Wings last?

Meat of the question: Can I build the emp, fuse and finish before the wings?

Background to the question:
First time caller, long time listener. I've been dreaming of building an RV-8 since something like 2000/2001. In fact, I remember when the twin towers came down, I was dreaming over the idea of building one while on the Vans website.

Fast forward to 2015, I'm significantly older, I have a wife and son, and I STILL haven't taken the first step other than creating quite a few "purchase lists" and having read more than a dozen build logs. I'm done reading, I'm going to start building. I've already made my work benches, bought the shop tools, etc.

Now that I've got a family, I need to switch to an RV-10 for the extra space.

I intend to build the kit with cash, but I'll need to finance the engine and avionics. Due to the requirement to buy flying insurance (seriously expensive to have for a year or two without flying) as soon as the money is distributed, I want to get everything I can built before I order the engine and avionics.

Beyond that is that I need to use my annual bonuses to buy the kits, (wife's requirement,) and it seems that the most time is spent on the finishing kit, so to me the wings could easily be the last part I make since they aren't required except for a very minor amount of the fuselage.

I'm here for the experience of the hundreds who have completed this airplane, and I humbly request your guidance. Thank you!

Bret Cummings

And I should clarify that I would build the wings before ordering the engine and avionics, but after all but the FWF was complete as I obviously can't finish the FWF without an engine first.

Thanks!

Hi Bret, Van's usually matches the wing spars with the center section, and ships the center section with the wings. I would guess you could work with Van's on that issue. I don't really follow the logic though on saving wings for last. They don't take up much room, stored in a wing stand, and the kit isn't that expensive.....why not do it the normal way?

Congratulations on beginning the journey. It is a blast.

First of all, I am sure the welcome wagon (Mike) will be by shortly to welcome you, but in the mean time, welcome to VAF!

Secondly, in theory there is nothing wrong with doing it that way. In talking to Van's, unless the person I talked to was mistaken, the center sections and spars aren't match drilled anymore, so you may need to order the center sections (part of the wing kit) as extra to the fuse kit, then leave them out of the wing kit.

If you are doing this because of the yearly kit ordering timeframe, and thinking that the wing kit may not take a full year (dead time waiting for next bonus), while the fuse and/or finishing kit may take more than a year each (can order next kit before finishing current kit, so no dead time), then it makes sense. Otherwise, building in the order they recommend is how I would go.

You don't say your piloting experience. Currently insurance for pilots with less than 200-300 hours is pretty expensive. Is this an issue for you? Set aside some money to keep flying during the build.

Hi Bret! Like others said, the one logistical issue is that the center section (which comes in the wing kit) is literally the first part you need to have in-hand to start building the fuselage. As Jesse suggested if you can figure out a way to order just the two center section halves with the fuse and then delete them from the wing kit when you order that, you'll probably have a way to get around that problem. I'm guessing they aren't cheap though so you might be adding some big $$ to your fuse budget and subtracting from your wing budget. This would be especially true if you need to buy the spars at the same time too. Definitely want to check with Vans on that.

I will say this though: I thought of doing the exact same thing you're considering, for the exact same reasons, and even talked to some very nice folks who did it that way and encouraged me to do the same. At the last minute, though, I had a great conversation with one of the builder support guys at Van's and he talked me out of it. In hindsight, I'm glad he did. I'll try and paraphrase what the guy told me, and having been there now I can say I wholeheartedly agree.

Especially if you're a first-time builder (as I am and sounds like you are), Van's takes you on a sort of "journey" from start to finish in the order that they envision-- from emp to wings to fuse to finish. The plans start out holding your hand in the emp kit, and by the time you get to the fuse kit they really start cutting back on the finer details of things, assuming you know what you're doing. While doing the kits out of order is technically possible, I think you'd be signing up for more potential problems and making life harder on yourself.

My suggestion... call Van's and talk to their support folks. I've only had to call a couple times so far in our journey, but each time I've talked to them they were incredibly helpful in getting things sorted out and coming up with a game plan.

Whatever you end up doing, congrats on deciding to take the plunge and best of luck with your build!

One thing in favor of building the fuse first is that there are usually second hand wing and tail kits on the market. Build your fuse, then buy one of those kits to add to your fuselage, and you've really advanced your project (and saved a few bucks).

Stop by some time

Hey Brett -
I'm in Lafayette as well - feel free to stop by some time. Just got my fuselage kit, so there's plenty to see and I would be happy to have somebody to help shoot some rivets. Send me a PM if interested.

[URL=http://s296.photobucket.com/user/senecaprop/media/IMG_20150929_121703_993_zpsugc8jcjx.jpg.html][/URL]

FYI - the center section is over $1K. I don't remember the exact number but when Vans asked if they needed to add that to my fuse kit I had some significant pucker. Just don't think people are talking about a $5 item (if those exist in aviation).

Tim

I was thinking about this the other day. Just finished my rudder and assume I have another 5 months or so of empennage work and wasn't sure which to start next.

I do plan on doing the quickbuild fuselage and wings so there's some lead times to consider. I'm going to call Vans today!

Edit- I called Vans tech support. They suggested getting both the wing and the fuselage kit at the same time if doing quickbuild.

Wing center section

I can confirm that the center spar/carry through structure is not matched to the wing spar on an RV-10. I am getting ready to order a replacement QB fuselage shell and asked specifically if they wanted the center spar (that came with the wings I have) to send to the Philippines when they build the fuselage. They said no, there is no reason and they will buy back the center spar I have.

I think these run about $1300 from Van's, probably the most expensive single item in the fuselage itself.

What does it mean, "They are no longer matched drilled". Am I in trouble? I did a slow build wing set, and my quick build fuselage had a different center section. It was not the center section that came with the wing set. I sent the center section back to Vans that came with the slow build wing.

Question: Will my wings bolt to the quick build fuselage center section. GULP. I'M wiring now. All done with all of the building.. Wiring now

T.O.Craig said:

What does it mean, "They are no longer matched drilled". Am I in trouble? I did a slow build wing set, and my quick build fuselage had a different center section. It was not the center section that came with the wing set. I sent the center section back to Vans that came with the slow build wing.

Question: Will my wings bolt to the quick build fuselage center section. GULP. I'M wiring now. All done with all of the building.. Wiring now

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You're fine. The center section and wings on the 10 are a universal fit.

Kyle Boatright said:

You're fine. The center section and wings on the 10 are a universal fit.

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Correct. I don't recall when the change happened, but the first several years they were matched drilled and you needed the exact set that was matched drilled. Later they were able to get better precision on the hole location and matched parts were no longer a requirement.

rleffler said:

Correct. I don't recall when the change happened, but the first several years they were matched drilled and you needed the exact set that was matched drilled. Later they were able to get better precision on the hole location and matched parts were no longer a requirement.

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Hey Bob, I just finished your build log today, great read, and I took quite a few notes of things I should look out for, thanks for your diligence in your logging!

Jesse said:

If you are doing this because of the yearly kit ordering timeframe, and thinking that the wing kit may not take a full year (dead time waiting for next bonus), while the fuse and/or finishing kit may take more than a year each (can order next kit before finishing current kit, so no dead time), then it makes sense. Otherwise, building in the order they recommend is how I would go.

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This is EXACTLY the reason I was asking the question; you said it much better than I did, thank you!

mikeyj350 said:

I will say this though: I thought of doing the exact same thing you're considering, for the exact same reasons, and even talked to some very nice folks who did it that way and encouraged me to do the same. At the last minute, though, I had a great conversation with one of the builder support guys at Van's and he talked me out of it. In hindsight, I'm glad he did. I'll try and paraphrase what the guy told me, and having been there now I can say I wholeheartedly agree.

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Good enough for me, I'll stick to the regularly scheduled program; I've read enough build logs with people having to spend hours undoing something because they read the plans wrong, I don't need to add to the possibility of that. Thanks for your advice!

Bret

Interesting.....

I have a note with my spars stating one hole is reamed slightly oversize with a special bolt. I assume there was a minor "gouge" during manufacture so my parts definitely are matched. They are, however, some 6-7 years old........

Sterling Langrell at Van's replied yesterday to my query regarding match drilled wings/center spar on the 10. As noted earlier, the RV 3,4,6 center spars/wings were match drilled. No longer. All manufactured RV-10 cemter spars will match all RV-10 wings. Makes sense. Why manufacture a center spar to match a wing spar if the builder never ended up buying the complete kit. Plus CNC machining is so precise from part to part, day to day.

y2klightning said:

I intend to build the kit with cash, but I'll need to finance the engine and avionics. Due to the requirement to buy flying insurance (seriously expensive to have for a year or two without flying) as soon as the money is distributed, I want to get everything I can built before I order the engine and avionics.

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Just to clarify, most loan companies only want insurance that covers the build project - it generally doesnt need "In Motion" coverage. This means the insurance is considerably lower until the plane is ready to be moved "under its own power". I think I paid 25% of the full premium for insurance during the build. Once it was ready to fly, then the full premium went into effect.