to touch the ground until a lot later in the landing rollout. Just hold it off with back elevator until it won't stay up anymore.

Get comfortable flying very slow. This plane can do it. It is quite different than landing a 6 or 7 to me.
 
There is a big difference between what can be done.......

And what is best practice, when talking about landing technique.

Sure, a landing can be accomplished even if crossing the threshold at cruise speed, if the runway is long enough, but that fact is of no help to someone freshly transitioning to RV's or still at the low end of the lower time in type scale.

There is a reason that the professional pilot community is required to have a stabilized approach within a specific margin of proper speed for landing, and it isn't just to assure they can get down and stopped within the length of runway available.

Main point..... giving advice to someone that has been open about having trouble getting slowed down to a proper landing speed... that it doesn't matter if you can't slow down... you should still be able to make good landings.... is not helping them improve.
 
Again...

?...Apparently, the landing gear on my Lancair is different enough from the RV gear that I can make "level" landings with no problem...?

Again, go for it if it works for you. I stand by my comments, though. I would NEVER recommend this for any of my students...

Also consider that even with oleos, the landing loads must go somewhere; they are not magically dissipating those loads into thin air...
 
And what is best practice, when talking about landing technique.

Sure, a landing can be accomplished even if crossing the threshold at cruise speed, if the runway is long enough, but that fact is of no help to someone freshly transitioning to RV's or still at the low end of the lower time in type scale.

There is a reason that the professional pilot community is required to have a stabilized approach within a specific margin of proper speed for landing, and it isn't just to assure they can get down and stopped within the length of runway available.

Main point..... giving advice to someone that has been open about having trouble getting slowed down to a proper landing speed... that it doesn't matter if you can't slow down... you should still be able to make good landings.... is not helping them improve.

I'd also recommend a stabilized approach at a consistent and reasonable speed since the touchdown results should be more predictable and consistent, especially when new to ANY airplane.

That being said, only the last 3-6 feet count to make smooth landings and speed over the numbers has nothing to do with that gentle touchdown as I said. It's all about a smooth roundout at the appropriate height above the runway and holding the correct attitude until the plane gently settles to the ground.

RVs require minimal and slow stick movement to initiate that roundout compared to something like a 172. I see many people used to less sensitive or heavy airplanes, over control in the roundout and do a series of porpoises while the try to establish the correct attitude and feel for the runway. Time those wrong and you can touch on the nose wheel first.
 
I learned a long time ago that a demo of something in a video posted on youtube does not prove that it is the proper way to do something.....:rolleyes:

If you look close at his video (pause at the moment that the mains touch) I think you will see that it is far from being a 3 point landing, though he certainly could have held it off longer and touched down at a higher AOA. Better form, is to also hold the nose wheel off as long as possible and then softly set it down before it drops on its own.
 
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I learned a long time ago that a demo of something in a video posted on youtube does not prove that it is the proper way to do something.....:rolleyes:

If you look close at his video (pause at the moment that the mains touch) I think you will see that it is far from being a 3 point landing, though he certainly could have held it off longer and touched down at a higher AOA. Better form, is to also hold the nose wheel off as long as possible and then softly set it down before it drops on its own.

And there are differences in aircraft. The 6, in that video, sits at about 5* positive AOA on it's gear, compared to a 7 that appears much closer to 0 (don't own one so going off visuals). The 6 needs to be held at a more agressive angle of atteck when touching down to keep a good margin between the nose wheel and the ground.

Larry
 
Update

I got out for some self directed practice this afternoon and am so glad I did. The autopilot never got turned on and I reminded myself that I knew how to trim. After confirming my landing configuration stall speed (47 KT) I practiced handling (level flight, level turns, stable descents) in the low 60s. I also practiced a few descents with an airspeed correction at the bottom - this is what Chris taught me in my transition training. Basically this is pulling power to 10", descend and intercept altitude, then leave the power out and raise the nose a little to bleed the airspeed down to 90KT. Then add a little power to hold airspeed and altitude. This works so well and this is something that the autopilot won't do. It's such a wasted opportunity to get the airspeed under control.

I kept my speed down as I approached the airport and was doing 85 KT when entering downwind. This set up an easy approach and I'm not sure that I landed at all, not a hint of contact, one second I was flying, the next I was rolling out. Had no idea it could get that smooth. Approach was about 65 KT, added 5 to get a longer landing and touched down right around 60. Everyone who assured me that that plane would fly fine at those low speed was right of course.

It was a good flight and it was really great to have the best landing of my life when I needed it the most.
 
Thank you for sharing your experiences and allowing others to learn lessons thru you and not directly, myself included.

Maybe with someone like flightchops now tied to Vans, someone could do some real good youtube videos for all of us on how to land properly, and even showing what happens when you don't do things "per the book"
 
Final update

Probably the last update I'll put in here. I'm just back from another flight that went exceptionally well. Between this thread, the many PMs I received and a very good conversation with Ralph the other night, I've managed to get on track with landing this amazing airplane. Lots more practice ahead, but the method is working great so far. Here is my "works for me" landing process.

If in the pattern, pull the power back on the climb to keep from jumping to 110 KT at altitude. Get downwind established at 85-90 KT, TRIM to keep that speed and stay level. This is about 18" MP for my plane. First bump of flaps (5 degrees) after abeam numbers, let it bring the speed back to 85 if necessary.

Turn base, add 2nd notch flaps in the turn, power back to 12", pitch for 75 KT and when there, TRIM to maintain the approach hands off.

Turn final, all of the rest of the flaps in the turn. Pitch for 65 KT and when there TRIM to maintain the approach hands off. Here I can play with the power a bit to fine tune the descent rate, don't need to do much. It flies in pointing to the ground (uncomfortably even).

Over the runway, doing 65 KT, once 6' AGL, flair to LEVEL. Speed will bleed off slowly as it settles down gently. Tonight I was flairing at 60-62 KT and it was gentle. As the mains touch, add enough back pressure to keep the nose wheel off as long as you can, maintain centerline with the rudder while it's still effective.

My corrections really come down to 4 things.
- Intentionally get my speeds down, earlier, lower and stable
- TRIM
- confidently point it at the runway, don't rush to flair, and use small and gentle stick adjustments
- discipline to keep the procedures tight every time

Lots more practice ahead - I've only got 5 landings in during this rehab stint - but they are the 5 best landings I've had in the plane. While I don't doubt that the plane can be landed well at higher speeds by a more skilled pilot, it REALLY likes landing close to 60 KT. The side benefit is that I don't have any trouble sharing the pattern/circuit with 172s, had a 152 up with me tonight and there was no problem.

Thanks to everyone who pitched in on this thread. I hope it can be as helpful to others here as it has been to me.
 
Hi Claude
During the build of my 9A I came from fearing I would flip the plane to be absolutely convinced it would happen. I am not a specially skilled or high time pilot, so my way of understanding what was going on below me during landings were to fit a camera and record both nose and main wheel behaviour. I will highly recommend you to do the same - There are a lot of learnings. For me the most important one came from a very soft landing on the nosewheel, that I didn't even knew took place. I edited some of the video's and put them together...please have a look .......Especially at end of of video ca 17min36
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Mr92SjkTynA
I normally add 20 lbs in the baggage compartment when flying solo. I find it easier to get the stick all the way to the back.
Lasse
 
Good job Claude. Sometimes just getting back to basics yourself and using regimented technique gets the job done. I'm sure that brings great satisfaction and more confidence to you now.
 
Lasse,
Great videos.
Ive been away from my plane for almost 8 months now and thought I was losing my desire to fly. This got me excited again. Thanks.
 
That's some great video. The amount of oscillation in the gear on a good landing is surprising. The under wing camera view is something I haven't seen much of, I'm going to have to see if I can fit something on my plane.

Out of curiosity, Lasse, what is your typical speed at landing?
 
Solo between 57 and 60 kts over threshold
MTOW I try to be around 62 kts sometimes a little faster if I have plenty of rwy
Underwing camera is simply fitted with a bolt in the tiedown pos.
 
Good to hear the damage was minimal!

I tell all new -9(A) pilots to keep it simple. Use one flap setting for every landing, regardless of the winds; FULL flaps. This is much different than what I was taught, which was 10° on downwind, 20° on base, and 30° on final.

Once all the flaps are in, trim for your approach speed and just add power, as needed, to reach the runway.

For speeds I use 60 knots when heavy and 55 knots when light.

Those speeds are easy to remember and see on your SkyView.

Remember, our planes bleed speed quickly, so don't flair high and don't get slow!
 
Claude
Good job analyzing what you were doing wrong and correcting it.

Just use caution in developing a rigid standard process you use for every approach and landing. This gets a lot of people into trouble when they find themselves in a situation where their standard pattern process isn't possible.

Once you have regained full confidence I suggest you start switching the process up a bit, with the goal being to arrive on short final in your preferred configuration and at the correct speed, but taking a different path (such as a long, faster, straight in approach) to get there.
If you do that, and develop the skills to progressively analyze your speed, altitude and distance from the touchdown zone, you should never find your self in a tough spot again. Or if you do, you will easily know that it is time to go around and try again.
 
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