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Oshkosh NOTAM 2019

I took a cursory look at it...I can't find any real differences between it and last year...am I missing something? I thought the procedure would be re-engineered after last year's fiasco.
 
I took a cursory look at it...I can't find any real differences between it and last year...am I missing something? I thought the procedure would be re-engineered after last year's fiasco.

The Fond Du Lac diversion procedure is new. There appears to be a few IFR changes but my cursory read doesn't show anything earthshattering.
 
I took a cursory look at it...I can't find any real differences between it and last year...am I missing something? I thought the procedure would be re-engineered after last year's fiasco.

Changes for 2019 include:
  • New procedure for diversion to Fond du Lac
  • Restriction on transponder use removed
  • IFR routing changes
  • Manitowoc (MTW) VOR decommissioned
  • Numerous text and graphics changes

New FLD diversion looks like the most notable change. Frankly, I'm glad that there hasn't been any major retooling. It remains to be seen if the new diversion procedure works well for super high capacity days like last year. I'm slightly skeptical but it's hard not to do better than last year's "everyone break it off and go back for hours on end" approach.
 
Arrival procedure

Well, I've looked it over and the major difference I see is the FDL addition if OSH is closed for any amount of time. I thought there was going to be another initial starting point... Waupun... for the Fisk arrival. I'm happy to see it's not there. It seems that with the FDL procedure they have tried to at the least have a thought out and predetermined Plan B. My take is I'll bet they are really.... REALLY going to try and improve the use of runways to maximize landings. That is the only true way to eliminate congestion in the air.

So, I have to say my hats off to them for not trying to reinvent the wheel.
 
Well, I've looked it over and the major difference I see is the FDL addition if OSH is closed for any amount of time. I thought there was going to be another initial starting point... Waupun... for the Fisk arrival. I'm happy to see it's not there. It seems that with the FDL procedure they have tried to at the least have a thought out and predetermined Plan B. My take is I'll bet they are really.... REALLY going to try and improve the use of runways to maximize landings. That is the only true way to eliminate congestion in the air.

So, I have to say my hats off to them for not trying to reinvent the wheel.

Exactly.

I was afraid they were going to over-complicate things, when the real problems were efficient use of runways and people not following simple procedures. The runway issue is up to EAA/FAA to fix. Procedurally, if you can't get people to follow simple procedures, do you really expect the same people to do better if you make things more complicated?
 
Well, I've looked it over and the major difference I see is the FDL addition if OSH is closed for any amount of time. I thought there was going to be another initial starting point... Waupun... for the Fisk arrival. I'm happy to see it's not there. It seems that with the FDL procedure they have tried to at the least have a thought out and predetermined Plan B. My take is I'll bet they are really.... REALLY going to try and improve the use of runways to maximize landings. That is the only true way to eliminate congestion in the air.

So, I have to say my hats off to them for not trying to reinvent the wheel.

Agreed. I'm not convinced that there's anyway to alleviate a situation like last year short of some kind of forced metering of arriving traffic. So long as aircraft can come into the arrival way faster than they can get on the ground, there are going to be issues. Moving the initial point out and/or creating multiple initial points isn't going to mitigate that fundamental issue.

Moreover, as crazy as last year was, I still think that the basic procedure works well for 95% of the arrival situations. I like that the new procedure seems to be adding options to address those 5% times rather than reworking the fundamentals.

Like you, I hope that there's a behind-the-scenes focus in improving runway utilization. It seemed to me that that was a major contributor to last year's hornet's nest.
 
"Procedurally, if you can't get people to follow simple procedures, do you really expect the same people to do better if you make things more complicated?"


Well said Kyle
 
If the FAA ignores the issue they had with their controllers, which in my opinion was the single biggest problem, I don't expect to see anything different than last years cluster #@$#. It's a bloody miracle their wasn't a midair on Sunday last year.

Blaming the pilots for the conditions or not following "procedures" is baloney, the ATC situation was totally out of control.

I was in the mess when controllers were calling for 1 mile and then 2 mile spacing, and landing 1 aircraft on a runway at a time.
I can barely see an aircraft a mile in front of me, 2 miles no way. With 2 mile spacing they'd be lined up back to Oklahoma.

On Monday when I returned to try again the same nonsense was going on with ATC, nobody landing and no one being "allowed" past Ripon, I got the feeling the controllers just didn't feel like dealing with it so the easy way was just keep telling people to go away.
 
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This will be my first visit. And I will be arriving in my new to me 9. I?m going to arrive on Saturday because of the horror stories I heard from last years Sunday arrivals. I am open to any advice. Yes, I will be carefully reading the Notam.
 
I agree walt, the controllers handle it poorly and it compounded when pilots got impatient. Here's to hoping that this years controllers are trained better.

If the FAA ignores the issue they had with their controllers, which in my opinion was the single biggest problem, I don't expect to see anything different than last years cluster #@$#. It's a bloody miracle their wasn't a midair on Sunday last year.

Blaming the pilots for the conditions or not following "procedures" is baloney, the ATC situation was totally out of control.

I was in the mess when controllers were calling for 1 mile and then 2 mile spacing, and landing 1 aircraft on a runway at a time.
I can barely see an aircraft a mile in front of me, 2 miles no way. With 2 mile spacing they'd be lined up back to Oklahoma.

On Monday when I returned to try again the same nonsense was going on with ATC, nobody landing and no one being "allowed" past Ripon, I got the feeling the controllers just didn't feel like dealing with it so the easy way was just keep telling people to go away.
 
This will be my first visit. And I will be arriving in my new to me 9. I?m going to arrive on Saturday because of the horror stories I heard from last years Sunday arrivals. I am open to any advice. Yes, I will be carefully reading the Notam.

Aside from reading the NOTAM, (at least 3 times), practice your slow flight so you can actually hold 1800' at 90kts with your head on a swivel. I have seen many pilots over the years not be able to hold a speed or an altitude. One year I followed a Cessna in with a speed that went from under 70kts to well above 90kts. I have also been passed by airplanes while I was holding 90kts.
 
On Monday when I returned to try again the same nonsense was going on with ATC, nobody landing and no one being "allowed" past Ripon, I got the feeling the controllers just didn't feel like dealing with it so the easy way was just keep telling people to go away.

Bingo. The controllers went on "union break" and had no interest in getting airplanes in. 2 miles in trail for Oshkosh? There is ZERO validation for that, in any scenario.

I'm stepping out on it this year, no thanks.
 
Arrive at Ripon at 90 knots and 1,800?. For aircraft unable to operate comfortably at 90 knots:
 Slower aircraft should use maximum
cruising speed. ATC recommends arrival
at Fisk 7:00-7:30 AM CDT, if practicable.
 Faster aircraft use 135 knots and 2,300?.


Did the verbage on this change ?????
 
Hopefully they are making some procedural changes that are not reflected in the NOTAM, otherwise I think this procedure is worse. People will get diverted to FLD and will never get a chance to get back in unless there is a way to cut off arrivals from Ripon. Last year people were sent to hold never released from hold because the steady stream of new arrivals got in front of them.
 
Arrive at Ripon at 90 knots and 1,800?. For aircraft unable to operate comfortably at 90 knots:
 Slower aircraft should use maximum
cruising speed. ATC recommends arrival
at Fisk 7:00-7:30 AM CDT, if practicable.
 Faster aircraft use 135 knots and 2,300?.


Did the verbage on this change ?????

No. That's the same verbiage that's been there for years.
 
Be patient, and let?s not get into a blame game. There were lots of actors last year, from weather, mass arrival timing, controllers, pilot behavior , etc.

As I mentioned last year in a similar thread a number of us have been working hard over the last year to see what can be done to improve things and make them safer at the same time. The FAA has participated in those meetings.

While we aren?t exactly where we had hoped to be by now (the NOTAM process is complicated, without going into a lot of detail here), there most likely will be changes in the future. Just not in time for this year?s AV other than the Fond du lac bailout

There?s lots we can do outside of the procedures, such as watching the weather forecasts, not holding for hours, have a personal bailout plan, and curb the ?air rage. ?

Things are being done on the ground so everyone shouldn?t have to feel they need to get there or they won?t have a parking spot. Controllers are being trained in aircraft recognition, amongst other things. The timing of Mass arrivals and military arrivals are being looked at as well.

You should start to see a number of articles in various places from Jack Pelton, Charlie Precourt (head of EAA safety council), and others.

I just ask that we as RV pilots take the high road and remember that AV is for fun. There are so many of us anymore that the actions of just a few tend to taint us as a group. We?ve already contributed so much to the advance of amateur-built aviation that we owe it to ourselves to continue to be leaders and not tolerate adverse behavior from within our group.

Please, let?s try and focus on what WE can do and trust that others are still working behind the scenes to address what we can?t.

Thanks.

Vic
 
Be patient, and let’s not get into a blame game. There were lots of actors last year, from weather, mass arrival timing, controllers, pilot behavior , etc.

As I mentioned last year in a similar thread a number of us have been working hard over the last year to see what can be done to improve things and make them safer at the same time. The FAA has participated in those meetings.

Please, let’s try and focus on what WE can do and trust that others are still working behind the scenes to address what we can’t.

Thanks.

Vic
Hate to be critical here but this reminds me of when I was a "company man", whenever anyone complained or voiced a concern in a meeting it was always "we're looking into that", but of course nothing ever changed.

So please tell us Vic, since the FAA has been in your meetings, have they taken any responsibility for the actions of ATC controllers and have they made any commitment to change?

About the only thing I can think I can do personally to prevent a reoccurrence, is not show up.
 
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This will be my first visit. And I will be arriving in my new to me 9. I’m going to arrive on Saturday because of the horror stories I heard from last years Sunday arrivals. I am open to any advice. Yes, I will be carefully reading the Notam.

#1: Study the NOTAM until you can explain the arrival procedure to a lay person. The procedure's actually pretty straightforward once you wrap your head around it. Study departure procedures too; they're not as involved as the arrival but there's still some nonstandard stuff in there.

#2: Keep an eye out for the EAA's annual "tips for flying into OSH" webinar. It walks through the procedure and points out a lot of useful landmarks, with photos from the air (ie how they'll look to you). Supplement this with some study of Google Earth or something similar if you want to get even more familiar with the area.

#3: Commit to fine-tuning your airmanship in the weeks prior to the trip. Go out and practice 1800' and 90 knots, and while you're at it note your power settings so you can easily hit those numbers over Ripon without needing a ton of adjustments. Practice some slower flight, because there's a good chance you'll find yourself behind slower traffic on the arrival. If you really want to get serious, practice holding that 1800' while playing around with your speed.

I always spend a lot of time doing patterns before the trip. At a basic level, it's getting comfortable with short, tight approaches that end with an accurate spot landing. I'll do this with spot landings both on the numbers and, say, the thousand-foot markers. When I'm comfortable with those, I'll practice aiming for the numbers and then changing my aiming point on short final (this works a lot better if you have a passenger who can change the spot, or not, without you knowing what to expect).

If you find right-hand traffic weird or disconcerting (I don't, personally), throw in some right traffic, cause you're likely to have that, too.

Here's a video of me doing my practice thing in an Arrow a few years back: https://vimeo.com/133233848

And here's a video of me flying the Ripon approach last year in a Grumman, which calls out some of the landmarks along the way: https://vimeo.com/285841661

The overall goal of all my preparation is pretty straightforward: I want to be able to fly the entire approach almost without conscious thought, keeping all my brain cycles available for whatever unexpected stuff happens.
 
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Hate to be critical here but this reminds me of when I was a "company man", whenever anyone complained or voiced a concern in a meeting it was always "we're looking into that", but of course nothing ever changed.

So please tell us Vic, since the FAA has been in your meetings, have they taken any responsibility for the actions of ATC controllers and have they made any commitment to change?

About the only thing I can think I can do personally to prevent a reoccurrence, is not show up.

Personally, Walt, I think you are better than this. I thought I was clear that they have been involved. There is controller training going on and they are looking at ways to get experienced controllers back.

Jack and Charlie are in meetings this week with the highest levels of the FAA.

I am far from being a company man. Actually I?ve never even been accused of that. 😄

I am asking you to trust that we are all still working on it and we really wish we were further along and had more to report. It continues to be a lot of hard work for those who are involved.

I think the attitude of not going is a mistake. People like you have a lot to share with others and they look for leadership. Remember when we were there once, trying to learn from others?

Its now our turn to be leaders, and leading is hard at times.

Vic
 
Well said, Vic. However, I hope there is a plan in place this year to have a visit from a FAA representative for those who don't follow the procedures.
 
Personally, Walt, I think you are better than this. I thought I was clear that they have been involved. There is controller training going on and they are looking at ways to get experienced controllers back.

Jack and Charlie are in meetings this week with the highest levels of the FAA.

I am far from being a company man. Actually I’ve never even been accused of that. ��

I am asking you to trust that we are all still working on it and we really wish we were further along and had more to report. It continues to be a lot of hard work for those who are involved.

I think the attitude of not going is a mistake. People like you have a lot to share with others and they look for leadership. Remember when we were there once, trying to learn from others?

Its now our turn to be leaders, and leading is hard at times.

Vic

Vic,
Perhaps if you were flying in on Sun and Mon last year with your wife in the seat next to you and your friends in tow with their wives, who are counting on you to lead them in safely, you would have a different perspective. Sitting on the ground and preaching to the folks that were out there holding for hours that we should do better as pilots just isn't working for me. Actually I think every pilot out there on Sunday did a fantastic job as no one got killed!

Don't get me wrong, we all appreciate that you are involved and working to make things better, but I really don't want to hear "were working on it",
I want to hear a commitment from the FAA that they have made a real effort to fix this, trust but verify I believe is the term..

My issue is strictly with ATC's handling of the event the last 2 years, and they have remained quite on the issue as far as I know.

I've been flying in for the past 15 years and this year will be no different, however, I'm also not interested in a repeat of last year so I'm anxiously waiting to hear something from the FAA on what they are going to do to correct this.

Without something from the FAA, I will likely delay my arrival until tue or weds to avoid the unsafe situation that we have had the last 2 years, with last year being the absolute worst by far.

Some folks want the pilots held accountable for not following the notam, I want the FAA to be held accountable for controllers not doing their job as well.

PS: Prior to the last 2 years the controllers have done an utterly fantastic job, so I'm not sure what changed and why we seem to have lost the experienced controllers we once had. To me the fix seems pretty simple, get the experienced guys back no matter what you have to do or how much you have to pay them, work with the union, pay them a premium, whatever, just make it happen! I don't think the FAA needs another black eye at this point.
 
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Arrive early...I mean REAL EARLY!

This will be my first visit. And I will be arriving in my new to me 9. I’m going to arrive on Saturday because of the horror stories I heard from last years Sunday arrivals. I am open to any advice. Yes, I will be carefully reading the Notam.

Here’s my advice. With the procedure going into effect at 6:00AM CDT on Friday July 19, plan your overnight stop so you can arrive at RIPON between 6:00 AM and 7:00 AM on Friday. Why wait til Saturday? I can guarantee you will see less traffic, feel less stress, and will make that first landing at Oshkosh as easy as 1-2-3 if you arrive early. Of course you could arrive really early and arrive on Thursday before the NOTAM takes effect.

I’ve done the above method three times, and no kidding, the last time I flew it, I was the only airplane on frequency all the way from RIPON until landing at OSH. That may take awhile to be appreciated, but that means there were no other aircraft in the air within 15 miles of me.

If the weather doesn’t cooperate, don’t fight the masses. Wait and arrive early the next day, especially for that first OSH arrival.
 
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It sounds like they are thinking that since there were no accidents/mid-airs last year, that things weren?t as bad as everybody is complaining about, and let?s try the same old status quo again and see how it works out this year. Last year was a perfect storm of two days of bad weather that created pent up demand on the arrival on Sunday. That?s the kind of situation we need to protect against. Allowing mass arrivals during this pent-up situation by ATC was a mistake, and apparently they are willing to try it again. Many of us offered recommendations for improvement, but they have obviously not listened to it. If the weather is good for the first few days this year, it will probably work out OK, but Air Traffic Control was clearly the primary cause of the fiasco last year. I?ve been flying in to Oshkosh since the ?70s, and I?ve never seen a worse case of traffic management than what I witnessed in 2018. I flew in on Sunday last year, and I won?t be doing that again.
 
I was in the mess when controllers were calling for 1 mile and then 2 mile spacing, and landing 1 aircraft on a runway at a time.
I can barely see an aircraft a mile in front of me, 2 miles no way. With 2 mile spacing they'd be lined up back to Oklahoma.

So with 1/2 mile spacing, a plane arrives every 20 seconds, with two mile spacing, it is one plane every minute and 20 seconds. That translates to 180 planes per hour for 1/2 mile spacing and only 45 for 2 mile spacing.

The new NOTAM still has 1/2 mile spacing, I wonder if in all he meetings that took place anyone addressed why they went to 2 mile spacing.
 
Hopefully they are making some procedural changes that are not reflected in the NOTAM, otherwise I think this procedure is worse. People will get diverted to FLD and will never get a chance to get back in unless there is a way to cut off arrivals from Ripon. Last year people were sent to hold never released from hold because the steady stream of new arrivals got in front of them.

+1

If they have the same caliber of controllers as last year, I would expect at least a thousand airplanes at FLD. This makes it WAY too easy for them to press the "go away" button.

If there is no way to stop inbound traffic at Ripon, when do they bring in the people parked at FLD? I would expect a decent number of pilots will figure that out and break off from the FLD route and go stright back to RIPON.

Larry
 
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I want to challenge everyone here to take a hard honest look at YOUR personal minimums for the flight into Oshkosh this year. Set them and don?t violate them. I honestly believe this the single most important thing we can do to guarantee our family, friends, and the aviation fraternity that no one will get hurt this year. If you have it already in your head that you will arrive at a specific time and place, then please, please, please re-evaluate you?re critical thinking skills. There are a lot of ways to get to Airventure, and the trip isn?t mandatory for anyone.
 
For my part, I'm skeptical that 10 months isn't enough time to write a NOTAM. As a former "company man", I've seen this kind of behavior before as well. To accept change might mean accepting some responsibility for what happened last year, and the FAA simply won't do that. I'm sure there was a theme in those meetings of "those dumb pilots just won't cooperate and there's nothing wrong with the procedure, after all, we've done it that way for years...why change?" This is what happens in a committee environment, and anyone who's worked in a corporate environment (which is what this is) has seen this.

Having said that, I will fess up and say that I engaged in flying behavior last year that I would never have engaged in otherwise. The weather sucked and I was scud running to stay "VFR". It was like formation flying with 100 people you don't know. Simply put, it was dangerous and I should not have done that. And I will not do that this year. If there's not an unambiguous good weather forecast for the arrival, I'm staying home, just like I would if I was planning to go get a $100 hamburger and the weather wasn't decent.

Oshkosh is a unique situation. We all want to "get there", see old friends, have a beer or six, get a good camping spot, and I think that just clouds judgment at times and now I'm wary of that.
 
I want to challenge everyone here to take a hard honest look at YOUR personal minimums for the flight into Oshkosh this year. Set them and don?t violate them. I honestly believe this the single most important thing we can do to guarantee our family, friends, and the aviation fraternity that no one will get hurt this year. If you have it already in your head that you will arrive at a specific time and place, then please, please, please re-evaluate you?re critical thinking skills. There are a lot of ways to get to Airventure, and the trip isn?t mandatory for anyone.

This is sort of my thought when I hear about people who held for literal hours last year. Based on what I saw up there, I'm not convinced that holding for hours represents good aeronautical decision making.

Before we left RYV for our first attempt on Sunday, we established limits on how long we'd deal with holding. We knew it would be busy but not how bad it would be. I think we took off with 34 gallons and I decided that if we got down to 10 and we weren't literally about to put wheels down at OSH, we were going to break out.

In practice, it never came to that. After maybe an hour in the furball, I was convinced that things weren't going to get better, and so we headed back to RYV to rest and regroup. We decided to make a second try later in the evening, but we also went ahead and reserved a hotel room in Watertown. I was pretty sure we'd end up using it, and I didn't want the "well where are we going to sleep" pressure when we made the second try. And with that bit of comfort, it was a lot easier to make the decision to break things off even sooner the second time around.

In retrospect, what chapped my hide the most about last year was that it seemed like the "legitimate" strategy for getting into the airport was to fly up the railroad tracks, disregarding any issues with aircraft danger close ahead/beside/over/under, and then just hope that you won the lottery at Fisk. I was not willing to play that game.

Maybe if I had been we would have gotten in sooner; I'll never know. But I find it very bothersome that that sort of risk-pressing was apparently rewarded.

I'm not super keen on the idea of having some enforcement plan - the whole Big Brother is watching thing doesn't sit well with me - but I'm not sure we can remedy the whole issue of rewarding risk-taking/breaking the rules without having some kind of accountability in place.
 
The weekend arrival is very, very busy, even at the best of times. Knowing the weather was going to be "iffy", I booked an extra day of vacation in order to arrive on the Friday. Traffic was low, the arrival was a joy to fly, and I managed to plant the mains on the white dot for my very first arrival at OSH by aircraft.

Rather than having such an intense focus on how to pound a lot of aircraft into OSH in short order, why not de-stress your travel plans by planning to arrive before the big fur ball builds up?
 
The weekend arrival is very, very busy, even at the best of times. Knowing the weather was going to be "iffy", I booked an extra day of vacation in order to arrive on the Friday. Traffic was low, the arrival was a joy to fly, and I managed to plant the mains on the white dot for my very first arrival at OSH by aircraft.

Rather than having such an intense focus on how to pound a lot of aircraft into OSH in short order, why not de-stress your travel plans by planning to arrive before the big fur ball builds up?

People used to fly in on Sunday. Many of us moved our arrival to Saturday to beat the rush. Now Saturday is a zoo. So, if we move our arrivals to Friday...
 
Thanks, Mark, for being up front and acknowledging that some of the problems last year were due in part to our own behaviors. The blame game does no one any good. I've said this enough times that I am getting tired of saying it, but some don't seem to want to hear it: there was LOTS of blame to go around, and EVERYONE has taken ownership to work on their specific area. It takes time to get it all fixed.

Those of you who want to blame the controllers, there are controllers on this forum. They have seen the comments and are working it. Zeesh, do you not think they have any pride as well?

Those of us who were on the ground Sunday were there because we saw the forecast and decided to arrive early. Everyone has access to the same forecasts. It was still no less painful to watch everything that was going on. The ADSB picture gave everyone the willies, I assure you.

Some other improvements I forgot to mention. There will be a text message system to provide information to pilots on the way to Oshkosh to keep us informed of any status changes, and a ground stop/delay system out to 150 miles used by air traffic control officials. The FAA is also establishing a Safety Risk Management Panel to further review and enact changes for future years. EAA will be part of that panel to ensure suggestions are reviewed while preventing any unintended consequences by changes in current procedures.

This is my last post on trying to help everyone understand that EVERYTHING is being worked. From now on I want to focus on what we can do to make AV fun and save with regards to those things that ARE in our control. I assure you there is enough for us there, and if you think no one will be watching our behaviors this year, then you are mistaken. Do NOT take that as a threat in any way, except that there was pleanty of bad pilot behavior as well last year, and most of it was associated with RV pilots. It pains me to be in these discussions on the Councils and hear some of the radio talk and behavior. Please, help me get that topic off of the table.

BTW, there are things being done to accomodate early arrivals, and there's more parking available in the South 40 as well. And before you start on the South 40 being too isolated, know that a whole lot of time and money is being spent on the South 40 so that it will be just as much a great experience as the rest of OSH, with a huge focus on transportation, showers, food, etc.

It's the 50th anniversary of AV at OSH. So let's make it a really great one, as it will be talked about for many years to come. :)

Thanks!

Vic
 
Mass Arrivals updates

Where can you find times when the Mass arrivals on Sat and Sun before the airshow will be scheduled? Will that info be included in the text messages? What will happen if mass arrivals are delayed for weather? Will they be rescheduled or cancelled?
 
Where can you find times when the Mass arrivals on Sat and Sun before the airshow will be scheduled? Will that info be included in the text messages? What will happen if mass arrivals are delayed for weather? Will they be rescheduled or cancelled?

Page 6 of the NOTAM:

"These formation arrivals are scheduled for late morning through mid-afternoon on Saturday, July 20, and for early morning on Sunday, July 21.Weather and other factors may change the schedule. Traffic using the Fisk VFR arrival to Oshkosh can expect delays during these large formation arrivals."

My interpretation of this is "get there before noon on Saturday"
 
Page 6 of the NOTAM:

"These formation arrivals are scheduled for late morning through mid-afternoon on Saturday, July 20, and for early morning on Sunday, July 21.Weather and other factors may change the schedule. Traffic using the Fisk VFR arrival to Oshkosh can expect delays during these large formation arrivals."

My interpretation of this is "get there before noon on Saturday"

Meh, that?s the same as it has always been. I do typically shoot to arrive before them, but what I?ve seen they usually do a good job of getting them on the ground relatively quickly.
 
Where can you find times when the Mass arrivals on Sat and Sun before the airshow will be scheduled? Will that info be included in the text messages? What will happen if mass arrivals are delayed for weather? Will they be rescheduled or cancelled?

The arrivals will be published. The plan right now is that if they miss their slot they will have to go use the normal approach. The exception will most likely be the Bonanzas, as they land faster than all of us since they land 2 abreast. (No, I don't want to hear why we can't do that). :)

The texting service should help all of us while many miles away to understand if there are problems.

Vic
 
The arrivals will be published. The plan right now is that if they miss their slot they will have to go use the normal approach. The exception will most likely be the Bonanzas, as they land faster than all of us since they land 2 abreast. (No, I don't want to hear why we can't do that). :)

The texting service should help all of us while many miles away to understand if there are problems.

Vic

Thanks Vic!
 
a ground stop/delay system out to 150 miles used by air traffic control officials.

BTW, there are things being done to accomodate early arrivals

Thanks!

Vic

Vic - in case I haven't said it before - thank you for your efforts to represent the community well and drive improvements.

With respect to the "ground stop"... would you be able to provide some additional details, please? Just wondering how that might work for / effect Canadians pouring in over the border from the north? :)

Also - the comment regarding better accommodation of Friday arrivals is music to my ears. While our arrival by air on Friday was wonderful, once the airplane was tied down in HBP the nightmare of not having ground transportation began. Please, if you have a moment, would you share what some of those improvements are for the Friday arrivals?

Thanks!
 
There are still lots of details being worked out, including ground transportation such as welcome wagon, food, and camping. I was just there last week and as you can guess OSH is just now coming out of winter, allowing the grounds to be worked. The Homebuilt council spent a lot of time walking the grounds and getting updates on all of the projects. Hopefully the weather will cooperate and things will get finished. It’s mind boggling seeing what is underway, but after being involved for so many years it is clear that this time of the year is “miracle” season for the crews at OSH.

Which BTW, is accomplished by A LOT of volunteers who show up every weekend. It’s one of the reasons I get so defensive about comments regarding the ground operations. OSH happens because there are over 5000 volunteers who make it happen. They are no different than you or I in that they want to do a good job and make it fun for everyone. Sometimes even the best efforts don’t yield the results we might want. We are trying to figure out how to make use of technology to understand real time availability of parking to help them out, but as with everything, it takes time.



Make sure you sign up for the text messaging once it is announced, but also don’t forget to fly the airplane and keep your eyes out the window please. I think the majority of us usually have a cockpit companion to which we can assign some duties.


Watch for some messages on e-grams and Sport Aviation as we get close to AV.

Thanks a bunch for those of you who are understanding the challenges. For those of you who are still doubters—- I get it. Just come later in the week if you are more comfortable. Let’s not make it a race to get there. :)

Vic
 
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Please cut Vic, EAA and FAA some slack on this ...

Although I haven't been posting much recently, I felt the need to chime in and say that Vic is NOT trying to be a "Company Man" on this.

I will leave the details to come from Vic, but I must say that there **IS** a lot being worked on and this was in fact discussed in great detail at the last Board Meeting.

There are parts of the solution that the FAA controls and there are parts that EAA controls. Both parties are aware of the problem(s) and working towards solutions at the pace at which they feel they can accomplish. Would we like for more to be done faster? Of course! But sometimes caution and taking the time to make sure that you don't make things worse is the best approach.

We (EAA) work *with* the FAA on matters like this. In some cases we press for more and in some cases we take the time to see it their way and we make better progress later.

We (EAA) also look into and work towards addressing those parts of the solution that is in our domain (e.g. Mass Arrivals and parking space). In those areas, you will see a progression of changes over time.

There are still lots of details being worked out, including ground transportation such as welcome wagon, food, and camping. I was just there last week and as you can guess OSH is just now coming out of winter, allowing the grounds to be worked. The Homebuilt council spent a lot of time walking the grounds and getting updates on all of the projects. Hopefully the weather will cooperate and things will get finished. It?s mind boggling seeing what is underway, but after being involved for so many years it is clear that this time of the year is ?miracle? season for the crews at OSH.

Which BTW, is accomplished by A LOT of volunteers who show up every weekend. It?s one of the reasons I get so defensive about comments regarding the ground operations. OSH happens because there are over 5000 volunteers who make it happen. They are no different than you or I in that they want to do a good job and make it fun for everyone. Sometimes even the best efforts don?t yield the results we might want. We are trying to figure out how to make use of technology to understand real time availability of parking to help them out, but as with everything, it takes time.



Make sure you sign up for the text messaging once it is announced, but also don?t forget to fly the airplane and keep your eyes out the window please. I think the majority of us usually have a cockpit companion to which we can assign some duties.


Watch for some messages on e-grams and Sport Aviation as we get close to AV.

Thanks a bunch for those of you who are understanding the challenges. For those of you who are still doubters?- I get it. Just come later in the week if you are more comfortable. Let?s not make it a race to get there. :)

Vic
 
Vic,
Could you elaborate on one point for me: in developing the modified procedure did anyone (or hopefully the whole committee) go through the tapes from last year? I ask this because many people think they know what the problems were, but hopefully there was an actual root cause analysis so that the actual root cause is being addressed?
If so, what was the root cause?
 
Oh yes, I assure you we listened to tapes. To be honest, the pilot behavior was embarrassing to hear.

I guess I’m not being real clear here, or at least I thought I said it: there was no single root cause. It was more or less a perfect storm and ALL of the owners of the various pillars are aggressively working their particular areas.

Those areas include, but are not limited, to the following:

Arrival procedures
Ground operations
Communications to airborne pilots
Updating ATIS at airports within 150 miles of OSH with any updates
Early arrival accommodations
Ground transportation
Technology to help us understand the location and availability of parking spots
Taking a look at increasing the weather minimums (this gets complicated)
Pilot behavior (WE OWN this one)
Mass arrivals
Military arrivals
Controller education and experience


I’m probably missing a few. But the point is that this is not a simple problem. Any one of the legs of the stool can break and it all starts to cascade. While it's served us well for many years last year was a confluence of various things that helped all of us understand just how complicated it is and how tightly wound it can get. Luckily we had no bent metal and our goal is to keep it that way.

Thanks.

Vic
 
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The arrivals will be published. The plan right now is that if they miss their slot they will have to go use the normal approach. The exception will most likely be the Bonanzas, as they land faster than all of us since they land 2 abreast. (No, I don't want to hear why we can't do that). :)

The texting service should help all of us while many miles away to understand if there are problems.

Vic

2 abreast !! OMG LOL
Falcon Flight (RV's) in 2016 landed in 4-ship echelons!
Ok, not exactly abreast but pretty much the same thing.

Mark
 
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