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Question on Best Pattern Entry

L

lr172

Well Known Member
I will be operating from an airport under a low class B shelf (06C). The airport elevation is 800', pattern is 1600 and the Bravo shelf is 1900. We only have about 5 miles to the East before the B goes to the Surface.

Preferred landing is to the West and I will be arriving from the West most times, so pattern entry is easy. My question is how to best enter a pattern when landing to the East. Clearly a straight in is easiest, but not standard. My question is how to best enter this. Can I enter a wide upwind leg or do I need to go way to the East to enter a 45* downwind entry. The area is densly populated and I don't like going out of my way when that low.

Second question is how to overfly the airport if I need to see the windsock. I can't get 500 or 1000" over pattern altitude.

I suspect that I will learn the conventions soon after using the airport for a while, but would appreciate what the experienced folks here think.

Thanks,

Larry
 
Give the airport manager a call. There are certainly preferred approaches and some that are discouraged.

Dave
 
It seems like flying south of the field (opposite side of the pattern assuming left patterns), crossing midfield (checking wind sock), and joining left downwind for R-09 would maximize your opportunity for clearing for aircraft, checking the winds, staying close to the airport for engine out considerations, and flying IAW the FAR/AIM
 
So Many Options

First off, stay close to the airport, within a quarter mile or so and no problem with any of the class B. Listen to DuPage ATIS and you don't need to overfly to check wind sock.

No bomber patterns and this is just like any other airport.

That's my cheap advice.
 
Following airport local protocol is best. Also see AC90-66A.

I am not sure I have a full picture of the airspace, but if I were arriving as a stranger to the airport after having confirmed the active is 09, I would announce 3-5 miles prior, then 1 mile prior for an crosswind entry, then when crosswind.

Depending on the local situation (read opinions) including the number of pattern flights going on, some frown on straight-ins but there is technically nothing wrong with it. Just let people know you are coming.
 
The FAA has stated in the past that the only approved pattern entry is the 45 to downwind and if you are more than three miles from the airport, you are not in the pattern. While you can do other approaches, if something bad happens, they may point the finger at you. This includes crosswind and overhead breaks to name a few. Remember, there are still a lot of planes flying around without radios and transponders who will be going 60 mph in the pattern. So it is best to slow down before getting close to the airport so you don't run them over.

BTW, if you have an EFIS know your panel, the wind velocity arrow will help you figure out which runway to expect. While not 100%, it will usually help with you approach planning.
 
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N941WR said:
The FAA has stated in the past that the only approved pattern entry is the 45 to downwind and if you are more than three miles from the airport, you are not in the pattern. While you can do other approaches, if something bad happens, they may point the finger at you. This includes crosswind and overhead breaks to name a few.

BTW, if you have an EFIS know your panel, the wind velocity arrow will help you figure out which runway to expect. While not 100%, it will usually help with you approach planning.
Click to expand...

I respectfully disagree with this statement.
 
Any of the entry techniques listed in the AIM are legal. Of course, we all must abide by the right of way rules.

I Tad posted it, I'll have to check is for authenticity...
 
N941WR said:
The FAA has stated in the past that the only approved pattern entry is the 45 to downwind .
Click to expand...

I read, and participated, in the link referenced above and there is still NO regulation that supports the above statement that I can find or was referenced.

I read where the AIM is advisory only. Yeah, tell that to the FAA. There are numerous legal ways to get on the ground. We can all argue until we're blue in the face but that doesn't change what is actually in the regs.

And we ALL know that if you ask the same question to 4 FSDO's you will get at least 5 different answers.

Nobody's going to win this one either...

Fly safe.
 
RV8iator said:
I read, and participated, in the link referenced above and there is still NO regulation that supports the above statement that I can find or was referenced.

I read where the AIM is advisory only. Yeah, tell that to the FAA. There are numerous legal ways to get on the ground. We can all argue until we're blue in the face but that doesn't change what is actually in the regs.

And we ALL know that if you ask the same question to 4 FSDO's you will get at least 5 different answers.

Nobody's going to win this one either...

Fly safe.
Click to expand...
I agree with you 100% but should something ugly happen, then they are going to point to the AIM. By "they", I'm talking about the FAA and the lawyers for the other party.

We have a mutual friend who recently sold his Bonanza who keeps telling me how bad a reputation RV's have in the aviation community. Mostly as a result of non-standard pattern entries. The funny thing about that is that I have seen more Bonanza drivers do 10 mile straight in approaches than I have seen RV's do overhead breaks.
 
RV8iator said:
I read, and participated, in the link referenced above and there is still NO regulation that supports the above statement that I can find or was referenced.

I read where the AIM is advisory only. Yeah, tell that to the FAA. There are numerous legal ways to get on the ground. We can all argue until we're blue in the face but that doesn't change what is actually in the regs.

And we ALL know that if you ask the same question to 4 FSDO's you will get at least 5 different answers.

Nobody's going to win this one either...

Fly safe.
Click to expand...

So, is an entry the crosses mid-field and enters the downwind a listed entry? How about entering the upwind?

I will break out my AIM this evening and look.

Larry
 
91.126(b)(1) basically says "all turns to the left" unless otherwise marked. AIM expands on this considerably but is not regulatory.
 
I read a good briefing document from AOPA. It was apparently done with the FAA. They discuss the preferred mid-field approach at 500-1000' above TPA, then decending on the downwind side. I only have 200'-300' between TPA and Class B. However, they discuss an alternate mid-filed cross-wind done at TPA. They state that when entering downwind from this approach you should yield to anyone on downwind or entering via the std. 45 to downwind.

This seems preferred when coming from the North, as I would like to avoid crossing the departure end of the runway (27) near the field.

Larry
 
I would think that if you used your radio, were clear on what you were doing, and were willing to communicate and work with others in the pattern, multiple entry types are viable. And if you're flying something "non-standard" for the airport or in general, yield to others.

IMVHO having a radio and not using it in the pattern ("because I don't have to!") is much riskier and much less courteous than not flying a certain "standard" pattern entry. Lots of hurt feelings and blood pressure spikes could be avoided if we just talked to each other a bit.
 
rmartingt said:
I would think that if you used your radio, were clear on what you were doing, and were willing to communicate and work with others in the pattern, multiple entry types are viable...
Click to expand...
You are assuming everyone else has a radio, which is not a good assumption.

I remember a Cessna 310 pilot screaming at a J3 pilot over the radio because the Cub "cut him off" when he turned base to final. The 310 did a 10 mile final.

After the guy took a breath, I mentioned that the Cub didn't have a radio and couldn't hear him. That set off another torrent of cuss words (this was in NJ) to which I suggested he try a standard pattern next time as it would be safer for him and the Cub. That pretty much shut him up.
 
N941WR said:
You are assuming everyone else has a radio, which is not a good assumption.

I remember a Cessna 310 pilot screaming at a J3 pilot over the radio because the Cub "cut him off" when he turned base to final. The 310 did a 10 mile final.

After the guy took a breath, I mentioned that the Cub didn't have a radio and couldn't hear him. That set off another torrent of cuss words (this was in NJ) to which I suggested he try a standard pattern next time as it would be safer for him and the Cub. That pretty much shut him up.
Click to expand...

I realize that some aircraft don't have radios. But if you do have one (as I'm betting the majority of the active GA fleet does), you should use it. I've run into people before who refused to use it because it wasn't absolutely required that they do so; that's not a good attitude at a crowded field. One could maybe make a case that pilots in no-radio airplanes should nevertheless have a handheld, but that's another matter...

It sounds like in your scenario Mr. 310 pilot was definitely in the wrong. 10-mile final means anyone in front of you with the room to do it gets to go.
 
lr172 said:
I read a good briefing document from AOPA. It was apparently done with the FAA. They discuss the preferred mid-field approach at 500-1000' above TPA, then decending on the downwind side. I only have 200'-300' between TPA and Class B. However, they discuss an alternate mid-filed cross-wind done at TPA. They state that when entering downwind from this approach you should yield to anyone on downwind or entering via the std. 45 to downwind.

This seems preferred when coming from the North, as I would like to avoid crossing the departure end of the runway (27) near the field.

Larry
Click to expand...

Pretty sure the AIM only references the standard 45 degree entry. I do use the mid-field entry if on the opposite side of the pattern, however I was taught to always be at pattern altitude in the terminal environment - i.e. descending (especially in a low wing a/c) is never a good idea in the pattern. I can see pros and cons to both ways, however.
 
In my opinion, anyone more than a mile or so from the airport are not in any portion of the pattern, to include a long final. To me there are still on the last portion of their cross country getting ready to enter the pattern, which should be done as already stated into a 45 on the downwind leg.
 
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rmartingt said:
I realize that some aircraft don't have radios. But if you do have one (as I'm betting the majority of the active GA fleet does), you should use it...
Click to expand...
I couldn't agree with you more!

What I'm trying to point out is that by using the radio doesn't mean you have the right of way.

I fly out of an airport with a LOT of antiques and none of them have radios. This is not a place where you want to come into the pattern at full speed and chop the power, drop the flaps, and land. If you do, there is a very good chance you will run into someone.

Having owned one of those no radio aircraft, I never miss the opportunity to remind people to slow down before getting close to an airport and keep your eyes outside as there could be a T-craft, Cub, Champ, Fleet, or whatever in front of them.
 
60av8tor said:
Pretty sure the AIM only references the standard 45 degree entry. I do use the mid-field entry if on the opposite side of the pattern, however I was taught to always be at pattern altitude in the terminal environment - i.e. descending (especially in a low wing a/c) is never a good idea in the pattern. I can see pros and cons to both ways, however.
Click to expand...

Their recommendation was to descend on the downwind side of pattern, not the pattern itself. They recommend the decent 2 miles from the runway. They were very clear that everything happening in the pattern (1 mile from runway) should be done at TPA.

Larry
 
The thing to keep in mind for all of the aircraft with radios is they may not be on the correct frequency or even at the right airport. I know for myself I will notify someone every month or so that are transmitting on our local airport frequency but going into another airport that I know doesn't use 123.00.
 
Something else you might do is to call the local flight school if they have one and ask to speak to one of their flight instructors. They are in and out of the pattern a lot and can tell you what works well there.
 
Pattern Altitude

Many airports have three published altitudes for traffic pattern depending on size and performance of aircraft. There are also a few airports with published pattern altitudes of 600'. It is not reasonable to believe that a King Air or Citation is going to stay behind a Cub at 600'. The faster airplane is going to be higher and wider. Some of the larger corporate jets will be at 140 knots or higher in the pattern.
 
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