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  #11  
Old 03-06-2017, 12:17 AM
dutchroll dutchroll is offline
 
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Minor technical point but I don't think there is any such thing anywhere as a "non-certified" transponder unit, is there? I'm pretty sure aircraft transponders are TSO'd by default, even though their connected equipment may not be (antenna, encoder, GPS, etc).

Also be aware that in some parts of the world, like where I live, the phrase "meets the standards of TSO XXX" is meaningless marketing PR and it's either TSO'd (has the paperwork) or it's not.
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  #12  
Old 03-06-2017, 12:36 AM
BobTurner BobTurner is offline
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dutchroll View Post
Minor technical point but I don't think there is any such thing anywhere as a "non-certified" transponder unit, is there? I'm pretty sure aircraft transponders are TSO'd by default, even though their connected equipment may not be (antenna, encoder, GPS, etc).

Also be aware that in some parts of the world, like where I live, the phrase "meets the standards of TSO XXX" is meaningless marketing PR and it's either TSO'd (has the paperwork) or it's not.
Yep. This is relatively new ground for the FAA, and there seems to be a fair amount of confusion. So far as I know only a few ADSB-out units are being sold as "meets the standards".
And the FAA is allowing non-TSO Garmin G5's and Dynon D-10's on normally certified aircraft whose paperwork nominally calls for TSO'd attitude indicators.
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  #13  
Old 03-06-2017, 07:38 AM
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g3xpert g3xpert is offline
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jim Slesser View Post
Hope we can get the Garmin guys to reply because I want to add another question.
1. Other than WASS and radio what do GTN 650 & 750's provide that the G3x touch can not?
Hello Jim,

We receive this question often, so it probably warrants some explanation. Every G3X and G3X Touch display contains an excellent non-certified WAAS GPS receiver, but that is only the first small step in achieving performance and functional parity with a certified IFR navigator like the GTN 6XX/7XX.

There is a fairly common misconception that if you have a WAAS GPS receiver, then you must have everything needed to fly IFR WAAS GPS approaches.

The two TSOs listed below specify the required performance and functions of a certified WAAS GPS navigation sensor (TSO-C145) and a complete stand-alone IFR navigator capable of being used for all phases of IFR operation including enroute, terminal, and approach (TSO-C146).
TSO-C145, AIRBORNE NAVIGATION SENSORS USING THE GLOBAL POSITIONING SYSTEM (GPS) AUGMENTED BY THE WIDE AREA AUGMENTATION SYSTEM (WAAS)

TSO C146, STAND-ALONE AIRBORNE NAVIGATION EQUIPMENT USING THE GLOBAL POSITIONING SYSTEM (GPS) AUGMENTED BY THE WIDE AREA AUGMENTATION SYSTEM (WAAS)
While the Airman's Information Manual may not be regulation, it is the FAA's guidance on using GPS for IFR operations.
2. IFR Use of GPS
(a) General Requirements. Authorization to conduct any GPS operation under IFR requires:
1) GPS navigation equipment used for IFR operations must be approved in accordance with the requirements specified in Technical Standard Order
(TSO) TSO−C129(), TSO−C196(), TSO−C145(), or TSO−C146().
It further specifies what is required to use GPS as the sole source of navigation (even enroute) if you are not using a WAAS corrected TSO-C146a navigator like the GTN.
2) Aircraft using un-augmented GPS (TSO-C129() or TSO-C196()) for navigation under IFR must be equipped with an alternate approved and operational means of navigation suitable for navigating the proposed route of flight.
Many reading this will quickly say "yes, but we fly EAB aircraft, so we don't need TSO'd equipment. We only have to meet the performance requirements of the TSO'd equipment."

While this may be true, meeting the performance requirements for IFR operations to safely fly down to minimums (sometimes 200 ft) in the clouds on an LPV approach is a tall order.

DO-229 specifies the Minimum Operational Performance Standards (MOPS) for TSO-C146 navigators like the GTN 6XX/7XX. It is over 500 pages and contains very strict requirements on just about everything imaginable associated with IFR navigation using a WAAS GPS navigation source.

The performance requirements for integrity monitoring and alerting to make sure a pilot does not continue toward the earth on a precision approach when the integrity of the 3D navigation solution is not assured are particularly stringent.

We take IFR operation very seriously, and feel that the G3X integration with Garmin IFR naviagtors provides the best of both worlds. The affordability of a non-certified EFIS system with the design assurance, performance, and safety of a rule compliant certified IFR navigator.

Thanks,
Steve
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  #14  
Old 03-06-2017, 08:02 AM
dweyant dweyant is offline
 
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My RV-9A is all Garmin.

I have a twin screen G3X Touch setup, and I'm using a GTN650 as my COM 1 and IFR GPS.

These units work together really well, and just about seamlessly.

I enter my flight plans directly into the 650 (even for VFR) and it gets pushed to both G3X touch screens.

I fly a decent bit of IMC with this setup, and it is incredible how easy it makes doing things.

If you plan to fly your RV IFR I don't think there is a better/safer setup.

-Dan
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  #15  
Old 03-06-2017, 08:21 AM
mturnerb mturnerb is offline
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dweyant View Post
My RV-9A is all Garmin.

I have a twin screen G3X Touch setup, and I'm using a GTN650 as my COM 1 and IFR GPS.

These units work together really well, and just about seamlessly.

I enter my flight plans directly into the 650 (even for VFR) and it gets pushed to both G3X touch screens.

I fly a decent bit of IMC with this setup, and it is incredible how easy it makes doing things.

If you plan to fly your RV IFR I don't think there is a better/safer setup.

-Dan
This is what I would use if my RV-14A was ready to fly today: assuming this will be true in 18-24 months when I finish it, can you use an ipad to create your flight plan and upload it to the GTN650? Seems like that would be easier.
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  #16  
Old 03-06-2017, 08:36 AM
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Auburntsts Auburntsts is offline
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mturnerb View Post
This is what I would use if my RV-14A was ready to fly today: assuming this will be true in 18-24 months when I finish it, can you use an ipad to create your flight plan and upload it to the GTN650? Seems like that would be easier.

You can. You need a FlightStream 210 or 510 to do it via BlueTooth or some way to export it onto an SD card. I file IFR all the time and for me it's easier and way cheaper just to load my GTN 650 manually after I have my clearance. YMMV....
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Last edited by Auburntsts : 03-06-2017 at 08:39 AM.
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  #17  
Old 03-06-2017, 09:20 AM
dweyant dweyant is offline
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Auburntsts View Post
You can. You need a FlightStream 210 or 510 to do it via BlueTooth or some way to export it onto an SD card. I file IFR all the time and for me it's easier and way cheaper just to load my GTN 650 manually after I have my clearance. YMMV....
No you don't.

I don't have a flight stream, I just use Garmin Pilot on my iPad connected to the G3X Touch via Bluetooth, and it will send my flight plans to the 650.

Most of my clearances are direct, so I usually don't mess with it, but when I have a complex clearance it is really nice!

-Dan
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  #18  
Old 03-06-2017, 09:23 AM
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Auburntsts Auburntsts is offline
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dweyant View Post
No you don't.

I don't have a flight stream, I just use Garmin Pilot on my iPad connected to the G3X Touch via Bluetooth, and it will send my flight plans to the 650.

Most of my clearances are direct, so I usually don't mess with it, but when I have a complex clearance it is really nice!

-Dan
Thanks for the correction - I have the standard G3X not the Touch so I'm behind the curve . But unless you fly in the NE corridor where you can get some convoluted airway routings, I still think for IFR there's not much utility in the function. For VFR with lots of waypoints it makes more sense, but I don't fly VFR flight plans beyond my local area so no advantage for me.
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Last edited by Auburntsts : 03-06-2017 at 09:30 AM.
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  #19  
Old 03-06-2017, 09:29 AM
mturnerb mturnerb is offline
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dweyant View Post
No you don't.

I don't have a flight stream, I just use Garmin Pilot on my iPad connected to the G3X Touch via Bluetooth, and it will send my flight plans to the 650.

Most of my clearances are direct, so I usually don't mess with it, but when I have a complex clearance it is really nice!

-Dan
Perfect - thanks
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  #20  
Old 03-06-2017, 12:51 PM
togaflyer togaflyer is offline
 
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Yep, glad Bob pointed that out. The TSO requirement is for just the navigation unit only, i.e. GTN 650, etc.
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