How much work to replace steam with glass?

Hi all!

I'm in the market for a pre-built RV-4 or RV-8. I have certain irreducible minimums (180hp, C/S prop, day/night VFR). I'm looking for an airplane with good structural and engine bones, but my thinking is that the instrumentation can be minimal and steam because before too long I'd want to re-do the cockpit and go glass. I'd rather save money on the instrumentation when I buy and then upgrade with the newest systems later. Also, a steam gauge system is better because I'd rather not have a middle age glass system.

But I wonder how sensible these ideas are and I have a few basic questions. So I came to the best RV web page I know::

Is there a book that discusses this transition, that is good?

Do you end up saving weight over a vaccuum pump driven, steam gauge system?

Do you end up saving complexity over a vaccuum pump driven, steam gauge system?

Aside from money, is there substantial differences in the amount of work if I go IFR glass vs VFR glass?

Can you build and do substantial testing of the new panel outside of the a/c? I'd like to be able to fly it as much as possible before grounding the plane for the final installation and test.

How much work is it, really?

I once considered buying a plane with an O-320 F/P prop and then upgrade later but it turns out that you often have to do substantially more work than I imagined - such as possible substantial cowl work. That's in addition to the other things like installing a MAP gauge and running the prop control back to the cockpit etc. So I gave up on that idea.

I'm wondering if this instrumentation idea of mine is reasonable.

Any insight into this would be welcome and appreciated.


thanks!

I recendly upgraded all avionics to new/ glass, specifically Skyview on a RV6A. I removed the vac system. End weight was a wash, but I added 2 axis AP and ADS-B. I did a dual redundant system i.e. 2 ADAHRS and 2 displays, 2 backup batteries. Access behind the panel was the biggest PIA, including removing and replacing the panel and sub panel. I think the -8 might be easier in this respect.

My take...

Went through this with my 6 a couple years ago. Weight depends on what you're starting with and what you add. I had a very basic steam panel with no vacuum. I put in a dual screen, back up battery system with servos. I gained weight (though to be fair, I also added leather interior at the same time).

In terms of work, like all things, double your estimated time and you'll be close. Crimping pins and fiddling takes time.

In the end, was it worth it? Yes. But when the fancy touch screens came out I didn't think more than two seconds about another upgrade before discarding the idea!

YMMV.

It's a good transition to do, but it will take time. You can get the new panel ready before you pull the other panel out, which will save down time as you suggest.

As for IFR vs VFR glass, that's not really a choice unless you go certified. The question is whether you use an IFR GPS and/or Nav/Com tied to your glass. IFR will likely require an ARINC adapter, which will add wiring, and the IFR GPS will add additional wiring. The decision to keep existing radios and intercom vs replacing will change the amount of wiring needed a great deal.

Weight will likely be a wash within a couple of pounds.

The complication depends on what wiring is already in and what system you are using. Some are easier to wire because of network bus systems among modules.

Complexity is a hard thing to answer. Your glass system will be much more complex in some ways, and much more simple in others. It's nice to eliminate vacuum and go all electric, which removes complexity, but with glass you have many more things intercommunicating, which adds complexity. You also have much more complex information with moving map, synthetic vision, altitude and density altitude, IAS/TAS/GS, digital engine info with lots of complex details, etc. the glass is much better for engine monitoring and for situational awareness. In-flight weather is great for safety in some ways, and less safe as you may push the envelope (getting closer to or trying to thread your way through storms).

You will definitely know more about your new system if you wire it yourself, which will be a big plus.

It's a big job if you haven't done it before, but not too big if you have. The biggest time savings will be determining what existing wiring you can utilize.

At my last annual, I pulled out the vacuum instruments and replaced everything with a D10A. It was more work than I expected, but it was actually very easy. My panel is far from glass now, but it is more capable and lighter. Someday, I will pull he panel for a complete overhaul, but am not willing to sacrifice the flying time now. From your post, I see you are in Massachusetts. My -4 is at Fitchburg. You are welcome anytime to see the aircraft. In November, it will be down for annual in case you want to see the "guts".

Good luck with your purchase.

I did my complete "steam to glass" conversion in 2013 and don't regret a thing. The interconnectivity design isn't that hard to do but the actual wiring is a huge PITA especially in an already existing panel when you are not a skinny young guy which I certainly am not. It took me almost 6 months to get the panel completely converted. It is a big job but most people here can pull it off without a lot of aggravations.

Weight differences will depend on what you have and what you are going to have, but for the most part will be a wash.

There isn't a whole lot of difference in wiring a VFR or IFR panel but once again it depends on the equipment you will install. Cost will be different due to extra modules and certified equipment needed for IFR that are not required for VFR operations.

Here is a link to the pictures I took during the entire process. It will give you an idea of what I went through.

N819PR new glass instrument panel

I built an RV-8, my wife has an RV-4.
The RV-4 has a tilt over canopy, and the fuselage cover over the instrument panel comes off with the removal of 20 some odd screws.
Working on this panel is a breeze, also working in the foot well etc. you just stand in front of the wing and reach in.
The RV-8 is much taller on the gear, the fuselage is deeper, and the windshield is fixed to the skin which is riveted to the fuselage. The back of the panel is accessed by diving under while your back is bent over the spar and around the control stick.
To make matters worse, you have to squeeze in between the gear towers, so the work area is narrow.
I have removed the control stick and made a back board to gain access, but still it's harder because you can't bring everything into this work area, so you are constantly climbing in and out to get tools and supplies etc.
My RV-8 panel is removable, and has an engine sub panel I can reach thru. Also I can remove the Dynon D-10a and reach a hand in there. To make this work, everything is wired with at least 8" service loop of extra wire so the panels can be removed with the instruments & avionics in them.
So for panel work, the RV-4 is a dream compared to the RV-8, although it does have less panel space.

PM sent

Dean Pichon said:

At my last annual, I pulled out the vacuum instruments and replaced everything with a D10A. It was more work than I expected, but it was actually very easy. My panel is far from glass now, but it is more capable and lighter. Someday, I will pull he panel for a complete overhaul, but am not willing to sacrifice the flying time now. From your post, I see you are in Massachusetts. My -4 is at Fitchburg. You are welcome anytime to see the aircraft. In November, it will be down for annual in case you want to see the "guts".

Good luck with your purchase.

Click to expand...

Hi Dean,

PM sent regarding making a visit to see your -4. I'd love that. Is it based at KFIT?

The D10A sounds like a major step up in capability in upgrading an old panel. Many a/c for sale don't have a DG or an AI. While I'm a VFR pilot (working on IFR) I feel a little uncomfy without an AI and I like having a DG. A D10A upgrade sounds like the simplest way to get an AI and DG.
And you get a Turn rate/ball with it as well.

From reading the Dynon description I get the impression that all you need to connect it is to route power and connect the pitot static system. Is this correct?

What about VOR?

Sticking with the VFR realm for now.....

I also want to have a VOR capability and many pre-built a/c/ do not have it. So this requires replacing the radio, mounting VOR antennae, and .......

...then you need a display. Looks like the D10A has an HSI capability. So if I select the right radio, I get that with a D10A.

But then the question comes up - for VFR flight, is a good GPS a replacement for a VOR capability?

If one is completely redoing an instrument panel, today, should one expect VOR to die off in the next few years?

GalinHdz said:

I did my complete "steam to glass" conversion in 2013 and don't regret a thing. The interconnectivity design isn't that hard to do but the actual wiring is a huge PITA especially in an already existing panel when you are not a skinny young guy which I certainly am not. It took me almost 6 months to get the panel completely converted. It is a big job but most people here can pull it off without a lot of aggravations.

Weight differences will depend on what you have and what you are going to have, but for the most part will be a wash.

There isn't a whole lot of difference in wiring a VFR or IFR panel but once again it depends on the equipment you will install. Cost will be different due to extra modules and certified equipment needed for IFR that are not required for VFR operations.

Here is a link to the pictures I took during the entire process. It will give you an idea of what I went through.

N819PR new glass instrument panel

Click to expand...

Galen,

Thanks for the pointer to the pictures...a great help in understanding.

Saville said:

From reading the Dynon description I get the impression that all you need to connect it is to route power and connect the pitot static system. Is this correct?

Click to expand...

Yes it is. That is exactly what I did as an interim step before going full glass. You can see the D6 I used in the second photo of the "old" panel before I started the conversion. I was already comfortable with the display when I first started flying with the full conversion.

IMHO a D10A/D6 is the easiest way to add some "glass" to your panel.

If you can find a used D180, you will have every instrument you need, minus nav and radio gear.

If you want to fly IFR, you will need a certified nav source, such as a G430w (or newer). Any of the EFIS panels can display the nav pointers (CDI, glide slope, etc.).

You can display the GS and CDI on the artificial horizon screen or the HSI screen so no need for a separate display. However, assuming you want to keep the price down, try to locate a used D100 EFIS and D0 EMS. This will allow you to display the artificial horizon and HSI simultaneously on the D100 and still have your engine gauges displayed on the D10 EMS. If you only put in a D180, you can still display the AH and HSI at the same time with the engine monitor running in the back ground. (I had a D100 EFIS / D10 EMS setup prior to converting to a SkyView and was very happy with it.)

For IFR back up, make life easy on yourself and buy a Dynon D1 or D2 Pocket Panel. For VFR, I wouldn't bother with anything.

As for the connections, the Dynon 10/100/180 EFIS have connections in the back for pitot, static, and the Dynon AoA. The electrical connections are fairly straight forward. The biggest challenge will be wiring the audio alarms into your intercom setup. Maybe someone here can give you some tips. (I had an iCom Radio which has three audio inputs and simply wired the Dynon's in to it and it worked great.)

You will still need to mount the remote compass someplace. Most mount it one bay aft of the baggage compartment to keep it away from any metal objects that might end up back there. Of course, you will need to run wires from that unit forward to the EFIS.

Wiring in an auto pilot to the Dynon is fairly easy. You will need power for the servos, a disconnect switch (I put mine on my stick), and wires running to both the pitch and roll servos. Nothing difficult, just more "stuff".

The SkyView is a bit more involved because its ADAHRS unit must also be mounted away from electrical and magnetic interference AND the pitot, AoA, and static lines must run to it. In my case, I had to drill up the floor to route the Pitot and AoA lines aft, which was a real pain! (I wish Dynon would offer a pressure sensor for each of the three that can ride on their bus so the pitot and AoA sensors could be mounted in the wing and the static in the tail and only wires have to be brought forward!)

If you are going to install the Dynon 10/100/180 and install their autopilot servos, run all the wires required for the SkyView. That won't add much weight and will make any future upgrades easier.

Good luck!

Saville said:

Sticking with the VFR realm for now.....

I also want to have a VOR capability and many pre-built a/c/ do not have it. So this requires replacing the radio, mounting VOR antennae, and .......

...then you need a display. Looks like the D10A has an HSI capability. So if I select the right radio, I get that with a D10A.

But then the question comes up - for VFR flight, is a good GPS a replacement for a VOR capability?

If one is completely redoing an instrument panel, today, should one expect VOR to die off in the next few years?

Click to expand...

A GPS can absolutely replace a VOR for a VFR panel. An IFR GPS can absolutely replace a VOR for an IFR panel. Just bear in mind, however, that with an IFR GPS and no VOR, you will not be able to fly an ILS approach.

Before I tackled the D120 Upgrade

To remove eight round gauges on my panel, I cut an access panel on each side of the fuse just forward of my tip up on the -6A. Best thing I ever did. I was able to remove all of the old instruments, wiring, hoses, and piping without having to get under the panel. I cut the existing panel and subpanel for the D120 and, with harnesses and instruction manual from Dynon, wired everything up and synced with my existing D10A. Took three weeks for everything. Now I am anxious to do the single Skyview with all the bells and whistles but the GPS and autopilot upgrades will come first.

Saville said:

Hi Dean,

PM sent regarding making a visit to see your -4. I'd love that. Is it based at KFIT?

The D10A sounds like a major step up in capability in upgrading an old panel. Many a/c for sale don't have a DG or an AI. While I'm a VFR pilot (working on IFR) I feel a little uncomfy without an AI and I like having a DG. A D10A upgrade sounds like the simplest way to get an AI and DG.
And you get a Turn rate/ball with it as well.

From reading the Dynon description I get the impression that all you need to connect it is to route power and connect the pitot static system. Is this correct?

Click to expand...

Hi Gregg,

I replied to your PM. The Dynon was a bit more work to incorporate than perhaps the Dynon description suggests, but it is not too terrible. I mounted the remote compass in the wing tip and had to pull wires to the cockpit. In addition, I removed my blind encoder and used the capability within the D10A to regain Mode C capability. I routed GPS output from the SL60 (GPS/COM) to drive the HSI. Finally, I had to re-plumb much of the vacuum/static system since I pulled out the old stuff.

You can see it all if you stop by.

Regards,

Check the different brands and the different models. The installation manuals are available for download. The different brands and models have various amounts of integration or modularity. Some are almost completely modular and some are mostly integrated all in one box (usually with things like transponder and magnetometer and radio as separate boxes).

Count the number of separate boxes you'll have for the system you prefer and remember that they all need wiring to connect them. And often if a harness is available, one end will still need hooking up.

Dave

Saville said:

Hi all!

I'm in the market for a pre-built RV-4 or RV-8. I have certain irreducible minimums (180hp, C/S prop, day/night VFR). I'm looking for an airplane with good structural and engine bones, but my thinking is that the instrumentation can be minimal and steam because before too long I'd want to re-do the cockpit and go glass. I'd rather save money on the instrumentation when I buy and then upgrade with the newest systems later. Also, a steam gauge system is better because I'd rather not have a middle age glass system.

But I wonder how sensible these ideas are and I have a few basic questions. So I came to the best RV web page I know::

Is there a book that discusses this transition, that is good?

None that I know of. There are however numerous magazine articles and threads on this site to help.

Do you end up saving weight over a vacuum pump driven, steam gauge system?

I can only answer for myself here, but removing about 6 steam gauges and a vacuum pump and installing one EFIS screen and a small backup EFIS saved me several pounds and a lot of wire, switches, lights, etc.

Do you end up saving complexity over a vaccuum pump driven, steam gauge system?

What I think you save is complexity of maintenance to start with. Have you tried to price getting an ADI or turn and bank indicator serviced lately. You are removing 6 different mechanical instruments, old ones at that, and putting in one or two solid state, self contained units that weigh less and are very reliable. You can make the system as complex as you like depending on what add on's you want. There's basically no difference in the avionics installations with either system.

Aside from money, is there substantial differences in the amount of work if I go IFR glass vs VFR glass?

IFR or VFR depends on what you want to support your EFIS's with. For IFR you will have to have some kind of certified NAV capability, VOR, GPS or both. You're just talking about money here. We are limited on options to be legal for IFR. King and Garmin are just about it. I'm sure there may be others, but none jump out at me. With these options comes the need for ARINC, but in most cases that's less that 500 pilot units, which in the big picture is not much compared to what it will provide for you. There's really no difference in the basic EFIS setup, just supporting units for VFR vs IFR. AS for the work, is it that much harder to wire a 650 or 430 compared to other basic com units. It's more complex for sure, but doable. I chose the Approach FastStack system, because I know for certain that if the smoke comes out of the wires, the boxes no longer function properly. I felt I didn't have the expertise, but certainly most here do.

Can you build and do substantial testing of the new panel outside of the a/c? I'd like to be able to fly it as much as possible before grounding the plane for the final installation and test.

Check out Stein's latest article in Kip Planes. He's delves into this in detail and it will answer most of your questions.

How much work is it, really?

That's a really hard question there. Last year, I, knowing just about the smoke in the wires, tackled my panel and plane. I was converting from very basic VFR to a pretty complex IFR setup. I ripped out every wire in my plane except for landing and NAV lights and started over. New EFIS system, radios, audio panel, antenna's, ignition, switch panel, etc, the whole enchilada so to speak. I had a mentor/guru guiding me, but it was a lot of me doing it myself and it took me about 4 weeks. That was everything. Wiring, cutting, painting, setup, drooling, drinking and whatnot. So yes. It's a lot of work for a full up startover. Most won't need to go that far. The upside is I know every wire and connection behind my panel now.

I once considered buying a plane with an O-320 F/P prop and then upgrade later but it turns out that you often have to do substantially more work than I imagined - such as possible substantial cowl work. That's in addition to the other things like installing a MAP gauge and running the prop control back to the cockpit etc. So I gave up on that idea.

I did this conversion too. Lot's of gratifying work, but well worth it. Would I recommend buying already with a CS. Absolutely.

I'm wondering if this instrumentation idea of mine is reasonable.

Hey, If I can do it, you can do it. Organization and assistance are the keys here. There's so much friendly accessible knowledge on this forum that you should just roll up your sleeves and jump in.

Any insight into this would be welcome and appreciated.

Now, after saying all that, should you scour the 4 corners and see if you can find something more to your liking. Maybe. On cost alone with the way the market is now on 8's and 4's you may be able find a great IFR plane for the right price. By the time you figure the cost of a new EFIS/EIS system, comm's, certified NAV units, audio panel, xpndr.. etc.. you have to get into a VFR plane pretty reasonably to make it worthwhile dollarwise.


thanks!

Click to expand...

Now, this advice is just worth what you paid for it. Would I do it again? In a heartbeat because my plane is just exactly how I want it. I fly IFR a bunch and I'm still amazed at the capability I have in my little homebuilt airplane! Also, I hear some old timers like me say they just don't want to learn the new stuff.. Milarkii..or however you spell it.. It's the best thing since sliced bread and the Thermos Jug. So much information and SA is there. You'll have to make yourself look out the windows though because it's so pretty.

Jump in and test the waters. It's mucho fun!!

Plan, plan, and plan again!

I do know a guy who bought a -4, whose name shall remain anonymous, that decided to do a panel upgrade.

He removed the top skin and then cut out every wire he could see and reach. At this point he called me asking for help. After looking over his plane I found out not a single wire was labeled, there were no before or after pictures, and no schematics.

Because of his lack of planning, what he thought was a week long project turned into a year long learning session.

Desighn your wiring schematic, cut your new panel, install as many items as you can, wire and label everything, leave all your wires extra long, replace your breakers, learn how to use the tools (strippers, double crimpers, shrink tubing, etc.). Find out what is acceptable wiring practices and follow them. Maybe visit a builder who is in the middle of wiring.

Then go to it.

2 instruments on the pito-static system question

I want to thank everyone for all their informative replies. I appreciate your sharing of hard won knowledge. I have yet a lot to learn.

'Nother question:

If you have a steam gauge airspeed indicator, and you want to add a Dynon D10A and keep the steam gauge, how do you handle the dynamic pressure pitot plumbing?

Do you need 2 pitot tubes?

Would splitting the pitot line degrade the accuracy and/ or response?

Thanks.

Saville said:

I want to thank everyone for all their informative replies. I appreciate your sharing of hard won knowledge. I have yet a lot to learn.

'Nother question:

If you have a steam gauge airspeed indicator, and you want to add a Dynon D10A and keep the steam gauge, how do you handle the dynamic pressure pitot plumbing?
With a tee

Do you need 2 pitot tubes?
No

Would splitting the pitot line degrade the accuracy and/ or response?
You would have to have a lot of tees and really small tubing to notice it

Thanks.

Click to expand...

Paige
RV-8A