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Just started RV12is

Jyuma

Active Member
Hello, my name is Ed... I just received my first shipment from Vans... an RV12is empennage kit. As luck would have it there was damage during shipment but Vans has been nothing short of terrific in their response. I hope to begin fabrication efforts tomorrow morning. I've already got most of the tools I'll need but I'm a bit concerned about dimpling. I assume the DRDT-2 is the way to go but at almost 500 bucks it's a bit out of reach at the moment. Are there any used units to be found?
Thanks.
 
You?ll need a hand riveter as not all parts can be bench riveted. You?ll need to install some on the sub assemblies, which can?t be lifted or positioned on a bench.
 
Hello, my name is Ed... I just received my first shipment from Vans... an RV12is empennage kit. As luck would have it there was damage during shipment but Vans has been nothing short of terrific in their response. I hope to begin fabrication efforts tomorrow morning. I've already got most of the tools I'll need but I'm a bit concerned about dimpling. I assume the DRDT-2 is the way to go but at almost 500 bucks it's a bit out of reach at the moment. Are there any used units to be found?
Thanks.

There is a good recommended tools list in the front of the manual (section 3 maybe?)
A dimpling tool is not one of the things on the list because the only dimpling you will have to do on an RV-12 can be done with the recommended 3 ? reach hand rivet squeezer.
 
What do you mean by hand riveter? Do you mean a pneumatic squeezer? If so, I already have one.

Most of the rivets in the RV12 are pop rivets. I received 2 boxes of pop rivets, one box contains 10,000 rivets and the other at least 2,000. Thankfully the instructions said I didn't need to count them.

Thanks
 
There is a good recommended tools list in the front of the manual (section 3 maybe?)
A dimpling tool is not one of the things on the list because the only dimpling you will have to do on an RV-12 can be done with the recommended 3 ? reach hand rivet squeezer.

Thanks so much... what a relief. I have been watching Jason Ellis' YouTube videos on his RV10 build and he spent many hours dimpling. What a relief I don't need to spend an additional $500 on a dimpling machine, but on my next build, the RV-14, I'm guessing I'll need one then.
 
What do you mean by hand riveter? Do you mean a pneumatic squeezer? If so, I already have one.

Most of the rivets in the RV12 are pop rivets. I received 2 boxes of pop rivets, one box contains 10,000 rivets and the other at least 2,000. Thankfully the instructions said I didn't need to count them.

Thanks

An RV-12 can be built with just a hand rivet squeezer ( a manual version of a pneumatic squeezer).
What you may be talking about is a pneumatic rivet puller for blind rivets. If so, you will also need a rivet squeezer for setting solid AN rivets for installation of nut plates, etc.
I suggest you take a look at the tool list in the manual. It would be considered the minimum that you will need. For a visual of what some of the tools are look at some of the tool supplier web sites.
 
Search Aircraft Spruce for "12-01467". The DIMPLE DIE SET is used with a hand rivet squeezer.
The good news is that you do not need a $500 dimpling machine.
The bad news is that it will still cost you almost as much to buy a Main Squeeze Kit SCHKITW
from Cleveland Tools along with rivet dies.
Some builders buy another cheap squeezer for use only with the dimple dies.
Having two squeezers saves a lot of time changing dies.
 
What do you mean by hand riveter? Do you mean a pneumatic squeezer? If so, I already have one.

Most of the rivets in the RV12 are pop rivets. I received 2 boxes of pop rivets, one box contains 10,000 rivets and the other at least 2,000. Thankfully the instructions said I didn't need to count them.

Thanks

As others have translated for me, technically I should have said ?hand rivet squeezer?, which utilizes rivet and dimpling dies.
 
Welcome to VAF, and Congratulations

Hello, my name is Ed... I just received my first shipment from Vans... an RV12is empennage kit.

Ed, welcome aboard the good ship VAF, congrats on getting you feet wet :D:D:D
 
Will need more dies than the tool set recommends

Ed - you'll also need a 120 degree dimple die for the CS4-4 rivets (flush pull rivets) and another set for size 6 screws. They might not be in the list of tools to get.
 
If it makes you feel any better, my first crate (tail) was damaged.. About $400 worth of replacement parts. Luckily I still had enough good parts to keep me busy for awhile.

The carrier was Old Dominion.. the wing and fuse kits came later by the same carrier and were OK. Its just what happens when an underpaid new dock worker runs his forklift into the side of the crate. Van's was really responsive and provided all the papers I needed to submit a claim.

Unfortunately, the "crating charge" cost of $75? or so was NOT covered by the carrier. So I did have to pay a little out of pocket.

rv12damage.jpg
 
If it makes you feel any better, my first crate (tail) was damaged.. About $400 worth of replacement parts. Luckily I still had enough good parts to keep me busy for awhile.

The carrier was Old Dominion.. the wing and fuse kits came later by the same carrier and were OK. Its just what happens when an underpaid new dock worker runs his forklift into the side of the crate. Van's was really responsive and provided all the papers I needed to submit a claim.

Unfortunately, the "crating charge" cost of $75? or so was NOT covered by the carrier. So I did have to pay a little out of pocket.

rv12damage.jpg

I guess I'm not alone in the damaged shipment department. When the driver delivered the crate he asked me if I had anything he could use to help drag the crate out to the lift on the back of the truck. He said that whoever loaded the crate must have pushed it in with a fork lift because the crate was in the truck the long way. There was a stencil warning spray painted on the side of the crate saying "no push" and I mentioned it to the driver but he said nothing. At that point there wasn't much I could do as the crate showed no sign of damage at all. It wasn't until I unloaded the crate that I saw there was damage to the skins inside. When I finished unpacking the crate and stood it up on it's side to move it out of the way is when I saw the reason for the damage to the skins inside, but by that time the driver was long gone. The fork from the fork lift had found the seem between the side panel and the bottom plywood. It was one of those things that makes you shake your head in disbelief. The fork slide right into the crate without damaging it, and when the fork lift drive backed away the fork just slid back out leaving no trace of external damage.
Lesson learned... before signing for the shipment make a note "Subject to inspection".
 
I have a dumb question...

On page 6-04 step 3 it says to machine countersink the four #40 holes in VS-1212-B-R & -L. However, the countersink cage diameter is too big to allow it to reach the 2 holes closest to the flange. Obviously there must be a way to do it or it woudn't be on the plans.

Are the 2 holes closest to the flange supposed to be countersunk using a different tool? Sorry if it's a dumb question but I've never build an airplane before.
 
Pneu rivet puller

Harber freight has a great and inexpensive puller and battey drills, two pullers one fir each size rivet and 2or3 drills so when batteries run down no waiting.
 
I have a dumb question...

On page 6-04 step 3 it says to machine countersink the four #40 holes in VS-1212-B-R & -L. However, the countersink cage diameter is too big to allow it to reach the 2 holes closest to the flange. Obviously there must be a way to do it or it woudn't be on the plans.

Are the 2 holes closest to the flange supposed to be countersunk using a different tool? Sorry if it's a dumb question but I've never build an airplane before.

In some cases I found it necessary to simply use a hole deburring tool and slowly countersink the hole, periodically checking with a river to determine when I had gone deep enough.
 
"On page 6-04 step 3 it says to machine countersink the four #40 holes in VS-1212-B-R & -L. However, the countersink cage diameter is too big to allow it to reach the 2 holes closest to the flange. Obviously there must be a way to do it or it woudn't be on the plans.

Are the 2 holes closest to the flange supposed to be countersunk using a different tool?"

Here are a couple of ways to do the above: 1) Get a second countersink and cut away @ 1/2 of the cage foot. 2) Get a straight screw-on extension and attach just the countersink cutter to the end. 3) As noted above by Bob, make the countersink by carefully using your deburring tool -- assuming that it has the standard cutter-type CS head.
 
I simply remove the "cage" and freehand the countersink going very slowly.
 
I simply remove the "cage" and freehand the countersink going very slowly.

I took a hand countersink and did the 2 #40 holes near the flange. These rivets hold the nut plates and that's all they need to do. Probably not the most critical attachment I'll be making on this plane.

I think I'll buy another 1 or 2 countersink cages and set them up for various sizes. PITA to keep changing the adjustment.
 
I'm new to the forum and am making preparations to start a 12iS build, so this thread is of special interest. I've looked at the Milwaukee M12 cordless riveter at my local Home Depot. It looks to be a high quality tool. Would I still need a hand rivet puller and/or a pneumatic riveter if I make the investment in the Milwaukee tool?
 
There were several tight areas where I needed a hand riveter with a rotating head to get into some tight spaces. I used the Harbor Freight model and it works well. Also, when building the fuel tank the instructions recommended a hand riveter to more slowly pull the rivets coated with fuel tank sealant to get a better seal. And due to the mess of the tank sealant, you probably don?t want to get all that sealant on your Milwaukee riveter. Just my experiences.
 
There were several tight areas where I needed a hand riveter with a rotating head to get into some tight spaces. I used the Harbor Freight model and it works well. Also, when building the fuel tank the instructions recommended a hand riveter to more slowly pull the rivets coated with fuel tank sealant to get a better seal. And due to the mess of the tank sealant, you probably don?t want to get all that sealant on your Milwaukee riveter. Just my experiences.

You may be making too much out of the riveting issue. I'm in the early stages of the emp build, just starting to rivet the skins, but so far all of my fears about riveting and what tool to use have evaporated. I'm not saying that I won't run into some special circumstances down the road but so far all that I've needed is my cheap Arrow hand squeeze model RH200 pop rivet tool and some Advil. :)

I did buy a hand squeezer for standard rivets and a set of dies for my pneumatic rivet squeezer, had it for at least 30 years and it still works great. I don't know the manufacturer but it has the overlapping letters CP in a circle embossed on the side. This is not a tool to be trifled with.

Good luck with your build. I'll be rooting for you.
 
You may be making too much out of the riveting issue. I'm in the early stages of the emp build, just starting to rivet the skins, but so far all of my fears about riveting and what tool to use have evaporated. I'm not saying that I won't run into some special circumstances down the road but so far all that I've needed is my cheap Arrow hand squeeze model RH200 pop rivet tool and some Advil. :)

I did buy a hand squeezer for standard rivets and a set of dies for my pneumatic rivet squeezer, had it for at least 30 years and it still works great. I don't know the manufacturer but it has the overlapping letters CP in a circle embossed on the side. This is not a tool to be trifled with.

Good luck with your build. I'll be rooting for you.


I’m not sure if I read this right but if you meant to say you are going to pull 15000 rivets with a hand puller, you will end up with carpal tunnel.

You definitely need a puller with the rotatable head when you get to the fuselage. You’ll also want a pneumatic puller. The compressor for this need not be huge but once you are running a compressor you might as well get a 30 gallon or so to run all your air tools. I bought a Kobalt 26 gallon super silent at Lowe’s for $300 and it is barely large enough for air drills and die grinders. The key is it is quiet enough to tolerate as it will be running with air tools.

I have a Nova 4000 rpm air drill from Pan American Tools for $120 and several Harbor Freight die grinders for deburring with 1 in, 2 in scotchbrite wheels and the small discs. They are about $15 each. Using these in drills was a pain in the butt. I couldn’t find a cordless drill that didn’t have significant runout in the chuck which ruined several pieces of thin aluminum when match drilling. My $180 Dewalt cordless drill was the worst. These are apparently made for carpenters, not metal working.

I know some guys try to get by super cheap on tools. But what’s another $1000 or so when you are spending $80K+ building an airplane. Make the job easier and more enjoyable for yourself.
 
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I?m not sure if I read this right but if you meant to say you are going to pull 15000 rivets with a hand puller, you will end up with carpal tunnel.

You definitely need a puller with the rotatable head when you get to the fuselage. You?ll also want a pneumatic puller. The compressor for this need not be huge but once you are running a compressor you might as well get a 30 gallon or so to run all your air tools. I bought a Kobalt 26 gallon super silent at Lowe?s for $300 and it is barely large enough for air drills and die grinders. The key is it is quiet enough to tolerate as it will be running with air tools.

I have a Nova 4000 rpm air drill from Pan American Tools for $120 and several Harbor Freight die grinders for deburring with 1 in, 2 in scotchbrite wheels and the small discs. They are about $15 each. Using these in drills was a pain in the butt. I couldn?t find a cordless drill that didn?t have significant runout in the chuck which ruined several pieces of thin aluminum when match drilling. My $180 Dewalt cordless drill was the worst. These are apparently made for carpenters, not metal working.

I know some guys try to get by super cheap on tools. But what?s another $1000 or so when you are spending $80K+ building an airplane. Make the job easier and more enjoyable for yourself.

I'll definitely buy a pneumatic puller when it comes time to do the wings and fuselage, I was talking about getting started with the empennage.

I have a 21 gallon compressor and all the usual air tools but I prefer using my cordless drills. I have not experienced the run-out issue you mentioned but I'll keep an eye out for it.
 
I have another dumb question... other than with flush or flat head rivets (where the direction of entry is obvious), when the plans call for a round head rivet does it matter what direction you insert the rivet? In most cases it could go in either way, but is there a right way and a wrong way?

Also... on the ribs for the rudder, the last three R-01203-1 main ribs are connected to the R-1202 Spar with pop rivets but again I have the same question. I assume the rivet is entered from the R-1202 Spar side rather than the R-01203-1 Main rib side but the plans don't specify which way.

Thanks.
 
If not specified, the general rule is to locate the factory head, so the round head in your example, is on the side of the thinner material. If both Are the same thickness, aesthetics, or not wanting the shop side to be able to scratch you or snag something, locate the factory head to avoid snags.

And since the rivets will be visible on the spar, locate the factory head on the spar. Same for the rudder hinge brackets - factory heads on the spar side.
 
If not specified, the general rule is to locate the factory head, so the round head in your example, is on the side of the thinner material. If both Are the same thickness, aesthetics, or not wanting the shop side to be able to scratch you or snag something, locate the factory head to avoid snags.

And since the rivets will be visible on the spar, locate the factory head on the spar. Same for the rudder hinge brackets - factory heads on the spar side.

Thanks for the tip. It looks like I got it half right. I assembled it with the factory head on the spar side on the lower control horn, but the shop head on the upper hinge brackets. It was just easier that way.

When I pop riveted the stub spar I did it the way you suggested because I figured it would show and the head would look better than the tail... just like the pop rivets in the skins.

Thanks again for you much appreciated help. :)
 
Total disclosure - I did the same as you on the hinge brackets for the same reason. They were the first rivets I got experience in removal. You?ll likely get a lot more before you?re done!
 
Total disclosure - I did the same as you on the hinge brackets for the same reason. They were the first rivets I got experience in removal. You?ll likely get a lot more before you?re done!

Other than esthetics, is there a structural reason why the rivets holding the hinge brackets should be inserted with the factory head on the spar side?
My rudder is complete, including the skinsl, I would prefer not having to rebuild the rudder.
 
Every effort has been made to correctly specify a specific fastener (rivet, bolt, etc.) orientation if one is required for some reason (structural, clearance, etc.).
If no specific orientation of a fastener is specified, then it is builders choice based on aesthetics, best practice, etc.
 
Every effort has been made to correctly specify a specific fastener (rivet, bolt, etc.) orientation if one is required for some reason (structural, clearance, etc.).
If no specific orientation of a fastener is specified, then it is builders choice based on aesthetics, best practice, etc.

Thanks. In hindsight it would have looked better with the factory head showing
but how often is anyone (other than me) going to be looking inside the rudder at the opening where the hinge bracket rivets live?

p.s. I brought the completed rudder to the dinner table tonight and sat it down in the chair next to me... my wife thinks I'm loosing my mind. She may be right.
 
Someone please jog my memory.

I was certain that I ordered an adjustable (can't remember what it's called) for my CP pneumatic squeezer. It's the thing that goes into the business end of the squeezer that you adjust by turning it. It eliminates the need to use washers under the anvils to adjust the squeeze distance.

The non-adjustable one that's currently in my squeezer is 2 1/2" long and so was the replacement I found that I thought I ordered but I can't find the order anyplace and no part has shown up.

Does anybody know the name of the part and where to get it. I feel like an idiot because I found the exact thing I need and now I can't find it again.

Thanks
 
Adjustable set holder like this...
https://www.aircraftspruce.com/catalog/topages/setholder.php

Must have! You'll be spending way too much time shimming otherwise. Make sure whatever you order will work with YOUR squeezer, I think they might be manufacturer-specific.

That's the one I ordered. The other one was over $100 bucks, the Aircraft Spruce price was $85.

The measurements agree with what's in there now. Same width, same length. :)
 
bTw... had my first "must" drill rivets out today. When mounting the AST control horn, when I got the the last of the 5 rivets something went wrong (probably me) and the control horn got bent. I tried to fix it without drilling out the 4 rivets that were already installed but no joy. I ended up drilling out all 5 rivets and benching the control horn back into shape. Reinstall went without any problems.

It's almost as if you gotta first screw things up, learn how not to do it, and then do it right. Oh well...reworking a part is a way better remedy than convincing yourself that sub-par work is good enough.

On that note: When is final drill not required? Take the skins on the AST for example. All the holes are factory punched in both the skin and the ribs (except for the 4 closest to the trialing edge), in that case, is final drill unnecessary?
 
Unless you feel a bur on them, the match drilled holes from Vans aren?t supposed to need deburring, but you?ll find threads in this forum arguing for and against the need to do so. Personally, I used a reamer to enlarge any holes that didn?t allow the river to fit through any match drilled holes that needed persuading.
 
more tools

Ed - for removing rivets I've found these two tools are a real time and mistake saver

Rivet Removal Tool

https://www.northerntool.com/shop/t...MIsr3I8_Kd4QIVB1cMCh37Gwh4EAQYASABEgJ0OPD_BwE

There are more expensive versions of this but this one worked for me pretty good. And you also need a good spring loaded punch like this;

https://www.amazon.com/Neiko-02638A...+loaded+punch&qid=1553538047&s=gateway&sr=8-3


After awhile you will get almost at good removing rivets as installing them!
 
Ed - for removing rivets I've found these two tools are a real time and mistake saver

Rivet Removal Tool

https://www.northerntool.com/shop/t...MIsr3I8_Kd4QIVB1cMCh37Gwh4EAQYASABEgJ0OPD_BwE

There are more expensive versions of this but this one worked for me pretty good. And you also need a good spring loaded punch like this;

https://www.amazon.com/Neiko-02638A...+loaded+punch&qid=1553538047&s=gateway&sr=8-3


After awhile you will get almost at good removing rivets as installing them!

I never really had a problem removing rivets the old fashioned way... drill.
I already have the spring loaded punch.

I'm afraid that if I buy another tool SWMBO will start adding things up... they keep score you know. I need to save my best grovelling for the fuselage kit. :)

Thanks.
 
I never really had a problem removing rivets the old fashioned way... drill.

Ed - the big difference with the pull vs solid rivets is that every so often you will hit the mandrel thats still in the rivet and opps there goes a bad hole. I found out that the hard way. I typically try to first drill them out but if I cant get a good grab on the rivet that tool is a real opps saver.
 
You are supposed to punch out the steel mandrel first, before drilling out the rivet. Get a cheap automatic center punch and grind the center pin down to a diameter that will fit the pop-rivet's center hole. Works great. To avoid spinning the rivet in its hole, use a light/deft touch and relatively high drill speed. Occasionally it may be necessary to grab the shop end of the rivet with a pair of pliers or small needle-nose vice-grips to prevent spinning of the rivet.
 
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