[email protected] said:
Warminster is in Bucks County. If you interested in finding out about RV's in your area check out the Yahoo Group, Mid - Atlantic RV group. I have met up with a couple of RV'ers out of Carrol County MD.
Doug
Van's Air Force
Don't miss anything! Register now for full access to the definitive RV support community.
RV Fire
- Thread starter Vern
- Start date
Warminster is in Bucks County. If you interested in finding out about RV's in your area check out the Yahoo Group, Mid - Atlantic RV group. I have met up with a couple of RV'ers out of Carrol County MD.
Doug
wyoflyer
Active Member
posted last year but relevant
The fuel pump on my RV6/0-360 has been flucuating quit a bit lately and generally trending downward, pressurewise. Flew yesterday and happened to glance at the pressure gauge and it was at 1 lb.! Turned the elec. fuel pump on and pressure came up right away.
Decided, that's it, time for a new fuel pump (this one is brand new with 50 hrs.) Removed the cowl and started removing hoses etc. from the pump. I have Van's primer set-up which runs a small copper line from a T fitting on suction side of pump to an on-off solonoid running to cylinder heads. In the process of removing the flared nut from this fitting, the flare/sleeve assembly fell on the hanger floor. Deciding this could have well been the problem, I reflared the copper line, reattached it to the fitting and also supported it closer to the fuel pump..went out and flew, and problem solved. Pressure back up to almost 5 lbs. all the time and steady......The scarey part though, is when I thought back to when I applied elec. fuel pump. Fuel had to be spraying down onto the exhaust.....not a good situation. I left the electrical pump on for the rest of the flight, thinking I would be safer. Thought "maybe" I could detect a faint smell of fuel but wasn't real sure, so just kept the pump on.....not a good situation.
Just a heads up on something to check when you have your cowl off next time. The line going into the pump looked completely normal and I guess the best way to check something like that would be to turn on elec. pump with the cowl off and look for leaks and/or manipulate the small copper tubing at the fittings. Fly Safe!
Dave Mader
RV6/50 hrs.
Have since switched to stainless with no problems!
The fuel pump on my RV6/0-360 has been flucuating quit a bit lately and generally trending downward, pressurewise. Flew yesterday and happened to glance at the pressure gauge and it was at 1 lb.! Turned the elec. fuel pump on and pressure came up right away.
Decided, that's it, time for a new fuel pump (this one is brand new with 50 hrs.) Removed the cowl and started removing hoses etc. from the pump. I have Van's primer set-up which runs a small copper line from a T fitting on suction side of pump to an on-off solonoid running to cylinder heads. In the process of removing the flared nut from this fitting, the flare/sleeve assembly fell on the hanger floor. Deciding this could have well been the problem, I reflared the copper line, reattached it to the fitting and also supported it closer to the fuel pump..went out and flew, and problem solved. Pressure back up to almost 5 lbs. all the time and steady......The scarey part though, is when I thought back to when I applied elec. fuel pump. Fuel had to be spraying down onto the exhaust.....not a good situation. I left the electrical pump on for the rest of the flight, thinking I would be safer. Thought "maybe" I could detect a faint smell of fuel but wasn't real sure, so just kept the pump on.....not a good situation.
Just a heads up on something to check when you have your cowl off next time. The line going into the pump looked completely normal and I guess the best way to check something like that would be to turn on elec. pump with the cowl off and look for leaks and/or manipulate the small copper tubing at the fittings. Fly Safe!
Dave Mader
RV6/50 hrs.
Have since switched to stainless with no problems!
Akutan Bandit
Member
Catching up on old threads and found this. Want to chime in on personal experience and ask a question.
Years ago I left an airport in Alaska where my employer maintained their airplanes in a newly serviced Navajo. On climbout I noticed somewhat but not alarmingly low fuel-flow on the right engine, and radio'd back to discuss this with the maintenance dept. They assured me the numbers were within limits I elected to continue the flight (with pax on board and out into some very very remote country down the Chain). The flight was normal but I continued to fiddle with the mixture, and being new to the airplane was unsure of my assesment at the time. After landing I brought up the issue with our resident mechanic, who took a 20 second look at the airplane and spotted a problem. Without removing a single screw he spotted a thin area of blue dye at the louvers in the cowling. Opened it up and all the fuel injectors were loose, only finger tight, and fuel was leaking into the engine compartment on a TIO-540 with all the associated plumbing. Some heads rolled in maintenance and they never yelled at me again for asking a "dumb question."
So my question now is regarding the dye. I usually run Mo-Gas in the airplane I own now, and would like to stain the fuel in the interests of early leak detection. Does anyone here know of a safe dye to put in clear fuel that is safe to run in Lycomings?
Years ago I left an airport in Alaska where my employer maintained their airplanes in a newly serviced Navajo. On climbout I noticed somewhat but not alarmingly low fuel-flow on the right engine, and radio'd back to discuss this with the maintenance dept. They assured me the numbers were within limits I elected to continue the flight (with pax on board and out into some very very remote country down the Chain). The flight was normal but I continued to fiddle with the mixture, and being new to the airplane was unsure of my assesment at the time. After landing I brought up the issue with our resident mechanic, who took a 20 second look at the airplane and spotted a problem. Without removing a single screw he spotted a thin area of blue dye at the louvers in the cowling. Opened it up and all the fuel injectors were loose, only finger tight, and fuel was leaking into the engine compartment on a TIO-540 with all the associated plumbing. Some heads rolled in maintenance and they never yelled at me again for asking a "dumb question."
So my question now is regarding the dye. I usually run Mo-Gas in the airplane I own now, and would like to stain the fuel in the interests of early leak detection. Does anyone here know of a safe dye to put in clear fuel that is safe to run in Lycomings?
jetjok
Well Known Member
30 Sec
I am only speaking for the procedures at my carrier, but we shoot the bottle immediately after shutting down the engine, closing the fuel, hyd, pneumatic shutoff valves, and opening the generator relay. Then we wait 30 sec to see if the fire goes out. If not, then we discharge the other bottle. If the fire is still not out, we will be landing shortly at the nearest piece of concrete, irrespective of our current weight!!
I am only speaking for the procedures at my carrier, but we shoot the bottle immediately after shutting down the engine, closing the fuel, hyd, pneumatic shutoff valves, and opening the generator relay. Then we wait 30 sec to see if the fire goes out. If not, then we discharge the other bottle. If the fire is still not out, we will be landing shortly at the nearest piece of concrete, irrespective of our current weight!!
Sobering indeed.
Once my airplane gets back from paint, I'm going to have anohter close look at all my FWF lines. Most of them are the firesleeved flex lines that came with my FWF kit from Vans. But I think I put a short copper piece from my gascolator... I will probably order up a small diameter braided SS line from Bonaco to replace this. All in-cabin fuel and brake lines, and brake lines down gear legs are already SS bonaco lines.
I use MIL-PRF-82282 brake fluid (much higher flash point than the stuff Vans sells).
I am also going to order up a nomex flight suit from flightsuits.com.
I'm also going to apply insulating material to my cowl where it is closest to the exhaust.
Regarding exhaust cracks, when they start to crack, is there a practical repair, or is that when it's time to pull them off and replace?
Once my airplane gets back from paint, I'm going to have anohter close look at all my FWF lines. Most of them are the firesleeved flex lines that came with my FWF kit from Vans. But I think I put a short copper piece from my gascolator... I will probably order up a small diameter braided SS line from Bonaco to replace this. All in-cabin fuel and brake lines, and brake lines down gear legs are already SS bonaco lines.
I use MIL-PRF-82282 brake fluid (much higher flash point than the stuff Vans sells).
I am also going to order up a nomex flight suit from flightsuits.com.
I'm also going to apply insulating material to my cowl where it is closest to the exhaust.
Regarding exhaust cracks, when they start to crack, is there a practical repair, or is that when it's time to pull them off and replace?
Akutan Bandit
Member
This forum motivated me to recheck the condition of my lines.
When I purchased my airplane only 1 line was firesleeved. I replaced a couple of rough looking lines, and firesleeved everything else that I thought was important. I thought it was prefect, but builders here always seem to do it better, and after checking last night I see that my fuel pressure sending unit line is bare as is my primer line, which is hard copper with only a loop for pressure relief between engine and firewall. Time to buy some more firesleeve and clamps for the fuel pressure supply line.
On primer lines, is a braided line the best choice for something of such small diameter? I've never used firesleeve that small either, but it looks like Bonaco carries 1/4" size, but Spruce only carries it to 1/2".
When I purchased my airplane only 1 line was firesleeved. I replaced a couple of rough looking lines, and firesleeved everything else that I thought was important. I thought it was prefect, but builders here always seem to do it better, and after checking last night I see that my fuel pressure sending unit line is bare as is my primer line, which is hard copper with only a loop for pressure relief between engine and firewall. Time to buy some more firesleeve and clamps for the fuel pressure supply line.
On primer lines, is a braided line the best choice for something of such small diameter? I've never used firesleeve that small either, but it looks like Bonaco carries 1/4" size, but Spruce only carries it to 1/2".
az_gila
Well Known Member
Is a primer line...
...a major fire hazard in flight?
They are not pressurized, so if there is a rupture, little should squirt (dribble) out, and the volume of fuel in them is minimal.
They seem a quite different hazard from the same 1/8 copper lines that feed a mechanical fuel pressure gauge.
...a major fire hazard in flight?
They are not pressurized, so if there is a rupture, little should squirt (dribble) out, and the volume of fuel in them is minimal.
They seem a quite different hazard from the same 1/8 copper lines that feed a mechanical fuel pressure gauge.
Last edited:
fire shield
I've been thinking of "fire shielding" a lot lately. Has anyone considered adding a thin sheet of stainless riveted over the lower fuselage skin (on the outside) between the firewall and the spar? The idea is to prevent burn through of the alum skin not necesarilly radiated heat transfer to the cabin floor area. If there's a fuel fire, i'm thinking that all the fire will exit the bottom cowl (at first anyway) until the fuel is burned away. I'm also considering a "fire detector" mounted in the cowl exit area as well and connecting it to a spare EIS input, just to get my attention sooner.
Bevan
I've been thinking of "fire shielding" a lot lately. Has anyone considered adding a thin sheet of stainless riveted over the lower fuselage skin (on the outside) between the firewall and the spar? The idea is to prevent burn through of the alum skin not necesarilly radiated heat transfer to the cabin floor area. If there's a fuel fire, i'm thinking that all the fire will exit the bottom cowl (at first anyway) until the fuel is burned away. I'm also considering a "fire detector" mounted in the cowl exit area as well and connecting it to a spare EIS input, just to get my attention sooner.
Bevan
midwest rv-10
Active Member
Fireshield
Bevan,
I would suggest you do a search under fireproofing and or firewall and see the ground already covered on this. Dan Horton has tested several types of flame resistant/retardant products. After seeing his results I too got thinking about my choice of firewall product and decided I had installed the absolute worst thing out there. Over the winter I removed all of the nameless black sound deadener with aluminum foil backing and installed 1/2'' ceramic blanket and covered it with .002 stainless steel foil, and used foil tape to hold it in place on the cabin side of the firewall. The ceramic blanket runs about 12" on to the floorboard also to protect from the floor burning through as was reported to occur during a fuel fed fire. I'm not saying my solution is the perfect way but way better than what was there. I have noticed significantly less heat transfer from the engine side. Thanks Dan, for getting alot of us thinking about proper firewall insulation/protection.
Don Orrick
RV-10 N410JA
Bevan,
I would suggest you do a search under fireproofing and or firewall and see the ground already covered on this. Dan Horton has tested several types of flame resistant/retardant products. After seeing his results I too got thinking about my choice of firewall product and decided I had installed the absolute worst thing out there. Over the winter I removed all of the nameless black sound deadener with aluminum foil backing and installed 1/2'' ceramic blanket and covered it with .002 stainless steel foil, and used foil tape to hold it in place on the cabin side of the firewall. The ceramic blanket runs about 12" on to the floorboard also to protect from the floor burning through as was reported to occur during a fuel fed fire. I'm not saying my solution is the perfect way but way better than what was there. I have noticed significantly less heat transfer from the engine side. Thanks Dan, for getting alot of us thinking about proper firewall insulation/protection.
Don Orrick
RV-10 N410JA
wrongway john
Well Known Member
I?ll be sure and revisit this thread when it comes to the FWF on my 4. We had this plane last week catch on fire in my hometown. Once it was put out, there was nothing left of it. This guy was luckily taxiing and was able to get out. Gosh, at any altitude at all, it seems like there isn?t much time. This will sober you up real quick!
http://www.timesrecordnews.com/news/2010/apr/01/fire-destroys-small-plane/
http://www.timesrecordnews.com/news/2010/apr/01/fire-destroys-small-plane/
fodrv7
Well Known Member
Two Bottles
I am sure that is standard procedure in airliners, as promulgated in the manufacturers manual.
And it's great . . . if you have TWO(2) fire bottles.
If not (i.e. You only have one) I would wait thirty seconds for the fuel supply to the fire to diminish after shutting off the fuel, before firing the one and only bottle.
Pete.
I am sure that is standard procedure in airliners, as promulgated in the manufacturers manual.
And it's great . . . if you have TWO(2) fire bottles.
If not (i.e. You only have one) I would wait thirty seconds for the fuel supply to the fire to diminish after shutting off the fuel, before firing the one and only bottle.
Pete.
Akutan Bandit
Member
After doing some more reading on this I'm going to leave my copper line. Gil is right regarding the lack of fuel in this line imo, plus a coiled copper line (coiled for flex) seems to be a decent standard application in aircraft. I'm going to firesleeve my sending unit line however.
I'd like to say that any type of fire sensor in the engine compartment is better than nothing, but I've seen some poor ones. In the old 99's I flew a while back we had optical smoke sensors, and they would come on quite often when in IMC conditions because they were seeing clouds and telling you it was smoke. Very confidence inspiring when on a low IFR approach at night to have both fire lights go off at the same time.
What about a simple twisted wire pair wired to a circuit lamp in the cockpit? That seems elegant and reliable. These are mentioned in the forums in multiple locations.
I've got something similar to that mounted at the cowling air exit. Two loops of solder on blocks connected in parallel. If they both melt, light comes on.
teflon hoses and firesleeve
From a newbee, but one that builds alot of hoses for vaious things---
I've seen several planes with just the fuel supply hoses firesleeved, not the pressure to sender, or any of the other hoses firewall forward. There is a picture on this thread of a flow transducer mounted othe firewall, that could be exposed. Not having built a RV, but having been invloved in plumbing some, we have taken potential "heat related incidents" seriously. Steel braided teflon is the way to go, BUT, remember that the liner is teflon and can withstand a fluid temp of 450*----but can also melt rapidly if exposed to heat sources. An unprotected oil hose, or fuel pressure hose is asking for trouble.
Now, (remember that I'm a newbee) aluminum tubing has been in use for decades, and properly routed, flared, and in some cases protected, should last for the lifetime of the airplane. But, like that been stated on this thread, aluminum burns rapidly, as do AN aluminum fittings. I guess my question would be if stainless tubing in appropriate locations would better, even though its alittle heavier?
Tom
From a newbee, but one that builds alot of hoses for vaious things---
I've seen several planes with just the fuel supply hoses firesleeved, not the pressure to sender, or any of the other hoses firewall forward. There is a picture on this thread of a flow transducer mounted othe firewall, that could be exposed. Not having built a RV, but having been invloved in plumbing some, we have taken potential "heat related incidents" seriously. Steel braided teflon is the way to go, BUT, remember that the liner is teflon and can withstand a fluid temp of 450*----but can also melt rapidly if exposed to heat sources. An unprotected oil hose, or fuel pressure hose is asking for trouble.
Now, (remember that I'm a newbee) aluminum tubing has been in use for decades, and properly routed, flared, and in some cases protected, should last for the lifetime of the airplane. But, like that been stated on this thread, aluminum burns rapidly, as do AN aluminum fittings. I guess my question would be if stainless tubing in appropriate locations would better, even though its alittle heavier?
Tom
PlaneBuilderBill
Well Known Member
Another kind of HOT problem
I read this thread with much interest....last week this happened to me. I was lucky (not to mention this scared the c_ _ p out of me). I hesitated posting as I don't want to cast any negatives on a good vendor, but it needs to be shown. I was Cruzing at 4,000 ft near Decatur, TX, there was a sudden very loud POP and a shower of shrapnel, sparks and black soot just under the instrument panel, just above the center tunnel! This was followed by two more POPS and more "stuff" flying all over the center tunnel, floor and my legs. As quick as I could I shut off all the electrical and closed the air inlets. I assesed the situation and at the moment the plane was flying, not on fire and I was basically OK. I was able to get my 4 back to Hicks and landed. See the accompanying pics. What happened???? Basically the ADI BackUp Battery box exploded! The shrapnel was the internal batteries and their contents. Hot but fortunately just embers and not on fire.
Of course I contacted TruTrak. They said they had never seen this happen before, but on further research said that one of the internal batteries had failed and the box continued to try to charge. This over heated the remainder and "blamo", you can see the damage. Enlarge the pics to see the detail.
[/URL][/IMG]
[/URL][/IMG]
[/URL][/IMG]
[/URL][/IMG]
I only received a minor burn on one leg, but I am going through my entire electrical system looking for any burned wires, etc. As far as TruTrak is concerned, they are supplying a different type of backup battery (in a metal case) with the opportunity to trade for a newer type of battery as soon as it becomes available. I am satisfied with their help, but the original plastic cased battery is (IMHO), not a good bet anywhere on my plane.
I read this thread with much interest....last week this happened to me. I was lucky (not to mention this scared the c_ _ p out of me). I hesitated posting as I don't want to cast any negatives on a good vendor, but it needs to be shown. I was Cruzing at 4,000 ft near Decatur, TX, there was a sudden very loud POP and a shower of shrapnel, sparks and black soot just under the instrument panel, just above the center tunnel! This was followed by two more POPS and more "stuff" flying all over the center tunnel, floor and my legs. As quick as I could I shut off all the electrical and closed the air inlets. I assesed the situation and at the moment the plane was flying, not on fire and I was basically OK. I was able to get my 4 back to Hicks and landed. See the accompanying pics. What happened???? Basically the ADI BackUp Battery box exploded! The shrapnel was the internal batteries and their contents. Hot but fortunately just embers and not on fire.
Of course I contacted TruTrak. They said they had never seen this happen before, but on further research said that one of the internal batteries had failed and the box continued to try to charge. This over heated the remainder and "blamo", you can see the damage. Enlarge the pics to see the detail.
I only received a minor burn on one leg, but I am going through my entire electrical system looking for any burned wires, etc. As far as TruTrak is concerned, they are supplying a different type of backup battery (in a metal case) with the opportunity to trade for a newer type of battery as soon as it becomes available. I am satisfied with their help, but the original plastic cased battery is (IMHO), not a good bet anywhere on my plane.
