Advice on flying RV-12 across Rockies

By introduction, I am Jules Delaune, a reasonably new sport pilot in Virginia. I have ordered an SLSA RV 12 that will be ready in May. I am planning to get transition training when I receive the airplane, and later (maybe June) consider flying the plane to the East Coast. Would appreciate general advice about the advisability of crossing Rockies, flying at gross weight, the best route from Eugene, and whether I need to hire an instructor to fly with me through the high terrain.
Thanks,
jmd

Welcome to VAF, Doc. You'll soon get some good advice.


Best,

Hi Jules,
Congratulations, I'm picking my SLSA up late March!
A couple of thoughts right off,

Fly under gross if you can.
Fly IFR (I follow roads).
Fly early in the day and sit tight whenever you have any weather issues. Make sure you have lots of flexible time built into your trip.

It'll be a great trip.
What's your tail number?
Lee
253VA

I'm planning the same flight, only in the opposite direction for April/May. Lots of good advice on here. I'm going to Eugene to get my -12 custom painted by John Stahr of Stahr Designs. I'm looking forward to it. There's a relatively easy path out of the mountains from Oregon, through Idaho and Wyoming, exiting at Cheyenne. I'll let others with more experience provide you with specifics. Let me know if you'd like more specific details of my planned flight path and I'll provide them for you.

Good luck with your new purchase and welcome aboard VAF.

Just a little Bio

delaunj53 said:

By introduction, I am Jules Delaune, a reasonably new sport pilot in Virginia. I have ordered an SLSA RV 12 that will be ready in May. I am planning to get transition training when I receive the airplane, and later (maybe June) consider flying the plane to the East Coast. Would appreciate general advice about the advisability of crossing Rockies, flying at gross weight, the best route from Eugene, and whether I need to hire an instructor to fly with me through the high terrain.
Thanks,
jmd

Click to expand...

JMD in order for us to give more actuate info to you we need a little Bio on your flying experience.
Have you been flying on a regular bases or has it been several years since your last flight?
When was the last time you flew a solo X-country of more than 200 miles in a single engine airplane?
Are you well briefed in today's modern avionics? Especially the Dynon Skyview?

Not to pry to much about your personal info but you get what I mean.
There are several routes to take across the USA that would take you around the higher mountains as you go east. When flying these routes Day time VFR is best and these routes follow major highways in case of trouble. Consider getting some WAC charts and review the routes you may want or ones people may suggest here. Having a good experienced flight instructor along is a great Idea if you are a little rusty on X-country flying. Furthermore with the right instructor you would receive about 18 hours of good instruction along the way. This would also be one of those once in a life time experiences, flying across the USA in the coming Spring would be a really great adventure.

Welcome to VAF!

delaunj53 said:

By introduction, I am Jules Delaune, a reasonably new sport pilot in Virginia.

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Jules, welcome to the good ship VAF

delaunj53 said:

I am planning to get transition training when I receive the airplane, ------------------------

Would appreciate general advice about the advisability of crossing Rockies, flying at gross weight, the best route from Eugene,-----------------

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My $0.02 is to ask detailed questions about this when doing the transition training, and make sure the instructor schools you on mountain flying.

Good to have you aboard

Ill go out on a limb with a quick route you might take a look out.
You can access web sectional at this link to see it.

http://vfrmap.com/?type=vfrc&lat=45.589&lon=-122.597&zoom=10

Using VORS IDs just as a quick reference to follow along.
PDX east along the Columbia River to LTJ to ALW
Now the terrain starts to climb (can deviate north a little if you want) to
MQG to (again higher terrain, along V187 you can see two spots at at 7930 Feet and 7646 Feet, not to bad ) MSO to (Use V187 as a reference and deviate slightly south over Lincoln S69 to avoid the higher terain if you want) GTF down V120 to LWT to MLS to BUA to DPR to PIR and so on and so on.
Disclaimer: this is just one of many routes you can take to avoid the higher terrain and yes you need good weather planning as you choose where you want to stop for fuel. Good luck.

As a sport pilot, be aware that you're limited in altitude restrictions to 10K MSL or 2K AGL whichever is higher when crossing the mountains.

I flew my RV-6 from north Texas to Johnson Creek, ID and back last summer, and flew the path to cross the Rockies along southern WY roughly following I-80. This was my first time ever to fly "out west" and I seriously thought that having nearly 1200 hrs PIC time under my belt and at least a couple hundred of those hours in RVs would be plenty enough experience for taking on crossing the mountains, but I was in for a rather rude awakening and an education

Crossing the mountains can get rough... like beat the holy snot out of you and your airplane and toss all your baggage wildly around inside the cabin rough... even in the morning hours! Don't do it in the afternoon either. I did and learned my lesson. Also, do not "cut the corner" around the Ft. Collins - Greeley area north of Denver to try to shave some time and distance off your trip. I learned that one the hard way too. Stay up in Wyoming along I-80 until you're east of Cheyenne before veering to a more southerly heading. All those "intensive glider ops" you see on the VFR sectional charts to the north of Ft. Collins / Greeley are there for a reason ... the waves coming of the mountains there can make you start reciting the 7 words you can't say on television.

Also, consider buying or borrowing a portable oxygen tank. Depending on where you cross the mountains, that 2K AGL altitude limit you're given might put you up to (and possibly over) 14K MSL and for longer than the 30 minutes that FAR 91.211 allows you to be above 12.5K without supplemental oxygen. Your brain will thank you for the O2.

Ditto what Neil says but I've 'cut the corner' the last two trips out to Osh with no issues other than a couple minutes of pucker time while looking for that county runway down below.
There are actually roads all along the way so it's not bad when you get away from I-80 for 20 minutes or so.

You do have to get up in the 14-15K range and a little higher is better. It's flat, or relatively so, on both sides of that one brief range all the way to/from the north of Salt Lake City with plenty of roads and I-80 most the way.

Hopefully this photo attaches. You can see the route that follows 80 out of Cheyenne and cutting the corner:



The other way I've gone several times is down south across AZ and NM. Very high plains. Seems so strange to be at 11.5K and look down to see what almost looks like pattern altitude.... Nothing really scary that way and you can see the crater! Not much to see at 'Alien City' airport but I just stopped to get a hat. Next time will cab into town to see the museums and corny gift shops. The tower asked me to buzz them so they could look at the plane! Had my one and only Top Gun moment....!
Have fun.

RV-12 crossings

I have made the trip from Arkansas to Oregon and back twice in an RV-12. It isn't a problem at all...as long as you plan it well, you have lots of options.

Taking a 12 from west to east shouldn't be too bad, as you will have the wind helping you.

You can make the trip and never get higher than 10k or 2k above terrain quite easily.

The route I always take going that direction (partially because of terrain, and partially because it's VERY close to direct) is:
KLAR - MBW - KRWL - KRKS - KBYI - KMAN - KGCD - KUAO

Not all of those require fuel stops, but they keep you over (mostly) safe terrain. There are several other airports along that route as well.

It is pretty easy to make it as far as KLAR in one day going east, as long as the weather and winds are on your side.

Please shoot me an email if there is anything else that I can help with!

Check the winds aloft

Watch out for winds aloft. Generally, if it's 20 kts at 12k, it's going to be pretty rough and you might want to try another day.

Also, look at the gradient between the winds at various altitudes. If there's a significant change, like more than say 15 kts, between any two altitudes up to 18k, there could be significant shear - more bumps, perhaps nasty ones.

Dave

I fly a fair amount in the mountains, though north of your planned path so I don't have any insight on desirable routes. Some good tips already that I'll echo and add a few more...

Winds that are not an issue over flat lands can create significant mechanical turbulence that at best are not fun in a light plane, and at worst can be dangerous. Make sure you check winds aloft.

When flying through a valley, stay to one side (generally the right side, but if winds dictate then whichever side is windward, in order to take advantage of updrafts and avoid the lee side turbulence and downdrafts). It gives you more room to do a 180 should it be required.

Cross ridges at a 45 degree angle instead of perpendicular. Easier to turn away should you need to.

Make sure you know your way so that you don't find yourself trapped in a valley with rising terrain that exceeds your climb capability. Following roads is a good idea.

Weather in general deserves more respect in the mountains. Rising terrain and lowering clouds is a bad recipe.

It's a good idea to have emergency gear suited to the terrain, should you end up on the ground. It can be cold and remote in the mountains.

If you can swing it, get some training from someone who is proficient in mountain flying. At the very least, I'd recommend reading Sparky Imeson's excellent "Mountain Flying Bible".

http://www.amazon.com/Mountain-Flyi...3617615&sr=1-1&keywords=mountain+flying+bible

While mountain flying has elements to be wary of, on a nice day it can be some of the most beautiful scenery you can imagine and is an experience not to be missed. Enjoy, and let us know how it goes!



Circling Mt. Assiniboine at 12k ft...

X2 on O2. Before you go, take a CFI I up to 10K for an hr and have him do mental test-tasks, I play here in the Sierra Nevada Mt range 7.5 to 12.5 and still get hints of hypoxia ( and I live and work at 7K) Hypoxia is nothing to play around with!

All good info here - another simple thing would to ask Mike Seeger or any of the Van's pilots when you are out there for your transition training - they fly all of the RV's to Oshkosh every year, and know the routes very well.

Thanks all. I need to digest all of the info you have shared. John, I have 175 flatland hours, no prob with x-c and have read all I can find about the sky view but it would be nice to find a simulator for it like Garmin has before I get to Oregon.
Jmd

Flying Across the Rockies

I live in western Montana and its simple. Study the charts and select a route with the widest valleys with major roads. And remember: altitude is your friend. Oxygen at even moderate altitudes is invaluable.

Best regards,
Jonathan Bodine

If there is any way you can take a transition pilot or at the very least someone who has done cross country before, you will find that you will enjoy your trip so much more and will learn valuable lessons that we here can't possibly cover . I just did a trip last month from Southern Cal to Georgia with my new RV7 and took the Arizona/NM route . . . I learned 3 very important lessons:
1. Although it's a great idea to plan your route ahead with backups and check weather, etc. just know and expect to change everything... new airports, new routes, etc to avoid weather, wind, turbulence, so many different things that will make you change your plans. You need to have the right tools to be able to make changes quickly, especially when in the air.
2. You should not have a deadline or a firm schedule. Be flexible... it may take 2 days, it may take 3, it may take 5. VFR pilots generally get in trouble when they "have to get there".
3. Without a 2nd pilot to help you when things get tough (like weather) you will be very busy and be prone to making mistakes. Make it a priority to take another good pilot or pay someone to transition you on the way. You won't regret it.

terrain

i live in michigan and went to oregon in perfect weather but if you are thiinking of the terrain you will find the appalations west of you are worse then the rockies if you choose your route with terrain as your concern the first three hours west of virginia are all trees and no were to sit down as the roads are covered by trees. then if you go to cody wyoming its all farm ground or range then if you follow the road into yellowstone and go southwest to driggs it is like the apalations hills and coverd by trees but in a short time its farm country with irigation circles then from driggs to boise its flat desert with lava flows and a highway most of the time at boise more farm country then eastern oregon is like the appalations but no trees only range land with ravines, you see mount hood in the distance but its hours away go past mount hood and you have trees but ahead is flat farm land around portland. I never went above ten thousand and had two thousand under me most of the time. i came home farther north and that was rough terrain (walla walla to bozeman). Michigan to the west side of the appalations was two hours with nothing but trees under me but i would say it was less then that for the whole trip to oregon. I wrote going west because that is how i did it but you would reverse it, east of cody is a high range but you can go south of it. you are below the ridges going from cody into yellowstone but the road is under you. i was amazed at how close the farm country is to the southwest of yellowstone and how gentile hills were out of yellowstone. from driggs to boise its flat off to the north its very moutainous but not under you. east of driggs are the tetons when i went they were hidden by smoke. this was my only issuse tfr's coused by fire, Weather can change everything but this route is great and i had no feelings of concern about terrrain. i started crossing lake michigan after the trip to west virgina because on that trip looking down i remember thinking i could better crash in the lake then all those trees.

KUAO to KBIL

In the past 35+years we have flown the route from Oregon to Billings. MT and back maybe 20 times usually in August. We flew it in C-172's a few times when it was a chore to get up to altitude as we wanted to get from Spokane over to Missoula around 12K feet. Having the Interstate right below us was good insurance, I felt. I would not call the lightly wing-loaded 172 a good ride in turb but ok and if the RV-12 is similar, keep your seatbelt tight.

When we got into RV-6a's the ride itself was nice, a few 2g bumps and the climb abilities made things easy. Knowing one has a 6g wing is very comforting, I gotta say, and even a rough ride is kinda fun...

However, You have to watch the wx in August, it can be iffy with scattered cells. Best fly early if they are around. We didn't have Nexrad so it was all mark 11 Eyeballs.

Might have been coincidence, but a few trips seemed to get stalled around Bozeman both ways...

Anyway, gorgeous vistas everywhere and totally enjoyable, When you get to Billings, most flat after that. Cheap gas at Laurel, MT.

Good luck,

Lots of good advice here.

My additions: Over the more mountainous areas, launch at civil twilight in the morning and take a long lunch break from about 1 to 5 pm. Then, if you're so inclined, fly another leg to your overnight. That keeps you our of the worst of the thermal-based and up-slope flow turbulence, and out of the worst of the +TSRA. Getting beat up by bumps for hours at a time sucks - no other word for it, and convective activity does not mix with LSA.

Fly high too. O2 is your friend, even during the day. Even a few minutes of O2 before descending from 3hr at 9500ft can really perk up your brain.

Pick some good overnight spots so you won't mind stopping. AIA and BFF are some of my favs stops on the way to/from BZN - good FBOs, friendly towns, plenty of crosswind runways (always a good thing in a LSA!).

java said:

Circling Mt. Assiniboine at 12k ft...

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I spent a week at the Lodge last summer, and it was the first thing we saw when exiting the Cabin.

TODR

Jules,

You have received lots of good advice already, and as you can see, there are many variables to consider with mountain flying. Perhaps too many to expect a relatively low time pilot to keep track of. I have a CFI friend who just finished teaching a 3 day intensive mountain flying course to 60 professional, high time pilots who were already instrument, commercial, multi-rated. Many are CFIs themselves. But, they had no mountain experience. They all work for a Midwestern photomapping company, and fly turbo'd planes.

My point is that I don't think you can read 20-30 VAF posts and expect to be able to safely handle whatever the weather may throw at you. I suggest you hire a mountain qualified instructor to fly OR to WY or CO, then send him home commercial, while you finish your trip. I can recommend Denver-based instructors who can meet you in OR and fly back with you. Probably others can recommend OR based instructors. Either way, it will be a tremendous mountain flying learning experience that you can use in the future.

My other comment has to do with O2. The older you are, the sooner you should begin using it. As a doc you may already be familiar with that. I live between 6 and 9,000'MSL (depending on the time of year)and routinely bike up to 10-12,000'. But I am an old guy, so on multi-hour xcountry flights I start sucking O2 whenever I am above 10,000'. That is not required by the regs, but I function better and arrive fresher. Stay safe.

Jim Berry
RV-10

I have flown to the east coast and beyond many times from Portland, OR [KTTD]. examining the maps you quickly realize that the interstate highways also take the easiest[lowest] routes thru the mtns.
my hangar-mate, brian, teaches transitional training and one time actually flew to PA for that new pilot's family reunion. I'm sure he could help you if you want to take that approach.
flying the rockies is a special thing I never grow tired of. watching the mtns spill out into the central plains is spectactular. how the pioneers crossed this by wagon is beyond me.
don't overplan the trip. so many variables can immediately change your plans. example - I stop for fuel in burley, ID. I decide to get lunch. I have to walk almost a mile to a restaurant because the courtesy car is gone. the place is busy and after 45 min I finally get my hamburger. takes 2 hrs for gas and lunch. barely make it to Omaha before it gets real dark. but, X/C is like that, an adventure. when else would you be happy to get a free ride to the motel in a Honda civic full of fast food trash? my point is if you think you can plan the trip like a commercial flight, then fly commercial. besides, with a more free schedule you don't make stupid weather decisions. you'll have fun.

If you are leaving Oregon fly south to Redding to Bakersfield across to Tucson then east you will not need to fly above 7500 feet and the mtns are low and good hwys. All the way across. Same route if coming from the east coast. No rugged mountains. Also when crossing the mountains stay put if the winds are blowing at 20kts or greater.

I confess to being a relatively inexperienced cross country/mountain flying pilot. After my 7a was done my first big adventure for me was to fly with my wife from the SF Bay Area to Sun Valley Idaho; my first time over the Sierras. I was a bit intimidated. Ultimately the things that made me more comfortable with the idea and the trip was asking lots of questions of lots of people, having and using oxygen, having a a 406 Personal Locator Beacon in the pocket of the fishing vest I was wearing (lots of pockets for stuff) and following the most major highways available as though I were driving it. Sure it takes longer but it was a great comfort and the scenery is just as beautiful. The other thing I did was "fly" several different routes on Google Earth to get a sneak preview.

I used the asking questions, following roads and previewing on Google Earth for our trip out to Utah and Colorado as well and it helped with the pre trip jitters.

Don't forget to have a small camera easily available and have a blast!

jjconstant said:

Don't forget to have a small camera easily available and have a blast!

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This. A camera is definitely a crucial, must-have piece of equipment while flying thru the mountains. I can't believe the rest of us forgot to mention this earlier! (although the pics that were posted were a good hint)

I agree with the O2 stmt. you'll find some days you're OK and others not. a breath of O2 is nice. I don't quite understand other posts that seem to worry so much about altitude. I'd much prefer to be flying over mtns at 10-12k' than at 7500'. Eugene to redman is several hrs of rugged terrain. even over lower mtns I'd still rather be at 10-12k'. at some point you just have to trust yourself and the plane. take some practice runs. go fly over crater lake or around Shasta. a big trip is just a bunch of small ones in a row.

This has all been very helpful. While the trip is still months off, you have helped me form a plan. I will find a mountain instructor and view the mountain crossing as a great lesson. I am pretty well versed in survival medicine and share what makes it into my kit and why. I will get a portable o2 system- any suggestions? And I will take pictures to post! Thanks a million all.

Norman CYYJ said:

If you are leaving Oregon fly south to Redding to Bakersfield across to Tucson then east you will not need to fly above 7500 feet and the mtns are low and good hwys. All the way across. Same route if coming from the east coast. No rugged mountains. Also when crossing the mountains stay put if the winds are blowing at 20kts or greater.

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This is approximately the route I took last Summer in the RV1 at 85-to 9500 max altitude. Flew from 77S Hobby field in Creswell OR down to Bakersfield following I5 through the mountains, flew right by Mt. Shasta to Orland Haige for fuel stop. Spent 3 nights and arrived afternoon of 4th day in NE GA.
see odyssey of N1583 on RV1 info. hope this helps.

write me and we can take a day trip over the cascades. jim beale has a -9 ,is out of Eugene, we could all join up for a flight. I'm based out of TTD. I use a portable mtn high O2 system. bought the tank off ebay [arrived full, despite being illegal to ship via air that way]