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  #1  
Old 05-06-2019, 01:53 PM
Toddsanderson Toddsanderson is offline
 
Join Date: Feb 2015
Location: Auburn, IN
Posts: 46
Default Help me think an RV-10/RV-14 Purchase Through

Hi Folks,

I have been a lurker for awhile and might be interested in a 10 or 14, but I need some help. Warning- may be a long post, but appreciate input.

Anyway, first, let me tell you my history wand what I am now looking for. I have been flying for 30 years. I am a CFI, Multi-commercial, etc. Anymore, the majority of my flying is a 900NM trip from NE Indiana to SW FL 10-20 times per year.

Starting about 25 years ago (for the trip mentioned above) I started with a Turbo Saratoga and as the family grew I moved up into Barons, P Barons, and the Dukes. Once the kids went off to college I bought a couple of Glasair IIIs to make this trip since it was just me and my wife. Before purchasing the G3s, my wife developed general anxiety - not just about flying, but just about everything. Flying in just about anything (even when we take a Citation XLS) scares her; however, she is getting better as time goes.

Anyway, back to airplanes So, I absolutely LOVED the Glasair. 214 knots cruise on 12 GPH making the trip about 4:15 non-stop with 2 hours of fuel in reserve! 28 lb/ft wing loading for an exceptional ride, 2500 FPM climbs, descents at 275 knots indicated, yada yada. However, this plane scared my wife to death. It was just too much airplane for her to control (even more so than the Duke) and just scared her. So, I sold the G3 and bought a Cirrus G2 with avidyne upgrade to help her. Long story short, I absolutely HATED the Cirrus. It was a 166 knot airplane on 14.5 GPH which was acceptable, but nothing to get excited about considering how "clean" it was. The seats were hard, the finish cracking everywhere, the wheel pants were a PITA, flap speed too low, and maintenance cost as much, if not more, than my twin pressurized and turbocharged Duke. I was so unimpressed that I sold it 5 months after buying it for a big loss and was never happier to be rid of a plane. Of the 50 aircraft I have owned it was my least favorite. I bought it for the parachute to make the wife comfortable. I thought I could learn to love it - I was wrong.

Anyway, I know the RV10 and 14 have low wing loading and I think I can deal with that by picking days that all less bumpy, but I would like to hear some real world performance numbers and icing experiences. Yes, I know you are not to fly in ice, but let's face it, if you fly IMC in the winter you will find ice. I'm just curious to hear real world experience of how the RV handles the ice. The Glasair did not handle it well and the Cirrus was only slightly better. It had TKS, but it was a bad design on the early 22s.

I read the article posted about a turbo, flutter concerns, and other non approved modifications. It seems than Van has done well by sticking to tried and true methods. With that said, does anyone have real world experience with a turbo RV10 and also with the RDD electric anti-ice? Is there any real world numbers out there with a 300HP engine in the 10 (especially around 14k ft or so?) A little extra power is always nice in the climb on a bumpy day or to climb out of ice. I'm not looking for more top speed.

Finally, it appears the 14 might make more sense as I really don't need the rear seats, but it appears there are not many flying and rarely do they come available.

Thanks in advance for any input
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  #2  
Old 05-06-2019, 02:03 PM
rdrcrmatt rdrcrmatt is offline
 
Join Date: Oct 2014
Location: Milwaukee, WI
Posts: 224
Default

I was told "The RV-10 handles ice well"... Not something I'm interested in finding out. I feel bad even repeating that.

The RDD kit isn't available anymore, I think there might be one flying RV-10 with it (so RDD used to say). I'm trying to come up with another option for deicing. - To everyone - PM me if you haven't already if you're actually interested in TKS, CAV said they'd be willing to design a kit if there was enough interest. I'm keeping a list. After much noodling on it, I think TKS would be the way to go on RVs due to the control horns.

I'd love extra power too, but there's not much room for anything heavier in W&B without adding extra weight in back, but then reducing useful load.


A lot of these things are questions that have been asked time and time again, and then the person asking ends up building a stock, dare I say vanilla, RV-10 that still does everything they need it to.
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CFI / RV-10
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  #3  
Old 05-06-2019, 02:08 PM
Toddsanderson Toddsanderson is offline
 
Join Date: Feb 2015
Location: Auburn, IN
Posts: 46
Default

Hi Matt,

Thank you for the response. Yes, many of these questions have been asked, but the responses I have found is "I would not fly in ice" or "plane will fall apart above xxx speed" I was curious to hear those that have actually flown the plane in ice or have a 300HP or turbo engine.

I like the idea of TKS, but only if it is designed properly. On the Cirrus G2 the panels do not go far enough back on the wing making it essentially ineffective. On my Baron with TKS you could fly through freezing rain. There truly was no comparison. Again, I'm not looking to fly in the ice, just looking for the best tools to get out of it with the most help and power/de-ice usually is the answer.
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  #4  
Old 05-06-2019, 08:09 PM
rdrcrmatt rdrcrmatt is offline
 
Join Date: Oct 2014
Location: Milwaukee, WI
Posts: 224
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Toddsanderson View Post
I like the idea of TKS, but only if it is designed properly. On the Cirrus G2 the panels do not go far enough back on the wing making it essentially ineffective. On my Baron with TKS you could fly through freezing rain. There truly was no comparison. Again, I'm not looking to fly in the ice, just looking for the best tools to get out of it with the most help and power/de-ice usually is the answer.
This is the information I really like learning about deicing equipment, since I have no experience.

The IAS vs TAS issue is real, and is why there are very few RV-10s with high horsepower. Unfortunately, nobody has been willing to tackle the flutter limitations on the RV-10. I, unfortunately, don't have the knowledge to adequately understand what goes into resolving it properly. I know it won't fall apart at 202kias, but I don't have the tools (knowledge, etc) be certain it won't. I'm happy with the plane as it is. I'd love to cruise at 190kias, but not at the $50k higher price it would take over the Lycoming Thunderbolt.

As far as best bang for the buck, IMO you can't beat an RV-10.

Perhaps a custom built 4 cylinder with high HP and turbo normalized to the mid teens would be a fit for what you're looking for. I'm not sure it exists outside of a custom build. Something derived from a TIO-360-C1A6D. Could even do boots with the turbo.

I'm done thinking way outside the box, because I'm sure others will come in to say how terrible all those ideas are.
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  #5  
Old 05-06-2019, 08:38 PM
Toddsanderson Toddsanderson is offline
 
Join Date: Feb 2015
Location: Auburn, IN
Posts: 46
Default

Roger that, thank you for the info.

After talking to a few folks I think the answer is actually a RV-14 with the IO-390. I'm hearing actual cruise speeds of 175 knots on 10 GPH or so. I don't need the rear seats and the light aerobatic capability is a plus also. I'm so spoiled by speed, so it is hard to look at slower planes. The F1 is pretty speedy, but it is getting into the same category as the Glasair in handling and scare factor for the wife.

The 14 and 10 are a nice compromise for safety and speed.

What I would really love to see is a 14 redesigned with high wing loading, 300 HP, and a BRS chute. My wife could care less about how the plane handles as long as she has that magic chute. A 200+ knot 14 that could handle the bumps and had a chute would go over well in my opinion. Then again, it wouldn't be an easy to fly plane for the masses and that is what Van is good at bringing to the market.
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  #6  
Old 05-06-2019, 09:02 PM
rocketman1988 rocketman1988 is offline
 
Join Date: Jun 2010
Location: Sunman, IN
Posts: 1,514
Default $.02

Not to be a nay sayer but looking at your requirements, the RV series may not be what you are looking for. They are great airplanes within their design envelopes but it appears what you want is outside of that envelope.

It would seem that an Epic LT might be more to your liking...or maybe a short body MU-2...just sayin’
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Aerospace Engineer '88

RV-10
Structure - 90% Done
Cabin Top - Aaarrghhh...
EFII System 32 - Done
290 HP Barrett Hung
ShowPlanes Cowl with Skybolts Fitted - Beautiful
Wiring...

Dues Paid 2018,...Thanks DR+
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  #7  
Old 05-07-2019, 02:49 AM
paul330 paul330 is offline
 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: Mpumalanga, South Africa
Posts: 1,031
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I don't think you are going to get 900nm out of either of these aircraft unless you fit extra tanks. I've just done 630nm flight LOP, 10.0 usg/hr, 158kts TAS with a slight tailwind. Just under 4 hours - landed with 17usg.

So, realistically, you are looking at 750nm max
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Mercy Air, White River FAWV
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  #8  
Old 05-07-2019, 05:52 AM
Toddsanderson Toddsanderson is offline
 
Join Date: Feb 2015
Location: Auburn, IN
Posts: 46
Default

I agree guys. The RV-14 is a good compromise. Simple fixed gear, reasonable speeds, simple maintenance, fairly roomy cabin. If I was going back to a critical wing plane it would be a G3. I have no interest in a certified plane as I already have a nice V35 with 300HP.

I will have to make a fuel stop in the RV and that is fine. I like the support the RV has. If anyone sees a nice 14 for sale please let me know. I am patient.

Thank you for the replies!
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  #9  
Old 05-07-2019, 11:24 AM
bizpilot bizpilot is offline
 
Join Date: Sep 2015
Location: Falmouth Airpark, Mass (Cape Cod area)
Posts: 17
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Hi Todd, in our RV14A my only complaint is it needs a side baggage door. We get 172 Kts. TAS at 11ish gph. My neighbors RV10 is as fast or even 3 or 4 kts faster, but burns more. I like the baggage door on the 10 makes loading much easier.
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  #10  
Old 05-07-2019, 12:28 PM
Toddsanderson Toddsanderson is offline
 
Join Date: Feb 2015
Location: Auburn, IN
Posts: 46
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by bizpilot View Post
Hi Todd, in our RV14A my only complaint is it needs a side baggage door. We get 172 Kts. TAS at 11ish gph. My neighbors RV10 is as fast or even 3 or 4 kts faster, but burns more. I like the baggage door on the 10 makes loading much easier.
Hello thank you for that info. I am very use to the Glasair baggage which was much worse than the 14. In the Glasair you had to crawl on the wing as there was no step and then had to shoe horn bags into the rear through the small doors. We carry very few bags anyway as most of our stuff is at our homes.

On the speed I am finding very different opinions. I am hearing a consistent 172-178 knots on the 14 burning 10-12 GPH depending on altitude and power setting and am hearing 152-168 knots on the 10 with burns from 13-18 GPH.

In my Glasair I usually ran around 12-14k ft pulling about 60-62% power and could get the BFSC down to .39 yielding 11.4 to 12 GPH when 20-40 DLOP.

Doing the math on a 14 pulling the same percentage of power should yield 8.5-9 GPH LOP and probably 10.5-12.5 ROP.

The math on a 260 HP 10 woks out to 10.4 GPH 40 DLOP and probably 12-13 ROP, again at 62%. If they are burning 17-18 GPH they have to be way rich and running more than 75%.

Is there anyone getting 170+ knots on a 10 running it LOP?
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