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RV-8 forced landing, Wilcox, AZ (March 17, 2017)

Good thinking

Rob, pretty good thinking for an Aggie. :D




Longhorn85
 
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Engine out

If I might address an important step in this whole process:
If you ever experience severe vibration....KILL the engine first, before doing anything else. Had this happen to me In a Baby Ace 2 yrs ago ( prop delamination )......at 1500' after takeoff. Didn't kill the engine. Landed, but lucky to be alive....engine mount barely stayed together....broken in multiple places. Only a bit of skill, a lot of luck, and most importantly, the good Lord kept me alive that day. Marvin
 
I have been thinking about this post a bit today, and (because the internet and what's put out there lasts forever) I would like to post an alternative viewpoint to this kind of flight testing.

Generally, I'm against shutting down an engine for "test" reasons if not needed, especially if it's the only one installed on the aircraft. For whatever reason, if you do so and it fails to restart, you've just turned your "simulated" emergency into the real deal...and you did it to yourself, to boot.

An old flying buddy tells me when ideas like this occur to me to think "How will what I did sound, from the FAA investigation backwards."

While it might appear that the risks might be low due to proximity to the airport, runway length, etc., it's the unplanned, can't happen "stuff" that somehow occurs that can suddenly take you someplace you never thought you'd end up. If the engine doesn't restart, stress levels will go up (a lot) and the calm, logical computing device your brain was up till this point will likely go into abacus mode and probably be somewhere in airspace 5 disbelieving minutes behind your current location.

And for what? A datapoint, that, all things being equal was probably already possessed (either from this website or flight test at idle) and was close enough to being "real life" useful to negate any gain vs the risk taken.

If really wanting to fly and learn what it's like to land without a motor is what's desired, my suggestion is that the safest avenue would be to reach out to a glider club with an older, early generation glider like a SGS 2-33 or something similar.

Schedule several flights with their biggest, fattest instructor and put as much ballast weight in as the gross weight allows. Go out on a hot day, take a 3000' (or more) tow over the airport, release, and fully deploy the spoilers and leave them out till landing (or until the IP says otherwise.) Spiral down, set up your high and low key and see how well you do spotting the landing. Safe, great fun, and you help the local glider club stay solvent.

While I'm not sure the 2-33 will quite have matching glide performance as an engine-out RV, I'm betting it will be a reasonable enough simulation (the 2-33 is a pretty doggy glider) to be close. The head game you'll play trading off altitude, pattern location and landing spot will keep your Mark I/Mod 0 CPU plenty busy enough not to notice the difference is what I'll bet. Do it 2 or 3 times in a day, and you'll be done and ready for a beer.

It will boost your confidence in your being able to plan and execute a successful off-field landing if it became necessary, and at much less risk to yourself, the aircraft you've worked so hard to complete and the family that wants you to come home after playing with your pride and joy.

Off my soapbox.

Point taken.......I researched the dead engine vs idling engine rate of descents (threads) until I was blue in the face and only came up with conflicting reports. I needed to confirm my descent rate so I could have peace of mind and confidence in my emergency procedure. It was a calculated risk and one piece of Data I didn't want to learn someday with my wife or grandchild sitting next to me. I think calm and composure is the key to surviving an emergency like this and now I have a little more of both.
 
Prop

If I might address an important step in this whole process:
If you ever experience severe vibration....KILL the engine first, before doing anything else. Had this happen to me In a Baby Ace 2 yrs ago ( prop delamination )......at 1500' after takeoff. Didn't kill the engine. Landed, but lucky to be alive....engine mount barely stayed together....broken in multiple places. Only a bit of skill, a lot of luck, and most importantly, the good Lord kept me alive that day. Marvin
Many years ago in a similar scenario this kind of thinking very likely saved the life of myself and my passenger. Without going into details i was midfield on a 3200'runway about 10 feet off the ground at Vne. There was a sudden violent vibration. My immediate thought was broken prop. I closed the throttle and pulled up near vertical. The vibration stopped immediately. At about 500' I recovered to level flight and very slowly added a bit of power. No vibration. I then tested the controls and found that one aileron did not move. AILERON FLUTTER. I believe to this day that had I not reacted almost instantaneously the airplane would have come apart. The only damage was a broken aileron bellcrank.
Why was I so prepared to do what I did as well as shutting down the engine if necessary? Because I was a "student" of the Midget/Formula 1 racing airplanes and this was the ONLY option for dealing with a broken prop-an all too frequent occurance on the racers.
There is another scenario that is just as potentially dangerous-exhaust failure. The ONLY safe option with an exhaust failure is to shut off the fuel and secure the engine. If you got away with continuing to an airport miles away you have used up about two feet of your lifetime yardstick of good luck.
A certain HRII pilot would likely be alive today if he had shut off the fuel IMMEDIATELY.
 
The circumstances of an engine failure are variable and unpredictable.

It is impossible to plan for it except fly the airplane, do not panic letting it slow and stall trying to avoid descending. Maintain glide speed whatever you determine it to be. There probably won't be many choices to land. Pick a spot and fly to or into it. The chances of surviving are good.

Stall and spin, the chances of surviving are zero.

And AMEN to dealing with vibration. That has to be dealt with immediately. Had an exhaust pipe failure with pusher that took out prop, vibration was horrific. Some special force made my hand pull the mixture immediately, did not even think about it.
 
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Good advice, David.

Many, many years ago on a cross-country in my Cessna 180 a severe vibration accompanied by a windshield covered with black oil and oil pressure/oil temp indications rapidly heading the wrong way was a real attention-getter causing me to start pulling everything back and pitching up until I was assured the stopped prop was intact.

Fortunately, I had enough altitude to make it to an airport (Norman, OK) with no other difficulties other than having to land peeping thru the open side window. Turned out to be a piston failure apparently on the compression stroke blowing off the oil filler cap thereby dumping over 10 quarts on my windshield.

Not my first unscheduled letdown nor my last but proves rarely does any inflight emergency fit any previously rehearsed set of procedures except fly the airplane first and save the troubleshooting until the airplane is safely back on the ground.
 
First chance to do some trouble shooting for the cause of the engine out. I drrained 6 qts of oil from the engine. Took out the oil screen. It was plugged with metal shavings which stopped the oil flow to the engine. Not sure there was anything I could have done to prevent this. I do engine compression checks each annual condition inspection. I send in an oil sample to a company to do an analysis of the oil with each oil change. Nothing has been out of the ordinary. Bill
 
I drained 6 qts of oil from the engine. Took out the oil screen. It was plugged with metal shavings which stopped the oil flow to the engine. Not sure there was anything I could have done to prevent this. I do engine compression checks each annual condition inspection. I send in an oil sample to a company to do an analysis of the oil with each oil change. Nothing has been out of the ordinary. Bill

Bill ... Glad to hear you made it to Terra firma safely. It's unfortunate your oil analysis tests showed no indications of any problems brewing inside your engine. Please keep us all posted regarding the cause of all that metal when you finally determine the root of the problem.
 
https://foreflight.com/support/vide...=whats-new&_ga=1.91804185.28137011.1399059307
watch
 
Yes and the G3X the same, I just watch the ForeFlight video and it made me think of this thread, very useful if one does not have the luxury of either G3X or Dynon but has the Ipad handy.
 
First chance to do some trouble shooting for the cause of the engine out. I drrained 6 qts of oil from the engine. Took out the oil screen. It was plugged with metal shavings which stopped the oil flow to the engine. Not sure there was anything I could have done to prevent this. I do engine compression checks each annual condition inspection. I send in an oil sample to a company to do an analysis of the oil with each oil change. Nothing has been out of the ordinary. Bill

Hey Bill, what was the cause of your failure?
 
Engine

Thanks for the report. Congrats on successful outcome. Please post more info when the cause is determined. Thanks.


Don Broussard
RV9 Rebuild in Progress
57 Pacer
 
Engine shutdown

Not a fan of engine shutdown, aircooled cylinders
getting colder then quick start up and wonder why
my pistons and cylinders are scuffed up, mmmmm?
 
Shutdown

And I know this is an old post, but you
should never stop being congratulated
on a successful emergency landing that
you or your crew can walk away from.
Well done!
 
I own this plane now.

Absolutely Love it.

I'd post some pictures but have no idea how to do it, most forums just let you attach from pics on the computer, not this one. [ed. Congrats on your RV’s return to the skies and thanks for closing the loop on this. RE: the images, if you can fly a plane you can easily insert pics. The instructions are linked at the top left of every page in the forums and can be accessed directly here: http://www.vansairforce.net/articles/ImagesInForums/images.htm. I see you have a low post count, so you may not have been aware of the link.

v/r,dr]

 
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good to hear you are ok

Sorry you had issues but really glad you were able to save yourself and the airplane. Will be interested also in the engine analysis. I am an hour away if you need any help with anything.
 
I own this plane now.

Absolutely Love it.

I'd post some pictures but have no idea how to do it, most forums just let you attach from pics on the computer, not this one.

If you really want to learn how, see the tutorial video on my YouTube page. I'd like to see the plane again; glad it's flying, and loved.
 
N46BV is alive and well

Thanks for the link and advise for uploading my photos.

I purchased this RV-8 last fall, from a guy who purchased it from the owner/builder, Bill Anton who had the forced landing. The guy I bought it from only had it for about a month, he told me that he mentioned to his wife that the plane scared him a bit and she said something like 'I'm not getting in it at all", as soon as I saw it on Tradaplane I called him about it.

I don't know the final results on why the original engine failed, but Bill installed a brand new Lycoming Thunderbolt IO-360 and now I have a great plane with 300 hrs. on the engine.

I purchased 2 Aerovonics AV-30's, Trio EZ pilot and Flyleds landing/taxi lights I hope to get all installed next month.

I did my transitional training with Bruce Bohannon, awesome guy! I also removed the chains and installed the steering linkage bar, a massive improvement as far as I'm concerned, a whole different animal on the ground.

Here goes with the pics.

Brian



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That's strange, I can see them when I look at the thread. I myself have difficulty seeing other peoples pics most of the time.

Sorry about that, I did just as the YouTube video showed.
 
Sorry fellas, not sure what's going on. I can see them on my personal and company computers, but not my iPad. That's why I don't like doing it from a web storage site and not directly from my computer. Oh, well.
 
I'd guess a permissions issue with google.
Yes. It has to be in a shared or public folder. I found that out after I made the video. One of my Google Photos folders has always been shared with VAF, but when I tried to share from another photo I had the same problem - I could see the photos here, but no one else could. Doug helped me figure out the problem; now anything I share here has to be in that shared folder.
 
The guy I bought it from only had it for about a month, he told me that he mentioned to his wife that the plane scared him a bit.....

That is an interesting comment by the previous owner but glad he decided to sell if he wasn't ready or able to learn how to fly it. Perhaps an accident was prevented....

Congratulations on your purchase of a beautiful RV-8 and best wishes for many enjoyable years flying it!
 
Wish me luck

OK, I tried using SmugMug as opposed to Google Photos, hope this works. My transition training was easier than this.


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That is an interesting comment by the previous owner but glad he decided to sell if he wasn't ready or able to learn how to fly it. Perhaps an accident was prevented....

Congratulations on your purchase of a beautiful RV-8 and best wishes for many enjoyable years flying it!

Thank you, I'm really enjoying it.

I don't believe the previous owner had any tailwheel time at all, or very little. He and his father flew it to Calif, he mentioned to his wife his landings were scary and that did it for her.
 
Thank you, I'm really enjoying it.

I don't believe the previous owner had any tailwheel time at all, or very little. He and his father flew it to Calif, he mentioned to his wife his landings were scary and that did it for her.

Well...yes.....that could make for scary landings..... ;)
 
May no one have loss of power in flight, but if you do.... may it be over a hard back flat dry dirt road next to a farm with no obstructions... Sweet! BTW when balloonist land in a farmers field it is tradition to give them a bottle of champagne.

What was the reason for engine loss of power?

PS Wife on board.... so when will it be for sale??????? Message me. :D
 
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I was providing ATC flight following to this pilot when his emergency happened. He did a great job of communicating his situation and obviously of making an engine out landing safely. I was VERY VERY relieved when I heard he was safely on the ground. Good job!

Kudos to you Craig for being a huge part of that outcome. Recently, I flew out to ABQ for the first time and was highly impressed with the ATC service. I take every opportunity to remind our folks here of the assistance we can provide in situations just like you experienced. ZOB-Cleveland Center
 
May no one have loss or power in flight, but if you do.... may it be over a hard back flat dry dirt road next to a farm with no obstructions... Sweet! BTW when balloonist land in a farmers field it is tradition to give them a bottle of champagne.

What was the reason for engine loss of power?

PS Wife on board.... so when will it be for sale??????? Message me. :D

Not very likely, sorry. She's taking lessons and just about ready to solo.
 
I saw this tread just now, and WELL DONE to getting the plane safely on the ground!
Thanks also for the pics showing the beautiful -8 back in the air!

I didn't see anywhere in the tread the reason for the engine failure? Or maybe it's written there and I didn't see it?

Regarding shutting down the engine for practice forced landings, I never do that. Instead, I put down t/o flaps. Then an aircraft with idling engine has approx the same drag as an aircraft with a windmilling engine.
I learned about this here on VAF years ago and I've done it since then when I practice engine out landings.

Also; in my engine out forced landing checklist, I've another item: prop control (C/S-prop) full coarse. (pulled fully out)
During testing in phase 1, I found that VVI went from 900fpm (blue knob full fwd) to 600fpm (blue knob fully aft)
That should give me approx 30% (!) more time in the air during an actual engine failure.

I never tested this with the engine shut down, I only tested it with the engine at idle.

Has anyone done this test with an engine shut down? If so; what was your findings?

Can anyone confirm this: that the sinkrate will decrease with a prop to coarse?

Thanks.
 
I never tested this with the engine shut down, I only tested it with the engine at idle.

Has anyone done this test with an engine shut down? If so; what was your findings?

Can anyone confirm this: that the sinkrate will decrease with a prop to coarse?

Thanks.

Peter Lert has; he learned from Burt Rutan that if you can stop the prop, your drag will decrease significantly. He has done it successfully during an actual engine failure. Peter has written about it, and also discussed it with Jason Miller on his podcast The Finer Points Of Flying.
 
I saw this tread just now, and WELL DONE to getting the plane safely on the ground!
Thanks also for the pics showing the beautiful -8 back in the air!

I didn't see anywhere in the tread the reason for the engine failure? Or maybe it's written there and I didn't see it?

Regarding shutting down the engine for practice forced landings, I never do that. Instead, I put down t/o flaps. Then an aircraft with idling engine has approx the same drag as an aircraft with a windmilling engine.
I learned about this here on VAF years ago and I've done it since then when I practice engine out landings.

Also; in my engine out forced landing checklist, I've another item: prop control (C/S-prop) full coarse. (pulled fully out)
During testing in phase 1, I found that VVI went from 900fpm (blue knob full fwd) to 600fpm (blue knob fully aft)
That should give me approx 30% (!) more time in the air during an actual engine failure.

I never tested this with the engine shut down, I only tested it with the engine at idle.

Has anyone done this test with an engine shut down? If so; what was your findings?

Can anyone confirm this: that the sinkrate will decrease with a prop to coarse?

Thanks.

Sink rate definitely decreases with prop to coarse (low rpm) on my RV-4 with IO-360 Hartzell CS.
 
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