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  #11  
Old 11-30-2016, 11:14 AM
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SMO SMO is offline
 
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Location: Salmon Arm, BC
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Thanks for posting the video Eric. I've done plenty of upright spins but have never experienced an inverted spin. The one instruction that is burnt into my brain cells is "Stop the ground". In your video it is obvious that the direction the ground is going by the windscreen has changed once you went inverted. Recognition of this should then trigger the requirement for a different action.

Reminds me to be cognizant of the direction of the ground each time I do a spin, especially if it doesn't terminate when I think it should.
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  #12  
Old 11-30-2016, 12:58 PM
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WillyEyeBall WillyEyeBall is offline
 
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Location: Daleville, AL
Posts: 318
Default spin recovery point

Unlike the super pros like Eric, I start 1 to 2 turn spin recoveries about 135 degrees from final heading in my RV-4. It usually ends up on heading or just slightly less. I can put in just a little aileron in the spin direction with the nose down to get it precise. If I over rotate, the judges will see it and down goes the score. Of course Eric and Ron will be looking for that as judges the next contest and ding me for it. Now about those snap rolls ?????????? I starting to think it's damaging my airplane.
Bill McLean
RV-4 slider
lower AL
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  #13  
Old 11-30-2016, 05:13 PM
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Saber25 Saber25 is offline
 
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Not sure about snap rolls in an RV4. I call 'em schnap rolls since they really don't look very snappy. Acquired a Pitts S1S for the more demanding acro and loving every minute of it. I'm taking the pressure off the four so she'll last as long as I.
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  #14  
Old 11-30-2016, 07:20 PM
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ssmdive ssmdive is offline
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by WillyEyeBall View Post
Now about those snap rolls ?????????? I starting to think it's damaging my airplane.
Bill McLean
RV-4 slider
lower AL
Bill, are you being serious about snaps hurting your plane?
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  #15  
Old 11-30-2016, 07:23 PM
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ssmdive ssmdive is offline
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Canadian_JOY View Post
I have little to no interest in aerobatics, but decided to read this thread to gain some knowledge of spin recovery.

What I found here is a little slice of heaven.

The aerobatic community has a reputation for being tight-knit, extremely competitive, and also the kind of people who help each other out, to make each other the best they can be. This discussion thread is absolute confirmation that the acts of support between community members continues on, reinforcing the positive reputation this group has within the larger aviation community.

It sure is nice to see folks helping each other. What a wonderful breath of fresh air!
Aw come on.... A little acro never hurt anyone. All the cool kids are doing it, you don't want them to think you are square! It only hurts the first time! It's not addictive.

As for being competitive... Yes! But also willing to share tips with anyone who wants to learn.

You should give competition a try!
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Last edited by ssmdive : 11-30-2016 at 07:26 PM.
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  #16  
Old 11-30-2016, 07:24 PM
precession precession is offline
 
Join Date: Apr 2006
Posts: 144
Default Great responses all around, thank you!

I've been trying to hold off replying just because the responses have been so good I didn't want to do anything to put the brakes on the thread.

Having done a lot of reading on this forum and elsewhere, I know the responders include some of the most respected, experienced and knowledgeable aerobatics pilots around, and it's hard to say what a pleasure it is to have a forum like this with guys like you being willing to share your years of expertise, so thank you all very much.

Basically, all I have been doing to date is applying full in-spin rudder and holding the stick full aft, ailerons neutral, until applying opposite rudder, then waiting some time for the rotation to slow somewhat before guessing it was time to apply forward elevator. So now I know that last part, in particular, was wrong, and there's a lot of other fine, and not so fine, tuning to be done as well. All the comments about the timing, pitch control, rudder/elevator sequencing, in- and out-spin controls, the amount of time in which one can expect the rotation to end (with proper technique), and even the pre-spin setup, were all extremely helpful and enlightening -- not to mention the warnings on crossovers and spin training.

There sure is a lot going on in mastering comp spins, isn't there? Not sure I really needed things to get more complicated, , but I guess it's better than remaining in the dark on the finer points.

I've had occasions where I did a 4 turn spin, then applied opposite rudder (only, initially) and became concerned when the rotation just seemed to continue for a while. On the other hand, I know Saber25 has a video where he does something like 11 spins in his -4 high in the Rockies. So I can only conclude the delay I experienced was due to poor technique, particularly with elevator application - which makes me feel even better about the ability of RVs to respond to anti-spin controls (while recognizing no two experimentals are the same and it wouldn't be a good idea for anyone without advanced spin training to try either a small or a large number of spins).

Last edited by precession : 11-30-2016 at 07:40 PM.
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  #17  
Old 11-30-2016, 08:37 PM
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Saber25 Saber25 is offline
 
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Hey Precession, glad to see you onboard the fun train.

The order of books I have covering the subject matter... Better Aerobatics by Alan Cassidy, Spins in the Pitts Special by Gene Beggs, Aerobatics Today by Bob O'dell and Fly for Fun by Bill Thomas are all excellent sources for what you'll want to know and get you started. Download a copy of the IAC rule book and it'll tell you what the judges are looking for. I discovered slapping a $100 bill on their forehead before the flight doesn't make a difference on the score awarded.

Cheers Hans
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"There's a big difference between a pilot and an aviator. One is a technician, the other is an artist in love with flight."
- Elrey B. Jeppesen,
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  #18  
Old 11-30-2016, 09:39 PM
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Just to add one more book to the group already mentioned - "Stall/Spin Awareness" by Rich Stowell is a very exhaustive study on the subject.
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  #19  
Old 11-30-2016, 10:01 PM
jrs14855 jrs14855 is offline
 
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Location: Lake Havasu City AZ
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Default Spins

I sure would like to see someone thoroughly test all the aerobatic RV models for both the Mueller/Beggs hands off recovery and the Finnegan controls centered recovery method.
Unless or until that happens consider the following on a spin recovery gone bad:
make sure you have the rudder all the way to the stop
Center the ailerons
Make sure the power is at idle
If the rotation does not slow almost immediately use full opposite rudder.
If you unintentionally accelerate a spin you can slow the rotation again by pulling the stick all the way back(upright spin)

The above is counter to some of my previous posts which were meant for those who are flying competition and are reasonably comfortable with spins.

Many of the top aerobatic pilots from the 70's and earlier didn't really know much about spins. There were Sammy Mason, Art Scholl, Rod Jocelyn and a few others who were spin experts, but they were few and far between. The others survived mostly by NEVER letting the airplane spin unintentionally. My way of doing this was to quickly check both wingtips, neutral rudder and gently push or pull to the nearest horizon. The only exception to this was when I was trying to master outside snaps on a 45 degree climbing line. Tumbles become a way of life in that situation. In 20 plus years of aerobatics I never did an inadvertent spin when I was sole manipulator of the controls. Lots of inadvertent spins with students. Also I have never had a spin recovery problem. One very early flat inverted went a turn or two past what I wanted but that was from a basic control error.
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  #20  
Old 11-30-2016, 10:06 PM
jrs14855 jrs14855 is offline
 
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Location: Lake Havasu City AZ
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Default Meuller/Beggs

For those who are not familiar with this:
throttle closed
let go of stick
looking straight ahead over the nose, full rudder opposite yaw.

Finnegan recovery method:
all controls to neutral
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