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Airworthiness Inspection?

Jerry Cochran

Jerry Cochran

Well Known Member
Folks,

I have witnessed 4 airworthiness inspections including one on my build, and found wildly disparate methods. One from an FAA inspector which was exhaustingly complete with every nook and cranny exposed to another where the DAR fiddled over photos then spent a couple hours doing the paperwork.

Can someone point us to the official FAA rules on same? Mel, wanna weigh in?

Names and places omitted to protect the innocent...

Is the original AI supposed to be like a condition inspection or is it assumed the recipient knows what he was doing? Confusing to me...

Jerry
 
we're not happy till

Jerry Cochran said:
Folks,

I have witnessed 4 airworthiness inspections including one on my build, and found wildly disparate methods. One from an FAA inspector which was exhaustingly complete with every nook and cranny exposed to another where the DAR fiddled over photos then spent a couple hours doing the paperwork.

Can someone point us to the official FAA rules on same? Mel, wanna weigh in?

Names and places omitted to protect the innocent...

Is the original AI supposed to be like a condition inspection or is it assumed the recipient knows what he was doing? Confusing to me...

Jerry
Click to expand...

here at the faa WE'RE NOT HAPPY UNTIL YOU ARE NOT HAPPY this is what my teacher said at a and p school. in my experience in dealing with the govt, i find very little consistency, and further more if the govt employee is having a bad day, good luck to you. that said, i called the local faa dar in my area and have begun semi meaningless conversations so as to make them aware of me and my build so when its time for my inspection the individual will be aware of my situation. and remember the faa is the lowest standard to which we should hold ourselves.so whatever govt employee you get , and their methods, know that you did your very best which is above the faa. good luck
 
my experience only

I've built and have helped build quite a few Seareys, and an Explorer.

The last one I had built myself and had inspected, the DAR walked around the plane 1 time, moved the stick to the side and then went and sat at a table to fill out paperwork and sign off.

I nerved up and asked him why he didn't really look over anything as far as the aircraft itself was concerned. I'll try to quote as close as I can remember...
"i'm not flying in it, I assume you will be. It's not my job to know how everything is constructed or how it will perform. It's my job to make sure your paperwork is perfect as far as the FAA is concerned. Congrats on your new aircraft, here are your parameters for phase 1 of how far outside of this airport you can fly, Have a nice day."

If it were always that easy...

Just my experience, not agreeing or disagreeing.
 
When it comes time for my inspection, my thought was to fly someone in to do the inspection and first flight. I know I do not have the experience to make the flight myself and not being the first doesn't mean anything to me. I have spoken to a guy who doesn't post here anymore about making the trip. I want as good of an inspection as possible and I figured if they were going to fly it too, they would be careful!
 
I hired a test pilot to do my first flight, and he gave the plane a much more detailed inspection than the DAR did! But I guess I would too if it was my butt up in a new aircraft.
 
I've had one inspection by a DAR and it was mostly a paper work inspection. No covers or cowl were removed, he did ask me to run the engine up, which I did and he looked into the cockpit to glance at the instruments. A lot of money for someone to basically proof read government forms going to the FAA.
 
rv4bill said:
I've built and have helped build quite a few Seareys, and an Explorer.

The last one I had built myself and had inspected, the DAR walked around the plane 1 time, moved the stick to the side and then went and sat at a table to fill out paperwork and sign off.

I nerved up and asked him why he didn't really look over anything as far as the aircraft itself was concerned. I'll try to quote as close as I can remember...
"i'm not flying in it, I assume you will be. It's not my job to know how everything is constructed or how it will perform. It's my job to make sure your paperwork is perfect as far as the FAA is concerned. Congrats on your new aircraft, here are your parameters for phase 1 of how far outside of this airport you can fly, Have a nice day."

If it were always that easy...

Just my experience, not agreeing or disagreeing.
Click to expand...

Iwould never want an inpsection by someone like this. Sorry, but these are compicated projects and I feel I have an ethical obligation to insure the safety of your first flight. I always inspect them as if I am going to fly it myself. I know some don't want an inspection like that as it is perceived as some kind of "test." It is not. I have to put my head on the pillow at night and I want you to be able to do that as well. :) There have been a couple that I have refused to do because the conversation starts out with a bad attitude towards the inspection process.

I don't view it as an inspection. It is a thorough preflight. Who wouldn't want that???

Vic
 
FAA/DAR inspection references

The FAA page describing the inspection is here.
But there is a much more comprehensive page here.
Of course, the folks at the EAA and the EAA website are very knowledgeable and eager to help. The EAA's AB-DAR program is described here.
And as the variety of responses has shown, each DAR is a universe unto himself! ;) I identified and contacted my preferred DAR (Ted DeSantis in the PHX area) with about 6 months to go, and invited him to come over and see the project, and then met with him for ~30 min a week prior to the inspection to go over any paperwork issues. This made the final inspection quick and easy.
Note that the "airworthiness" inspector does not sign your log or in any way officially imply that he thinks the plane is airworthy. You do that! His primary job is to make sure you've complied with all the relevant regs, and then give you the opportunity to fly it and find out!
 
At a bare minimum a DAR or FAA ASI is required to inspect the aircraft as follows:

(1) The ID plate meets the requirements of § 45.11(a), as applicable.
(2) The information on the ID plate matches the information on FAA Form 8130-6 and Aeronautical Center Form 8050-3. The pink copy of Aeronautical Center Form AC 8050-1 cannot be used for original certification.
(3) The aircraft nationality and registration marks are in accordance with part 45, subpart C, Nationality and Registration Marks.
(4) The flight control system, engine(s), propeller(s), pitot static system, and associated instruments operate properly.
(5) The cockpit instruments are appropriately marked, and needed placards are installed and placed for easy reference.
(6) System controls (for example, fuel selector(s) and electrical switches/breakers) are appropriately placed, clearly marked, provide easy access and operation, and function as intended by the amateur builder/owner.
(7) An ELT is installed, if required (§ 91.207).
(8) All explosive devices used in ballistic parachutes are clearly marked and identified. A “stay clear, danger” or similar placard must be installed on the exterior, near where the parachute exits the aircraft.

The inspector must also determine that the aircraft meets the requirements for amateur-built status. These requirements are listed in FAA Order 8130.2H.
Most all DARs that I know will go well beyond the minimum requirements and give the aircraft a thorough inspection checking for short bolts, loose jam nuts, missing cotter pins, missing or improperly installed safety wire, weeping brake and/or fuel fittings, etc.

As Vic said, we have to sleep at night and that can be difficult if we lay there thinking about what we might have missed on an inspection. We're not perfect and can miss things too, but we have a lot of experience and when you add that to your already in-depth inspection, hopefully we will catch 99% of all discrepancies.

As far as a "Condition Inspection" goes, you will have done that off before the inspector arrives.
Hope this helps.
 
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My FAA guy spent an hour talking to me. We covered enough ground for him to know I knew what I was doing. He did a 10 minute inspection of the plane and I got a pink slip. I will give him some credit though, he did confirm my control surfaces operated in the correct relation to stick movement.

I had no desire to have an FAA employee provide me insight into my build. I hired a test pilot for my first couple flights (QP program). He was very experienced with RV's and he spent over 2 hours looking over my build for problems and common errors. It was great to have an experienced hand help with the first couple flights.

Larry
 
I agree with Larry aboutt FAA employees. They don't know anything about airplanes. That's how they got FAA jobs. Can anyone tell me the last FAA administrator that held a pilot's or mechanic's license?
 
aerhed said:
I agree with Larry aboutt FAA employees. They don't know anything about airplanes. That's how they got FAA jobs. Can anyone tell me the last FAA administrator that held a pilot's or mechanic's license?
Click to expand...

Not true about the guys at the Indianapolis FSDO. They did a thorough job, just like Mel's list, they were timely (less than a week from initial contact), and they were FREE. Mine was even the first E-LSA that they inspected and the guy brought along the written procedures and things worked out great.

I feel bad for parts of the country where the FAA is less than cooperative or knowledgeable. I guess we're lucky.
 
AI

Lucky in Milwaukee also. Connie Martin, chief inspector at the MKE FSDO, was knowledgable, helpful, easy to schedule and quite thorough. She wanted to help me get flying. Not actively flying herself, but she had PPL and a twin rating IIRC. just excellent!
 
aerhed said:
I agree with Larry aboutt FAA employees. They don't know anything about airplanes. That's how they got FAA jobs. Can anyone tell me the last FAA administrator that held a pilot's or mechanic's license?
Click to expand...

Yes, Randy Babbit 2009-2011 was an airline pilot

Robert Stugell 2007-2009

David Hinson 1993 - 1996

It appears the three females from 97-02 (Garvey) and 02-07 (Blakely) and 09-09 (Osmus) were probably the only ones that did not have pilot's licenses, as well as the present guy Huerta.
 
az_gila said:
Yes, Randy Babbit 2009-2011 was an airline pilot

Robert Stugell 2007-2009

David Hinson 1993 - 1996

It appears the three females from 97-02 (Garvey) and 02-07 (Blakely) and 09-09 (Osmus) were probably the only ones that did not have pilot's licenses, as well as the present guy Huerta.
Click to expand...

And I'll add that I gave Mr. Babbitt his fam ride in the good old Space Shuttle Simulator and he did quite well as I recall. We joked about him not having his log book along so I could sign it off for him as dual.....

Seriously, it is easy to throw darts at any group of people based on the performance of a few within that group. Easy...and unfair. I've run into a great many outstanding FAA types, a good many who were willign to work with me to understand their own rules - and then one or two who were just annoying. But most are trying to do good things within the rules by which they have to abide.
 
Ah! So, not as bad at the top as I thought. Maybe not so bad at some of the FSDO's also. Our FSFO is down to one guy and two dozen empty desks. Our paper has all been shifted to Denver, which at least is way better than Salt Lake. Maybe I'm skewed by past stuff. Casper guys have been good, but they're gone now.
 
Ironflight said:
And I'll add that I gave Mr. Babbitt his fam ride in the good old Space Shuttle Simulator and he did quite well as I recall...
Click to expand...

(Way off-topic)

Paul, did you used to come out to the VMS at Ames when they'd put the Shuttle cab on it every year or so?

After the astronauts were done with it, they'd do a couple approaches each for NASA people, and one year I managed to weasel my way onto the list through a contractor friend.

I think I got five approaches and only stuck two of them. One of those was a HUD-out into Edwards; the deck angle and time constants were just like an HP-11 glider approach with flaps 90.

Thanks, Bob K.
 
Thanks all...

As far as a "Condition Inspection" goes, you will have done that off before the inspector arrives.
Hope this helps.
Click to expand...

Thanks for that Mel. I think your comment explains what I and many others did
not understand. When I read the term "Airworthiness Inspection" I actually believed the DAR was going to inspect my -6a for "Airworthiness"... Silly me.

Fortunately, we have folks like Mel and Vic, both respected DAR's who put integrity and safety first. They could be saving lives by doing it the moral vs. expedient way and deserve thanks from all of us for their example.

Thanks to others who responded and added to our knowledge of how the "system" works... To me this deal verges on the fraudulant by it's wording if nothing else.

Jerry
 
Bob Kuykendall said:
(Way off-topic)

Paul, did you used to come out to the VMS at Ames when they'd put the Shuttle cab on it every year or so?

After the astronauts were done with it, they'd do a couple approaches each for NASA people, and one year I managed to weasel my way onto the list through a contractor friend.

I think I got five approaches and only stuck two of them. One of those was a HUD-out into Edwards; the deck angle and time constants were just like an HP-11 glider approach with flaps 90.

Thanks, Bob K.
Click to expand...

Yes, I spent many weeks each year flying the VMS doing development flight testing back in the late 80's, developing upgrades to the Shuttle landing/decel systems, including the drag chute. Way too many good stories .....
 
Oakland FSDO sent out a very nice employee to inspect my RV when the time came. He was pretty thorough and was a long time A&P before joining the FAA. At the end he said "you made a nice plane", here's your paperwork.
 
I will add this...

Folks,

About 12 yrs ago, a close friend finished up his -7a build with the hands on help of 5 or so others who who were RV familiar. The build took about a year . Fortunately he corralled a local FAA guy for the inspection. This fellow, well known here, did a very thorough inspection, which I and others witnessed and helped with. About to wrap it up when was discovered that rudder had no nuts on the 3 hinge bolts, so that put a stop to the project until that and a few more minor issues were remedied. This after everyone else had had many looks and missed it entirely.

So, makes one wonder how much is missed on the FAA's concept of an Airworthiness Inspection and the DAR's who do the minimum required.

Unless things change maybe one should have an "Inspection Party" with RV buddies PRIOR to the DAR's visit as well as a thorough vetting of same.

Hey, it's only our lives...

Jerry
 
Amen, Jerry!!

Experience has taught me that the gremlins are there and they are real good at hiding, sometimes in plain sight. The objective is to find them before they find us!
Great attitude. :)

Vic
 
vic syracuse said:
Experience has taught me that the gremlins are there and they are real good at hiding, sometimes in plain sight. The objective is to find them before they find us!
Click to expand...

True story/confession:

During my first annual condition inspection on the JN-4C, I found no nut on the bolt pinning the aileron rod ends to the arm on the control torque tube. I had designed it as a double shear joint with the rod ends trapped and the bolt head forward/up per good practice, so the bolt had stayed in there about 80 flight hours, included Phase 1, Alabama to OSH and back, SERFI and back, and lots of fun flying.

Here's the thing. The joint was plainly visible with the seat out, or by cursory glance under the seat with a mirror, or by looking in through the stirrup hole in the side of the fuselage. I routinely stuffed things under the seat when parked, and looked through that stirrup hole to make sure everything was out when preflighting. Thousands of people had looked at the airplane at the shows, many in detail, including two sets of show judges. All my buddies had helped with eyeballs during assembly, and when prepping for the shows. And of course, a good DAR had done an inspection.

It was a good lesson.

 
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