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CHT Recommendation

istrumit

Well Known Member
Hello VAF.

The CHTs on my 10 are actually in OK shape. They vary from 360-390F depending on the usual factors.

But, fully loaded, hot day, Cyl#1 will go just above 400F unless I drop the nose to 125 kts.

The other cylinders stay about 10F cooler.

I have read that trimming down the air dam on #1 is a good step and I checked. The air dam has never been trimmed. It is as-built.

So, finally, my question...seems like I could get more climb time out of the airplane if I could just keep #1 a little cooler...

How much of the air dam to remove ? a few mm ? 1/2 inch ?

Any experimented with this ?

Scott
 
My vote 1/8 inch at a time

experiments. My goal is balanced full throttle cruise at 8,000 msl. But nothing wrong with goals split between climb and cruise, IMHO. Balanced cruise may be close to balanced climb.
 
During the "experimental phase" you can do a rough trim by sticking a sheet of steel behind the dam to protect the cylinder and use your cutoff wheel to trim the dam. Once it is cut to the right height, it is up to you if you wish to remove that baffle section to give enough access to make it pretty.

My personal preference would be to cut a bit more than 1/8". I moved in 3/8" ish steps. Maybe I'm impatient? :):)
 
After experimenting with the air dams,

We ended up removing them completely, on our 10 --- tried trimming them a couple of times but the CHTs stayed a little too high. The complete removal cooled everything down.
 
take them off

As mentioned, take them off. It is much easier to drill the rivets holding the pieces on than to try trimming them while on the airplane. Chances are you will find you don't need them, BUT if you do, the easiest way to experiment is to now place some aluminum heat duct tape (available at HD/Lowe's, etc) across the front of the fins. It's easy to trim the tape to shape a little at a time with a razor blade. Then either leave it on or trim the aluminum dams to shape and re-rivet them back on with some pop rivets.

Vic
 
...But, fully loaded, hot day, Cyl#1 will go just above 400F unless I drop the nose to 125 kts...

Nothing wrong with "just over" 400, especially if it only occurs during a climb condition and can be controlled with airspeed.

...So, finally, my question...seems like I could get more climb time out of the airplane if I could just keep #1 a little cooler...

What is the ROC at 125? Is it significantly different than your "best" ROC? I suspect that your 125 is still steeper than a typical "cruise climb", and as such, it likely significantly out performs most "normal" airplanes.

The point is, do you really "need" to eke out a few more FPM in a sustained climb? And if so, are you willing to pay the penalty for that significant additional cooling capacity while in cruise?
 
Nothing wrong with "just over" 400, especially if it only occurs during a climb condition and can be controlled with airspeed.



What is the ROC at 125? Is it significantly different than your "best" ROC? I suspect that your 125 is still steeper than a typical "cruise climb", and as such, it likely significantly out performs most "normal" airplanes.

The point is, do you really "need" to eke out a few more FPM in a sustained climb? And if so, are you willing to pay the penalty for that significant additional cooling capacity while in cruise?

I totally agree.

The quest for balanced cooling will always be a compromise between climb and cruise.
You will spend most your time in cruise mode. If the CHT balance is already pretty good in that flight condition, effecting that to get a small (and unneeded in my opinion) change for climb is not worth the time it takes to do it.
 
At 125 kt, on this particular hot day (not that there have been very many hot days this cool spring), it was staying at 398. Seems like the ROC was about 900 fpm, but I was really not concentrating on that. I was just experimenting with airspeed and CHT.

In cruise at 7500 ft, it was about 390.

On initial climb out at 104kt , it was at 402-405 within just a minute or two, which is why thought it would be good to trim that dam down a bit.

Non of the other Cylinders got with 10 degrees of those numbers.

FWIW - on all past flights, I have been alone and it has been cooler OAT and I could pretty much climb at whatever speed I chose indefinitely. Cruise CHTs in those cases was 350 ish.

Hot day, gross weight...thats what drove me to consider trimming.
 
What are #1, 3, and 5 CHTs in your typical cruise condition? If #1 is higher than the others, then consider trimming that front air dam. Follow Vic's suggestion to remove the rivets, experiment with tape. On mine I removed one air dam entirely, and cut the other in half.
PS If you plan to adjust your injectors to match the mixture ratios (highly recommended), do that first.
 
I have an IO-360-M1B on my RV-7 and consistently see 370-395 on my CHT's (#2 runs the hottest). I originally had the air dams installed but took them off after the first 20 hours since my CHT's were on the upper end of the heat range. I noticed a little change after removing mine, but it wasn't significant so I wouldn't think removing 1/2" or 1" is going to do much for you. I would suggest removing them completely.
 
I have an IO-360-M1B on my RV-7 and consistently see 370-395 on my CHT's (#2 runs the hottest). I originally had the air dams installed but took them off after the first 20 hours since my CHT's were on the upper end of the heat range. I noticed a little change after removing mine, but it wasn't significant so I wouldn't think removing 1/2" or 1" is going to do much for you. I would suggest removing them completely.

Do a little at a time. I took about 1/4 at a time off mine, got nothing, nothing, nothing, then a bunch with the last 1/4 inch. Sometimes a little doesn't do much, but sometimes it does ;).

-Dan
 
For those that have not completed the baffle system, instead of riveting the air dams, consider using nut plates. You can the easily remove them for modification. A bit overkill perhaps as once you're dialed in, they won't be removed again, but at this stage of the build, most can zip in a few nut plates pretty quickly and easily. You do have to work around the rivets holding the angle, so plan accordingly.
 
For those that have not completed the baffle system, instead of riveting the air dams, consider using nut plates. You can the easily remove them for modification. A bit overkill perhaps as once you're dialed in, they won't be removed again, but at this stage of the build, most can zip in a few nut plates pretty quickly and easily. You do have to work around the rivets holding the angle, so plan accordingly.

That is a good idea and I thought about that during my baffle construction but after mocking up the nutplates, I didn't have enough clearance between the nutplate and the cooling fins on my IO540. I'm sure I'll be drilling out the rivets to remove the dams.
 
Do a little at a time. I took about 1/4 at a time off mine, got nothing, nothing, nothing, then a bunch with the last 1/4 inch. Sometimes a little doesn't do much, but sometimes it does ;).

-Dan
Yeah, removing that last little bit increases the cooling in a very nonlinear way!

Ambient temps factor into this a lot. I'll be flying on days where the temp exceeds 100 F, so the best solution was to remove the air dams entirely.
 
I think I like Vic's suggestion to just remove the dams and experiment with aluminum tape.

Now I have to work out how to remove the three rivets at the base of the dams.

Is there a safe/quick/simple way to do this ? Remove the cowling and drill them out ?
 
RV10 with 1300+ hours, and I know a bit about the topic, we trimmed away?..and in the end drilled out the rivets.

Just remove them. End of problem.

Instrumit,

1. While we are at it, what throttle, RPM and mixture management are you using in the climb?

2. What magneto's or EI's are you using and where are they timed to?

3. When in the cruise what engine management regime are you using?

4. Do you have the louvres in the lower cowl and can you post some pictures of the baffles and rubbers.

5. Are you using Avgas/100LL?

The reason I ask is our -10 lives mostly in Queensland?.a bit like Texas. We climb with IAS around 120-125, and CHT is usually in the 350-370 range climbing with cruise varying from 330-350 on the worst days to typically 310-335 the rest of the time.

There are 5 RV10's around here, 3 with air conditioning and the CHT's on all of them are within normal tolerances of ours.
 
1. I don't recall,but typically max/max and mixture so that fuel is slightly below high flow alarm...so nearly full rich. So what is High Fuel Flow? The fuel flow at sea level on a typical day should be around 25.5 USG/hr, the EGT values at that flow should be maintained in the climb.

2. On mechanical mag, on electronic mag. Can you dial out 2-3 degrees of advance on the EI? If so this would help. Also check your magneto carefully.

3. Typically WOT/2400 and LOP to about 12-13 GPH. I assume this is at 4-6,000' as the flow would not be LOPif up higher.

4. Yes and posted below. I see two issues here, one is I do not know how the louvres perform in the side. Factory and almost every other I have seen have them underneath. YMMV on this. The next is the plenum you have built. I know some folk have them and they may work, I can only say 100% of the CHT complaints I hear also have built a plenum. YMMV again.

http://imgur.com/NF2NrgT
http://imgur.com/PYKBbRD

5. 100LL

Thanks again.

Scott

If it were me, I would remove the little tabs, adjust the timing, and contemplate the baffles.
 
Having been military jet trained, I am fairly new to pistons. But I do understand limits.

As I understand, the CHT limit is 500 with the recommendation to avoid continuous operation above 435 - I'll read that as max continuous. So what is it with this 400 thing?

Sure, I understand keep everything cool if possible. I am still running things in having only about 35 hours on the aircraft. In the climb, I hit about 415 on the hottest. Cruise is around 360. I am still adjusting things to get it lower but I really don't see why there should be an issue with numbers such as this.

Please feel free to educate me,i
 
Having been military jet trained, I am fairly new to pistons. But I do understand limits.

As I understand, the CHT limit is 500 with the recommendation to avoid continuous operation above 435 - I'll read that as max continuous. So what is it with this 400 thing?

Sure, I understand keep everything cool if possible. I am still running things in having only about 35 hours on the aircraft. In the climb, I hit about 415 on the hottest. Cruise is around 360. I am still adjusting things to get it lower but I really don't see why there should be an issue with numbers such as this.

Please feel free to educate me,i

Don't remember the specifics, but from past reading I believe the 400 number comes from the precipitous drop in the strength of aluminum (barrel to cylinder connection) in those higher ranges. Don't think temp climb #s such as yours would be an issue - more so the constant cruise temps.
 
It's "ECB"

So what is it with this 400 thing?

It is "ECB" Experimental Compulsive Behavior.:rolleyes:
As I understand, the CHT limit is 500 with the recommendation to avoid continuous operation above 435

I don't run anywhere near 400, not in climb or any other time but my reasons have nothing to do with metallurgy.
 
Having been military jet trained, I am fairly new to pistons. But I do understand limits.

As I understand, the CHT limit is 500 with the recommendation to avoid continuous operation above 435 - I'll read that as max continuous. So what is it with this 400 thing?

Sure, I understand keep everything cool if possible. I am still running things in having only about 35 hours on the aircraft. In the climb, I hit about 415 on the hottest. Cruise is around 360. I am still adjusting things to get it lower but I really don't see why there should be an issue with numbers such as this.

Please feel free to educate me,i


Paul, there are a few things to consider.

500dF is a certification test limit, depending on who you want to believe at Lyc/TCM the recommended cruise limit is anywhere from 400-435dF. Lycoming publish the 400dF limit (which would read as 435 with a spark plug sensor and 400 with a bayonet) in one manual or bulletin and a different number in another.

Just to make matters worse, Continental publish a document for the TSIO-550-B,C & E. In that they list max cruise temps for the -B at 380dF and the -E at 420dF, yet the Max allowable is 460dF for both. Same HP engine, just a different oil pan. :cool:

We know that the aircraft OEM got sick of phone calls complaining about the red line CHT (due to baffles and poor mixture management ROP etc.) that they asked the engine OEM to help?..they did ;) Try getting a stroke of the pen these days to fix any of the bloopers though.

Given the metals are fundamentally the same, and we know from detonation testing that from 420dF things start getting serious especially for the non-intercooled turbo engines at or above 420, that a sensible alarm limit of 400 gives the pilot enough warning to deal with any emerging problem.

There is no big deal if you normally have an engine that climbs at 380, and on a hot day, heavy load etc you have to climb steeper and hit 400, even 405, but you should be alerted to the emerging issue.

More importantly is the far more common problem (not common as in everyone has this happen once a year common) is that a cracked ceramic leads to a preignition event. These are very damaging and do kill a cylinder in a matter of 1-3 minutes. If your alarm is set at 400dF you get that alert at the 1 minute mark or sooner. If you get it at 500dF you get that alert about the time significant damage is starting and if you fall for the ?.I wonder if it is a bad probe, and sit there watching for a minute longer :eek:. Bad things follow.

The wise old folk who know their stuff all agree, a good installation flown properly will cruise under 380dF, often a fair bit lower. They will accept the odd excursion over 400, but they want to be doing something proactive by 410.

The strength of the alloy used in the heads varies from 95% of yield at around the 300dF range down to 80% at about 370dF and drops rapidly to 70% at 400dF and then to around 30% at the Lycoming red lines. At the 435dF mark it is around 50-55%.

It's your engine, armed with the facts, do what you will. ;)
 
UPDATE:

Cylinders 1/3/5 had always been hotter that 2/4/6, with #1 being the hottest and the one that limited my climb rate.

After entirely removing the air dam in front of #1, all 6 cylinders are cooler, esp #1 and in two different test flights I have not been climb limited by heat.

So far...it looks like a good change.
 
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