Van's Air Force
Don't miss anything! Register now for full access to the definitive RV support community.
Elevator and Rudder Last Rivet
- Thread starter 330Jock
- Start date
rib rivets closest to trailing edge
I left these open because I haven't figured out yet how to get a good 'something' in there for the set. Don't have the special narrow vise-grips to get it started enough to then put a narrow yoke or anything on them...yet. Will be interested to see/hear how others did it. If you're waiting on these, move on, make a reminder so you'll come back to them (you probably will anyway once you start on the fiberglass work) and continue production!
I left these open because I haven't figured out yet how to get a good 'something' in there for the set. Don't have the special narrow vise-grips to get it started enough to then put a narrow yoke or anything on them...yet. Will be interested to see/hear how others did it. If you're waiting on these, move on, make a reminder so you'll come back to them (you probably will anyway once you start on the fiberglass work) and continue production!
I put a rivet in the hole and placed the assembly on a back riveting plate. I then used a piece of steel about 1/8 x 3 x 1 1/2" laying the edge on the rivet. I then used a flush rivet set to hammer on the flat steel piece as close to the rivet as possible. It worked great. Take your time setting up and/or get someone to help you hold things in place.
these are the last three in the trailing edge/ rib... pretty tight in there for the 3.5 rivets. There are three options. 1. Solid rivet / chizel back rivet method. 2. $200 specialty ungsten bucking bar method. Or 3. As per the plans mk-319-bs monel pull rivets. All are good options. Depends on your drive as to your selection. Let me know if you want solid rivets in there. I think I have the tungsten bar part number from yard store.:
JB-weld holds up a bit better then epoxy/ micro in filling pull rivet mandrel holes .. Or use Hysol structural glue. All are acceptable methods. But then again research your steps to suit your taste in finishing. There are several options.... if you are newer builder, PLEASE research each step and think about it a bit before making a move. Remember the first section of the preview plans. Most builders research as much as they build.
I modified a bucking bar such as Avery tools #620. The rivet head can be a bit proud when you start driving the rivet. The first thing that happens when you set a rivet is the shank swells to fill the hole. A dimpled hole is substantually larger than #40 so quite a bit of kength is used up to first fill the hole. Try this on practice sheet metal and you will see how proud the rivet can be when you start to set the rivet.
Ray RV9A 90% done with 70% to go
Ray RV9A 90% done with 70% to go
longranger
Well Known Member
BSwayze
Well Known Member
Dimpling, too!
The problem of reaching in to those narrow places doesn't just happen when riveting. It's hard to dimple those holes, too. I found that I didn't have anything that would allow me to get my dimple dies in there and do the dimpling. Even a pop-rivet dimpler won't work because it's so narrow in there, you can't get the nail in there and through the hole, and out again when you're finished. So I got a little creative with this, and I'll share my method here with anyone who is interested.
Before I started my project I bought a set of bucking bars that included the one seen in this first picture. It came in very handy throughout the build. This is the tool set-up that I used for this job. Besides the bucking bar I mentioned, you can see my rivet gun, my pop-rivet dimple die set, and a few holes out at the end of the rib that need dimpling.
Next, I cut a nail short, so I could get it in there and through the die and through the hole in the rib. If you get the length of the cut-off nail just right, it will be long enough to hold the dies together, but not long enough to protrude through the other die on the outside of the rib. You'll see below why this is important:
Here, you can see the concave die inserted in place inside the rib. The short nail is through the hole:
Then, you put the other die in place, and use the rivet gun and bucking bar to hammer a nice dimple:
All finished! This actually worked out very well. Just to make sure I had a good dimple, I used my countersink cutter and cage to touch up these holes. That probably wasn't necessary. I observed that the cutter removed only a very tiny amount of material.
The problem of reaching in to those narrow places doesn't just happen when riveting. It's hard to dimple those holes, too. I found that I didn't have anything that would allow me to get my dimple dies in there and do the dimpling. Even a pop-rivet dimpler won't work because it's so narrow in there, you can't get the nail in there and through the hole, and out again when you're finished. So I got a little creative with this, and I'll share my method here with anyone who is interested.
Before I started my project I bought a set of bucking bars that included the one seen in this first picture. It came in very handy throughout the build. This is the tool set-up that I used for this job. Besides the bucking bar I mentioned, you can see my rivet gun, my pop-rivet dimple die set, and a few holes out at the end of the rib that need dimpling.
Next, I cut a nail short, so I could get it in there and through the die and through the hole in the rib. If you get the length of the cut-off nail just right, it will be long enough to hold the dies together, but not long enough to protrude through the other die on the outside of the rib. You'll see below why this is important:
Here, you can see the concave die inserted in place inside the rib. The short nail is through the hole:
Then, you put the other die in place, and use the rivet gun and bucking bar to hammer a nice dimple:
All finished! This actually worked out very well. Just to make sure I had a good dimple, I used my countersink cutter and cage to touch up these holes. That probably wasn't necessary. I observed that the cutter removed only a very tiny amount of material.
LettersFromFlyoverCountry
Well Known Member
Like Bruce, dimpled with the pop rivet dimpler.
I squeezed using a no-hole yoke in a TATCO squeezer.
I squeezed using a no-hole yoke in a TATCO squeezer.
JurgenRoeland
Well Known Member
Just put in a MK319-BS pop rivet. Its really not worth the hassle with special methods that give you the risk of screwing up and messing up having to drill out in this thight spot. I tried some techniques and always was not happy with the result.
I used the Indirect Riveting Techinque a couple of time on test pieces but never got the same result as in the video on the EAA site.
Vans also puts the same pop rivets in the flap assembly at unreachable places. (see DWG14-A) at the top right of the plan. i did the same on the last rivet on the other side of the flap as it's almost unreachable by normal bucking or squeezer yoke. If you don't like the little hole in the rivet for beauty reasons, you can always put some filler in there at the end before painting. But believe me, you won't be that critical anymore 5 years from now
Have fun building
I used the Indirect Riveting Techinque a couple of time on test pieces but never got the same result as in the video on the EAA site.
Vans also puts the same pop rivets in the flap assembly at unreachable places. (see DWG14-A) at the top right of the plan. i did the same on the last rivet on the other side of the flap as it's almost unreachable by normal bucking or squeezer yoke. If you don't like the little hole in the rivet for beauty reasons, you can always put some filler in there at the end before painting. But believe me, you won't be that critical anymore 5 years from now
Have fun building
Last edited:
Yep. That's what I did. Quick, easy, and effective.
Flyin'Bryan
Well Known Member
+ 1 of at least a 100, or 1000, or maybe more......
After attempting to make my own custom bar and also watching the EAA homebuilt videos for both close quarter riveting and dimpling using the Cleaveland Tools close quarter dimpling tool shown here, I have used the Cleaveland Tool numerous times to make the dimples in these tight areas, and also used the mk 319 bs pop rivets. Click on the pic in the link for a much bigger and better view. You will need two items from Cleaveland unless you already have their C-Frame tool, which already comes with the .401 rivet set that you can insert into your rivet gun:
.401 rivet set for holding the male dimple die
Close Quarter tool with female die (the bar)
The .401 shank that holds the male dimple die inserts into your rivet gun, and the flat bar tool contains the female dimple die inserted at the tip. Be sure to turn your air pressure way down on the gun and don't bang for too long. (Use practice pieces to get the feel for it first).
One last tip - if you use these tools from Cleaveland, you will find that you may need to grind a small amount of material from the tip of the bar that holds the female dimple die to provide adequate clearance from some of the rib or spar webs on parts with flanges that are not very wide on the elevators and trim tabs, etc.
Searching on the forums here has lots of posts on this topic, with all of the ideas posted thus far, and many many more, including the use of axe blades and other various things to get the job done. The choice is yours.
Git 'er done and build on!
After attempting to make my own custom bar and also watching the EAA homebuilt videos for both close quarter riveting and dimpling using the Cleaveland Tools close quarter dimpling tool shown here, I have used the Cleaveland Tool numerous times to make the dimples in these tight areas, and also used the mk 319 bs pop rivets. Click on the pic in the link for a much bigger and better view. You will need two items from Cleaveland unless you already have their C-Frame tool, which already comes with the .401 rivet set that you can insert into your rivet gun:
.401 rivet set for holding the male dimple die
Close Quarter tool with female die (the bar)
The .401 shank that holds the male dimple die inserts into your rivet gun, and the flat bar tool contains the female dimple die inserted at the tip. Be sure to turn your air pressure way down on the gun and don't bang for too long. (Use practice pieces to get the feel for it first).
One last tip - if you use these tools from Cleaveland, you will find that you may need to grind a small amount of material from the tip of the bar that holds the female dimple die to provide adequate clearance from some of the rib or spar webs on parts with flanges that are not very wide on the elevators and trim tabs, etc.
Searching on the forums here has lots of posts on this topic, with all of the ideas posted thus far, and many many more, including the use of axe blades and other various things to get the job done. The choice is yours.
Git 'er done and build on!
Last edited:
rapid_ascent
Well Known Member
Just a comment on Bruces technique for dimpling. I use a variation with the cut nail with the pop rivet dimpler. I just take my vice grips and squeeze them by hand. You may need to move the vice grips to complete the dimple due to the uneven pressure, but this works like a charm. Its very fast. The only down side is it does tend to chew up the back side of the dimple dies a little.
JurgenRoeland
Well Known Member
MK-319-BS, is my favorite friend in the hardware box.
Not worth the extra money for special bucking bars nor the effort and frustration you spend. Just fill up the pop rivet hole before painting and you won't notice the difference.
Not worth the extra money for special bucking bars nor the effort and frustration you spend. Just fill up the pop rivet hole before painting and you won't notice the difference.
