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What type of flap indication are you using ?

D

Darren S

Well Known Member
Good morning -7/7A builders,

I have the electric motor for the flaps installed on my -7. I have the flap switch that came with the install kit.

I would like to have an indicator on the panel showing the degree of flaps extended. My options are (as I see it) :

1. Van's Flap Position kit $225. Has switch and some device that allows you to hit the switch once for 10 degrees, again for 20 degrees etc... and one click for flap retraction. No panel indicator.

2. Aircraft Spruce has a POS-12 (some positioner device) for $40 and when hooked to a Ray Allen indicator $100, is a way to visually see the level of flap deployment

3. A fella said that he just used the flap switch that came with the flap motor kit and made some mark on the exterior of his plane and all he does is look out the canopy and take a look at the flap position with reference to his mark. I don't quite understand how to do this.

So what are you using ?

Thanks,

Darren
 
Darren S said:
Good morning -7/7A builders,

I have the electric motor for the flaps installed on my -7. I have the flap switch that came with the install kit.

I would like to have an indicator on the panel showing the degree of flaps extended. My options are (as I see it) :

1. Van's Flap Position kit $225. Has switch and some device that allows you to hit the switch once for 10 degrees, again for 20 degrees etc... and one click for flap retraction. No panel indicator.

2. Aircraft Spruce has a POS-12 (some positioner device) for $40 and when hooked to a Ray Allen indicator $100, is a way to visually see the level of flap deployment

3. A fella said that he just used the flap switch that came with the flap motor kit and made some mark on the exterior of his plane and all he does is look out the canopy and take a look at the flap position with reference to his mark. I don't quite understand how to do this.

So what are you using ?

Thanks,

Darren
Click to expand...


Darren, Steve Sampson has built one of best RV-4s I have seen. Here is the link to his flap indicator:

http://gikonwings.blogspot.com/

This very reliable flap indicator is as cheap as chips (french fries) just two marks on the flap to see how much is deployed. You have to move your head though and look outside.
 
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My Eyes And Count

I just look ot the canopy for a visual reference.

I also mentally count off to know approximate travel range. My total flap extension time is twelve seconds.

I count off in four second incriments for one third, two thirds and full flap extension. Then I will usually give a quick glance to verify flap location. To retract I hit the up switch and count to thirteen. The extra second insures total retraction. Another quick glance to insure full retraction and call it done.

Once you've done it a couple of times it really quite easy.

I also built my plane with simplicity in mind. I felt the flaps were easy enough to deal with so there was no need for added switches, relays or indicators.

Ted
 
KISS...

Hi.

If you prefer the KISS principle, you don't need an indicator at all, either on the exteriour or on the panel.

You really need three flap positons: up, T/O-flap and full flap.

The up-position is ofcourse level with a neutral aileron and you can easily see that.
Besides the flap stops in up by itself when you retract it after t/o.

The T/O-flap is equal to an aileron in down-postion. To set the flap before takeoff, you just push the stick over fully and extend flap until it's equal with down aileron.

For landing you just extend flaps until it stops by itself.
If you like to extend flaps in increments during the landing pattern, you can easily do that by counting seconds for the flap-positions you need during the landing pattern until it's fully extended.

What your friend probably means by putting marks on the exteriour of the plane, is that you take a black thick pen and a straight edge.
With the flaps in UP, you then draw a straight line starting a few inches in from the wing trailing edge and onto the forward edge of the flap. (the curved part of the flaps where you put on that thick see-through plastic)
When those two lines makes a straight line, then the flaps are up.

Then you extend the flaps to T/O-postion and draw another two (so it's different from the one lone line) straight lines, starting just inside the wing TE and then onto the fwd edge of the flap.
When those four lines makes two straight lines, you have you T/O-flaps.

Same procedure with the full flaps postion, but here you use three lines.

You ofcourse draw these lines close to the fuse so you easily see them from your seat.
You also want to draw them at an angle on the wing, so you look straight down those lines when looking at them.

(se my pics on next page of this post)

Voila: there you have most cheap and reliable flap-indicator in the world! :)

I am at work now, so I don't have any pics of mine, but I'm sure a lot of people have made one like this and one of them will probably post a pic or two.
 
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ao.frog said:
What your friend probably means by putting marks on the exteriour of the plane, is that you take a black thick pen and a straight edge.
With the flaps in UP, you then draw a straight line starting a few inches in from the wing trailing edge and onto the forward edge of the flap. (the curved part of the flaps where you put on that thick see-through plastic)
When those two lines makes a straight line, then the flaps are up.

Then you extend the flaps to T/O-postion and draw another straight line on the forward edge of the flaps, starting at the same line you just made on the wing TE and then on on to the fwd edge of the flap.
When those two lines makes one straight line, you have you T/O-flaps.

Same procedure with the full flaps postion.

You ofcourse draw these lines close to the fuse so you easily see them from your seat.
You also want to draw them at an angle on the wing, so you look straight down those lines when looking at them.

Voila: there you have most cheap and reliable flap-indicator in the world! :)

I am at work now, so I don't have any pics of mine, but I'm sure a lot of people have made one like this and one of them will probably post a pic or two.
Click to expand...

If I understand this right, you're talking about drawing lines at a slanted angle to the spar? You can just as easily draw them parallel to the spar and then you don't have to put marker on your wing at all. Use a digital inclinometer and find the steps of flap deployment that you want (i.e. 10 degress, 20 degrees, etc...) and place a small line where the flap meets the trailing edge of the wing for each deployment step. When you can see the line, you know where you're at. This way keeps your el cheapo marker lines completely hidden when your flaps are up.

For what it's worth, using a count like Ted mentioned and eyeballing it seems to work fine. I don't really care what degree of deployment the flaps are at, as long as the plane is flying how I desire it to. If I need more, I drop more; if I need more still, I stand on the rudder and slip it down.
 
KISS and KISS NOT

Hi Darren,
the KISS NOT - being an electronics geek, I designed a board that will sequence the flaps to a selected position and read back the current position using a potentiometer attached to the motor shaft. The reason it is also KISS is that it has a manual mode that takes all the electronics stuff out and allows me to lower the flaps by holding the switch and watching. I can also hold the switch and watch the LED's as it goes through the various positions.
Beauty is in the eye of the beholder!

Have fun,
Paul
 
Flap Position Indicator

When planning my panel layout I talked to someone at Vans regarding flap position indicatiors. His response to a failure proof indicator was "Look out the window".

I then installed an AFS 3500 which has a flap position feature, but will probably still adhere to his advice.
 
Thanks for the great replies fellas. I didn't think of counting off a set number of seconds and using that as a way to know the degree of flap deployment.

KISS: That's been my building philosophy throughout and I think I will stick with a simple idea mentioned in this post. For my own sense of peace, I think I would like to put a line on the outside just to verify that I'm at the correct degree of deployment.

I'll await a picture, I think someone said they were going to post a pict.

Darren
 
I originally put lines on the flap to wing for the inspection for pink slip. After that I found that I like to inspect the flap down to wing line for in case the motor come apart for the wired nut. Just something I look at. My original lines have dissappeared for I never used them inflight anyway. I just look out the window and set for full down, that's the only possision I use. Either that or none at all. Most the time it's full down because I'm a stickler for short approaches, real short, I put full on and than do my base turn, many times with a slip and than base to final about 200ft out from the numbers. Works for me. I bought the sensor from ray allen but never put it on, my thought was that I would install that with indication in the d180 for night ops, can't see the flap very well:rolleyes: But haven't got around to it, winter came in real fast and I don't like working in the cold.
 
Darren S said:
I'll await a picture, I think someone said they were going to post a pict.

Darren
Click to expand...

Darren, click on the link in post #2. A picture of a fully deployed flap showing indicator markings should appear before your very eyes. I don't think I can make it any easier than that.
 
islandmonkey said:
Darren, click on the link in post #2. A picture of a fully deployed flap showing indicator markings should appear before your very eyes. I don't think I can make it any easier than that.
Click to expand...
A little easier yet, here is the photo from the link.

HPIM1660.jpg


Oh, and I am in the camp that no sort of flap indicator of any sort is remotely needed.
 
Darren S said:
Thanks for the great replies fellas. I didn't think of counting off a set number of seconds and using that as a way to know the degree of flap deployment.

KISS: That's been my building philosophy throughout and I think I will stick with a simple idea mentioned in this post. For my own sense of peace, I think I would like to put a line on the outside just to verify that I'm at the correct degree of deployment.

I'll await a picture, I think someone said they were going to post a pict.

Darren
Click to expand...

Darren, this really is a non-issue. :)

What is "the correct degree of deployment"? Well.....it's whatever you want it to be. You can drop full flaps anywhere below 87 kts (that's what it is for the RV-6, anyway). It just depends on how steep an approach you want and whether or not you want to carry power to the threshold.

When I flew transition time with Mike Seger many years ago, he taught transitioning pilots to go to full flaps on downwind, then forget about them and just fly the approach. As you get more accustomed to the plane, you will instinctively use whatever flap setting fits the circumstances.

At one time I had some marks on the flaps, but never used them. I am of the opinion that a quick glance over your shoulder is all you will ever need.

Spend your "worry time" on something else. ;)
 
one more little response, I think it's better on the motor if you are watching the flaps go down, that way you can stop it as soon as it hits bottom or all the way down. I think running the motor after the end hurts it. You may end up going into this zone with any other indicator.
 
I'd kinda like to have one for night. That way you could tell if they came back up or your dragging some barb wire. Daytime you can tell.
 
Invisible lines or not

If I understand this right, you're talking about drawing lines at a slanted angle to the spar? You can just as easily draw them parallel to the spar and then you don't have to put marker on your wing at all. Use a digital inclinometer and find the steps of flap deployment that you want (i.e. 10 degress, 20 degrees, etc...) and place a small line where the flap meets the trailing edge of the wing for each deployment step. When you can see the line, you know where you're at. This way keeps your el cheapo marker lines completely hidden when your flaps are up.


Hi again.

I just want to add a comment to the words above:

Those hidden lines are a good idea if you want to keep your pride'n joy "clean and tidy".
I have found however, that's it's kind of fun when people (specially pilots) ask what those lines are for.
Then I smile and say:
"This is what homebuilding is all about: KISS. What you see is the worlds cheapest, most reliable and totally maintenance-free flap-indicator"

That put a smile on most people's faces...;)

That beeing said: on my next RV, I might skip them anyway, because I rarely use them. I just do what most people here have written already: I drop down whatever flaps I need and that's it.

But ofcourse: here we're just talking about personal preference really....
 
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Decided upon in the early phases of instrument panel planning, I thought installing a flap position indicator would prove to be a desirable feature and I installed one just because I could. With a momentary flap toggle switch on the joystick grip, an infinite number of flap settings between 0? and 40? is technically possible and I wanted to see those settings displayed. Or so I thought. In operational practice, the flap position indicator has proven to be the least utilized instrument fitted to the instrument panel.

2qmqd7l.jpg


We all have a different flying style. I am comfortable to deploy some degree of flap primarily to help slow the airplane down as required and don't feel the need to look out the window just to see where the flaps happen to be set. I'd rather note the initial deployment at or below the white arc painted on the airspeed indicator and I'll use whatever flap setting required to help me reach the airspeed target I happen to be shooting for at any given moment. In practice, I usually deploy *approximately* 1/2 flaps somewhere in the pattern, followed by full flap deployment somewhere along final. A precise flap setting is just not important to me.

This system works well for me. We are all different and other fliers are certain to use techniques that work well for them.
 
pics.

Hi again.

I took a couple of pics of my el-cheapo flapindicator today:




And here is it seen from the cockpit:




(the camera schold've been held further aft because it schould be looking straight down the lines, but I guess you get the idea...)

Hope this helps.
 
Thanks to all for the excellent suggestions for flap indication.

I'm going to keep it simple and make a line on the flaps to show 10, 20, 40 degree flaps. If needed I can take a quick look out the window to verify the flap position. I'm sure with time I'll be comfortable without needing a visual reference but it's so darn easy and cheap to do.

In this wonderful world of RV building I often wonder how I would get by without having such an excellent forum to call upon. There are so many great ideas out there that would likely never get passed along without this valuable tool.

Hats off to those who built their RV's in the days before the internet :)

Darren
 
Painted on

Here's mine 1/2 flap and full flap, I also have an indicator on my Advance Flight System Engine Monitor. Before I had it painted electrical tape did the trick.

IMG_00160.jpg
 
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Although an old thread, my solution is simpler, no markings of any kind.

I use three settings: Up, Down, and matched to a lowered aileron for soft field departures.

I have found it easier to put in all the flaps a beam the touchdown point, trim for my finale approach speed and fly the pattern at that stabilized speed.

These planes are so over powered that a go around at gross on a hot day is a non-event. (Even when I had the 135 hp engine.) Your biggest issue will be getting the flaps up before over speeding them. These are not Skyhawks or Cherokees where you have to nurse the flaps up to avoid the trees at the end of a 5000' runway.
 
Flap Position Indicator

Hey,
I have both. I like the Vans system. Works nicely for me. No bumping to get what you want. Your attention can be focused on more important things at that point of the approach process. I put a 1/4" X 2" piece of red tape at the outside edge of the left flap where it protrudes from under the trailing edge of the wing at the 10, 20, and 40 deg positions. One glance out the canopy and I get an instant confirmation of the selected flap sitting. Good luck.
I can email a pic if you like.
[email protected]
 
What is the "correct" angle?

While building my 7A, I fly a Grumman Tiger. Like a lot of you, I hold the switch down on downwind for about a 4 or 5 count, then glance out the window to see if "tlar". Maybe others are more sensitive to the nuances of the airplane than I am, but I can't tell any difference in the feel or descent rate of the airplane whether the initial flaps are at 20, 17, or 23 degrees. They are just about a third to half of the way down. I don't drop them the rest of the way down until I am sure I have the threshold made. If it's a short/soft field, I put them down full a little sooner, and use the throttle more to control descent rate and altitude. The exact number of degrees the initial flap setting may be down from the full up position is not critical to me. The Tiger may have a flap position indicator, but I have never used it.
 
I've been flying manual flaps in my 170 for 30+ years,and if there'd been a manual flap option for the RV-7, I would have taken it; I just didn't want to re-engineer the system. You use the position of the handle as the indicator. From what I read here, you'd only need three notches in the sector: up, half, and full.

With the electric system, I think the most I'll do is put the marks on the flap skin.
 
Using the Vertical Power VP-X makes flap operation easy. You can configure multiple stops as long as you have a Ray Allen POS-12 sender on the flap arm.
I have it set up for 3 positions - up, 1/3, 2/3 and full down. Hit the down button on the stick grip once, it goes down 1/3 and stops. Press it again and it goes to 2/3 down. Third press it goes down to full flaps. Press the down button three times quickly and it goes to full down position in one step. One press of the up button will stop it where ever it is when moving down. If the flaps are down and stopped in any position, a single press of the up button brings them to full up.
 
"Experimental" flap indicator

My builder put the word "Experimental" on each flap along the trailing edge. He sized the font so that half-flaps is when the middle horizontal bar of the capital letter "E" is showing just at the end of the wing skin and full flaps is when the entire "E" is showing. When I don't want to look I just count five seconds (with electric trim) for half flaps and 5 more seconds for full flaps.

This also solves for having the word "Experimental" in full view of any passengers when stepping up into the plane with the flaps deployed.

When flaps are up I don't have any word "Experimental" showing, just the cockpit warning placard.
 
Mistaken statement

I meant that the word "Experimental" is placed along the front edge of the flap, NOT the trailing edge (like the painted lines are in the photo).
 
Potatoes

I count potatoes to know how much flaps I'm putting down.
I start counting as soon as I press the switch down.

One potato Two potato (let up on switch) gives me a little over 10 degrees, not quite as far as matching the same position as full down aileron, which would be just about 15 degrees.

One potato two potato three potato four -- gives me about 25 degrees of flaps.

Six and a half potatoes gives me full flaps, and you can hear the flap servo reach the end of its travel.

The old C172 I took most of my lessons in had the same sort of momentary contact spring loaded flap switch like our RVs (except it was flap shaped) and the flap indicator was a mechanical pointer that moved up and down in a vertical slot in the "A" pillar, but the small cable that connected the pointer to the left flap would stick too often so my CFI taught me to count potatoes instead. I took my check ride in this same 172 and the DPE got a good laugh out of me telling him flap position in "potatoes". :D

After a decade of flying a Cherokee with Johnson bar flaps, I'd all but forgotten about how this until I started flying RVs with electric flaps and instantly began counting potatoes again.:p
 
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Potatoes

Neal@F14 said:
I count potatoes to know how much flaps I'm putting down.
I start counting as soon as I press the switch down.

One potato Two potato (let up on switch) gives me a little over 10 degrees, not quite as far as matching the same position as full down aileron, which would be just about 15 degrees.

One potato two potato three potato four -- gives me about 25 degrees of flaps.

Six and a half potatoes gives me full flaps, and you can hear the flap servo reach the end of its travel.

The old C172 I took most of my lessons in had the same sort of momentary contact spring loaded flap switch like our RVs (except it was flap shaped) and the flap indicator was a mechanical pointer that moved up and down in a vertical slot in the "A" pillar, but the small cable that connected the pointer to the left flap would stick too often so my CFI taught me to count potatoes instead. I took my check ride in this same 172 and the DPE got a good laugh out of me telling him flap position in "potatoes". :D

After a decade of flying a Cherokee with Johnson bar flaps, I'd all but forgotten about how this until I started flying RVs with electric flaps and instantly began counting potatoes again.:p
Click to expand...

That's funny.
I learned on potatoes too! On a Cessna, it was the only way to do it in the dark.
 
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