Van's Air Force
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What is the right choice for floor mats in an RV?
- Thread starter TCSMOORE
- Start date
For ease of reference
Here is a link to the FARs referenced above. You can get a PDF version of the applicable section.
http://www.gpo.gov/fdsys/granule/CFR-2001-title14-vol1/CFR-2001-title14-vol1-sec23-1191
Fernando
Here is a link to the FARs referenced above. You can get a PDF version of the applicable section.
http://www.gpo.gov/fdsys/granule/CFR-2001-title14-vol1/CFR-2001-title14-vol1-sec23-1191
Fernando
vfrazier
Well Known Member
FAR 23.1182
Components, lines, and fittings, except those subject to the provisions of §23.1351(e), located behind the engine-compartment firewall must be constructed of such materials and located at such distances from the firewall that they will not suffer damage sufficient to endanger the airplane if a portion of the engine side of the firewall is subjected to a flame temperature of not less than 2000 °F for 15 minutes.
§23.1351(e)
(e) Fire resistance. Electrical equipment must be so designed and installed that in the event of a fire in the engine compartment, during which the surface of the firewall adjacent to the fire is heated to 2,000 °F for 5 minutes or to a lesser temperature substantiated by the applicant, the equipment essential to continued safe operation and located behind the firewall will function satisfactorily and will not create an additional fire hazard.
FAR 23.1191
Too long to copy here, but says that the firewall must be fireproof, made from certain materials, or proven acceptable by testing similar to Dan's test rig.
§23.1193 Cowling and nacelle.
(d) Each part behind an opening in the engine compartment cowling must be at least fire resistant for a distance of at least 24 inches aft of the opening.
*************************************************************************************************************************
None of these specifically talk about the occupant, or the upholstery, or the pilot's footwear. If you're saying that I can't have fire resistant black foam on the inside of my firewall, I don't see it here. And §23.1193 (d) Cowling and nacelle doesn't apply to the inside of the aircraft unless you plan to leave a hole in the firewall into the cockpit.
Components, lines, and fittings, except those subject to the provisions of §23.1351(e), located behind the engine-compartment firewall must be constructed of such materials and located at such distances from the firewall that they will not suffer damage sufficient to endanger the airplane if a portion of the engine side of the firewall is subjected to a flame temperature of not less than 2000 °F for 15 minutes.
§23.1351(e)
(e) Fire resistance. Electrical equipment must be so designed and installed that in the event of a fire in the engine compartment, during which the surface of the firewall adjacent to the fire is heated to 2,000 °F for 5 minutes or to a lesser temperature substantiated by the applicant, the equipment essential to continued safe operation and located behind the firewall will function satisfactorily and will not create an additional fire hazard.
FAR 23.1191
Too long to copy here, but says that the firewall must be fireproof, made from certain materials, or proven acceptable by testing similar to Dan's test rig.
§23.1193 Cowling and nacelle.
(d) Each part behind an opening in the engine compartment cowling must be at least fire resistant for a distance of at least 24 inches aft of the opening.
*************************************************************************************************************************
None of these specifically talk about the occupant, or the upholstery, or the pilot's footwear. If you're saying that I can't have fire resistant black foam on the inside of my firewall, I don't see it here. And §23.1193 (d) Cowling and nacelle doesn't apply to the inside of the aircraft unless you plan to leave a hole in the firewall into the cockpit.
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David Paule
Well Known Member
That last item, 23.1193, suggests that for our RVs, with bottom-rear cowling openings, the aluminum for the belly skin is a poor choice of material.
Of course, that regulation doesn't apply to our experimental airplanes. Still, those regulations are derived from actual experience. You might say that they are written in blood.
Dave
Of course, that regulation doesn't apply to our experimental airplanes. Still, those regulations are derived from actual experience. You might say that they are written in blood.
Dave
TCSMOORE
Member
Well I bought USD217 the floor mats from www.classicaerodesigns.com
Thanks for all your posts.
Out of interest I bought the USD217 the floor mats from www.classicaerodesigns.com
The service was outstanding. You take a few measurements of where you heels strike etc. Send them (and $) through and perfect mats turned up.
Thanks
Tim
Thanks for all your posts.
Out of interest I bought the USD217 the floor mats from www.classicaerodesigns.com
The service was outstanding. You take a few measurements of where you heels strike etc. Send them (and $) through and perfect mats turned up.
Thanks
Tim
ExtraKatana
Well Known Member
Classic
I took 217USD to mean $217 US Dollar. They are now $361 for floor mats. Just a bit of sticker shock and the realization that they are not needed
I took 217USD to mean $217 US Dollar. They are now $361 for floor mats. Just a bit of sticker shock and the realization that they are not needed
David Paule
Well Known Member
For a stainless steel panel under the floor area behind the firewall, how far back should it go?
Thanks,
Dave
Thanks,
Dave
E. D. Eliot
Well Known Member
A couple of notes
From my 42 years as a firefighter here in LA, the following observations;
* In my opinion, there is no such thing as fire proof. Everything that I know of either will oxidize rapidly (burn) or it will fail with exposure to flame/heat after X amount of time. So, beware of advertised products that say that they are fire proof. Do a thorough investigation before buying such a product.
* Fiberglass is the fancy name for a solid form of gasoline - once it starts to burn, it burns just like gasoline.
* Smoke in a confined enclosure (cockpit) is really bad. If it gets concentrated enough, you will take only one breath before instinct demands that you do not to take a second breath. The instinct to not breath is automatic and very strong, believe me - I've been there a few times inside of structure fires. So, if you can hold your breath long enough to land successfully, you are either lucky or have practiced holding your breath like free divers do. Or, if you can't hold your breath for long, you may take a few breaths and pass out like fire victims do and die.
Our choice as builders is to insulate with the proper materials and methods, not insulate and realize that in flight fires are far and few between, or sell the airplane.
I wholeheartedly believe Dan's experience and testing can help us all make the right informed choices. It is said, "build the airplane that you want".
From my 42 years as a firefighter here in LA, the following observations;
* In my opinion, there is no such thing as fire proof. Everything that I know of either will oxidize rapidly (burn) or it will fail with exposure to flame/heat after X amount of time. So, beware of advertised products that say that they are fire proof. Do a thorough investigation before buying such a product.
* Fiberglass is the fancy name for a solid form of gasoline - once it starts to burn, it burns just like gasoline.
* Smoke in a confined enclosure (cockpit) is really bad. If it gets concentrated enough, you will take only one breath before instinct demands that you do not to take a second breath. The instinct to not breath is automatic and very strong, believe me - I've been there a few times inside of structure fires. So, if you can hold your breath long enough to land successfully, you are either lucky or have practiced holding your breath like free divers do. Or, if you can't hold your breath for long, you may take a few breaths and pass out like fire victims do and die.
Our choice as builders is to insulate with the proper materials and methods, not insulate and realize that in flight fires are far and few between, or sell the airplane.
I wholeheartedly believe Dan's experience and testing can help us all make the right informed choices. It is said, "build the airplane that you want".
+1 on Walt's endorsement
wirejock
Well Known Member
Panel
I'm curious about this solution too.
How wide?
How deep fore/aft?
How thick?
How do you seal the panel from moisture? You won't be able to inspect the mating surfaces for corosion so it needs to be protected. If it's permanently riveted in place, you won't know about a problem till it shows up on the inside. Stainless will outlast the aluminum right? What about dissimilar metals? Maybe a removeable panel you can inspect at annual? How would that be installed? Maybe replace some of the rivets with screws and nutplates? How many?
Sorry, not bashing. My lack of knowledge requires me ask lots of questions. I really like the concept. Since I'm very close to riveting the canoe, this is the time to ask.
I'm curious about this solution too.
How wide?
How deep fore/aft?
How thick?
How do you seal the panel from moisture? You won't be able to inspect the mating surfaces for corosion so it needs to be protected. If it's permanently riveted in place, you won't know about a problem till it shows up on the inside. Stainless will outlast the aluminum right? What about dissimilar metals? Maybe a removeable panel you can inspect at annual? How would that be installed? Maybe replace some of the rivets with screws and nutplates? How many?
Sorry, not bashing. My lack of knowledge requires me ask lots of questions. I really like the concept. Since I'm very close to riveting the canoe, this is the time to ask.
Does anyone carry smoke hoods in their aircraft? Seems like, based on the above post about the effects of smoke from an expert, they'd be a good item to have readily available...
macrafic
Well Known Member
I have the same questions as wirejock. Anybody?
I went with no floor matts...it seems useless to have them for noise reduction, that's what ANR headsets are for. I have two other planes as well that I fly in Alaska, all floor matts have been removed from them too. Hard to clean, trap dirt and moisture, migrate around. Any in the RV I also like to do Acro. Less is better.
Also a thumb's-up on the Classic Aero mats. Very nice, and if you use the Velcro, they don't move around at all.
alpinelakespilot2000
Well Known Member
Just made my own using airtex carpet and super soundproofing foam from ACS--both FAA approved.
http://www.airtexinteriors.com/samplesCategory.php?categoryKey=carpeting
http://www.aircraftspruce.com/catalog/appages/soundproofinstall.php?clickkey=57336
I originally started with nothing on the cabin floor, but the foam and carpet cut down vibration substantially and looks very nice as well. Just made four pieces to fit in between the stiffeners.
http://www.airtexinteriors.com/samplesCategory.php?categoryKey=carpeting
http://www.aircraftspruce.com/catalog/appages/soundproofinstall.php?clickkey=57336
I originally started with nothing on the cabin floor, but the foam and carpet cut down vibration substantially and looks very nice as well. Just made four pieces to fit in between the stiffeners.
Weasel
Well Known Member
I did this on the RV-10 but I don't know if I can find any pictures. I will try to get some next time I am under there.
I made it about 1" or so wider than the cowl air outlet.
Went from firewall to front seat forward bracket.
Used 0.010" SS overlaying 1/4" loose ceramic insulation (not bound)
3M Fire barrier for sealant on all edges
Installed with 3/32" blind rivets. Dob of Fire Barrier on the head of each rivet then sanded and painted.
If I did it again I would probably use 1/8" instead of 1/4" insulation. It is just what I had here on hand from doing the firewall.
Weasel
Well Known Member
Yes I know.....little oil getting away from me 
[/url]RV10 Belly Insulation by shenweas, on Flickr[/IMG]
Solutions
As Dan and others describe, there are possibilities and opportunities for a solution on multiple fronts here.
Vibration or sound solutions could be offered as part of interior packages using some of the solutions posted here.
Firewall/floor solutions could be offered as kits from Vince or AeroSplat using some of the solutions posted here.
To me, at 56 years of age, after 2 RVs and a third in progress, raising two children under the age of three, solutions from those with more knowledge than mine in these areas, offered in a complete, tested package, offer great value and save one thing none of us can buy, time.
FWIW
As Dan and others describe, there are possibilities and opportunities for a solution on multiple fronts here.
Vibration or sound solutions could be offered as part of interior packages using some of the solutions posted here.
Firewall/floor solutions could be offered as kits from Vince or AeroSplat using some of the solutions posted here.
To me, at 56 years of age, after 2 RVs and a third in progress, raising two children under the age of three, solutions from those with more knowledge than mine in these areas, offered in a complete, tested package, offer great value and save one thing none of us can buy, time.
FWIW
Flightline Interiors
I installed carpet and underlayment foam from Flightline Interiors. The cost was less than $200 and the carpet looks good. I had to put a couple of grommets in, and hold it down with with zip ties because the snaps weren't quite in the right spot. Surprisingly, I couldn't detect any difference in noise level before and after with my decibel meter. I don't think it's the carpet's fault but that the noise in my cockpit is from other sources. That disconcerting pitch change you get when you move your feet around on a bare cockpit floor did go away however. John
I installed carpet and underlayment foam from Flightline Interiors. The cost was less than $200 and the carpet looks good. I had to put a couple of grommets in, and hold it down with with zip ties because the snaps weren't quite in the right spot. Surprisingly, I couldn't detect any difference in noise level before and after with my decibel meter. I don't think it's the carpet's fault but that the noise in my cockpit is from other sources. That disconcerting pitch change you get when you move your feet around on a bare cockpit floor did go away however. John
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Yes I know.....little oil getting away from me
[/url]RV10 Belly Insulation by shenweas, on Flickr[/IMG]
An interesting approach Weasel. I would like to add carpet, but have not due to the risks of noxious fumes during an engine fire (Thanks Dan for pointing out the risk). With a setup like Weasels, SS sheet and some insulation, should we feel comfortable putting down carpet or foam products on the interior floor?
Larry
Pop Alexandra
Active Member
You could also try fire rated recessed lights in case you're still interested.
