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Crotch straps

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bob888

Well Known Member
I would like some opinions about crotch straps. I see 5 point belts from Crow and others but no apparent anchor for crotch strap in front. How about back seats, which do have anchor points for the crotch straps? My inclination is to go with 4 point restraints all around as this is not an aerobatic machine.
 
That's what I did. I cut off the rear anchor points. The danger in doing so is "submarining " during a sudden stop (accident) which I suspect will only happen if the lap belt isn't restraining the passenger properly or the passenger is too small.
D
 
I don't know the geometry of the -10 seats and belts, but I continue to regret not installing the crotch straps when I built my -6. Without the straps, the lap belt rides up if I properly tension the shoulder belts and I don't like the geometry of that. Also, when it is turbulent, a crotch strap would help prevent my head from bouncing off of the canopy top as frequently.
 
When I purchased it had 5-point on my side and 4-point for the passenger.

I'm replacing the interior and going with 5-point Hooker harnesses on both sides (they look awesome too!)

Pics will follow...
 
The RV-10 front seats have no provision for a crotch strap. As for the rear, I simply opted not to install the lugs and went with 4-point harnesses. I also went with Van's stock straps vs Hooker or Crow, they work just fine and match my interior perfectly.
 
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I am not flying yet, but have spent some time in a friend's -10 and would agree with Kyle's assessment. The geometry of the lap belt seems to pull the belt back more than down and if the shoulder straps are pulled tight the lap belt tends to ride up to a less desirable (and maybe somewhat dangerous) across the gut position. Wish there was a good solution to a front seat lap belt!
 
Safety harness

As a racer, let me provide another prospective.

Most racing sanctioning organizations demand a harness with a sub belt. Some sub belts have multiple attach points on the car. There is a potential for the lower body to go forward under the lap belt especially if the lap belt rides high. The lap belt keeps the lower body from going forward/up, and shoulder harnesses keeps the upper body from going forward. The sub belts help keep everything in proper position. If you don't have a sub belt, tighten the lap belt firmly and then tighten the shoulder harness just snug. Don't tighten a shoulder harness to the point where it pulls the lap belt up. The lap belt needs to ride at the pelvic bone to prevent injury at impact.

We used to drive cars on the street without seat belts. Would you do that now?

Bottom line is that harnesses prevent injury. Don't deny that bad things happen. The better your harness system is, the safer you are.

Jim
 
Well at the end of the day it's all about risk acceptance. For me I assume the risk of submarining without batting an eye and spend my energy trying to reduce the likelihood of ever having to rely on the seatbelts in the first place. YMMV....
 
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And yet another example of a decision that really can't, and shouldn't, be made via internet consensus. It is your life, and your airplane. Everyone needs to weigh for themselves the costs and benefits of their choices. FWIW, I understand that geometry of the rear seat makes the sub belt more useful/important than in the front. Personally, I make sure my rear seat passengers use the rear sub belt, and I wish I had one in the front too. But that is just me....
 
rocketman1988 said:
So the question remains, has anyone successfully figured a way to put one in the front seats of a -10?
Click to expand...

Yes. I would like this answer too. I have kept the crotch strap lugs in my rear seats because I would like 5 point harnesses back there. As the previous posts demonstrate, you must know a little more about what you're doing to make a 4-point work well. If coming in for an off airport landing, what is the likelyhood of a rear seat passnger doing this correctly. That being said, even if the front seat occupants are "more capable" I'd love to have 5-point harnesses in the front seats also. If anyone has engineered a way to do this, I'd be interested to know about it. If not, I suppose I'll continue with 4s in the front and 5s in the back.
 
C'mon Guys!

Someone out there has had to add (successfully) a sub belt to the front seats of the -10...speak up, inquiring minds would like to know...
 
front seat crotch straps

I have a configuration that may be of interest. I'm traveling, but will be home in a few days and will post pictures and details..
 
Did It...

We did install submarine belts in the front seat of our 10. I have had the occasion to actually use belts in race cars and owe my life to seat belts from a car accident. As someone mentioned the most important thing is to keep the lap belt on the pelvis. I made a "Y" with a piece of cable and ran it to the seat frame of the seat itself, so it moves with the seat. Then I attached the belt to the loop in the "Y" cable. No pictures handy, sorry... But is has been done, and I am very happy with the results. - Jason
 
Crotch strap attachment idea

library


I used a bolt through the panel, under the seat. It is high enough to accept the removable Crow attachment, but does not interfere with the seat bottom. I'm sure it is not strong enough to meet all the G load requirements for certified aircraft, but I figured the load is in shear and should be much better than not having a crotch strap. The strap wraps around the front of the seat and must be pulled tight to avoid interference with the control stick. If it doesn't work as well as hoped, I can always remove it. I see no other way to install this?? I'd appreciate comments and suggestions. (Not sure about the attached pictures?? I'll see if they made it??)
 
Bill,

This is what I looked to do as well. Unfortunate I had the seats done already before I figured out that for this to work the front seats need a crotch strap slot like the rear seats.

Hooker sent me the crotch strap so perhaps one day I'll send the front seats back to DJ at Cleaveland tool and have her put in the slots.

Carl
 
Carl,
My plan is to wrap the crotch strap around the front of the seat rather than have it come through the seat cushion. I'm thinking this will avoid modifying the seat. The only issue might be the angle of the strap, at the seat belt release?? Also, I need to be careful to make sure the strap is tight enough to stay away from the stick.

Bill
 
Bill,

The stick is not really an issue.

I tried to just wrap it around the front of the seat - way too far forward to do much good.

The real question is to just go through the seat cushion or go through the seat bottom as well. I'm thinking the later will be what I end up with.

Dj did the mod to my rear seat cushions to add the crotch strap belt - they look like they were always made that way so I'm confident she can add the slot to the front seats.

Carl
 
How much room is there..

.. between the bottom of the seat panel and the stick mechanizms underneath? It would seem to me that two aluminum angles sandwiched around a seatbelt attach lug, riveted underneath the seat pan would work well.
You'd have to have a slot in the seat pan and also a slot in the seat, but it seems like the lug would be pretty strong this way, especially if you further strengthened the seat pan too. I'm just sure if there's enough room under there to do all that and still allow the seat to slide freely, without hitting any of the stick mechanisms.
 
One of my concerns was not modifying the seat structure. This is designed to provide adequate structure in a crash and did not want to change anything there. Perhaps Carl's thoughts about modifying the cushion and support webbing might be a good idea?? I'll have to see how it all goes together and consider possible cushion modifications at that time.
Bill
 
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