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3rd class medical/KOSH disappointment

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Pat Stewart

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I understand there will be no comment period announcement at KOSH as some thought would happen, in fact it sounds like the FAA is still planning to stall for a couple of years.

This will never happen if left to the FAA, (snip) We must all support the Congressional Bill and make sure this gets voted on early in 2015.
 
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I agree that the elimination of the traditional 3rd class medical should happen and will best be accomplished by legislative action, but disagree that the "money" from the medical community is in the way. As an practicing medical specialist who is also an AME, I can guarantee you that 3rd class medicals are almost always a money - losing proposition for AME's who have other clinical responsibilities. The time required to do a good job on the ( almost always medically unnecessary ) exam, deal with the data entry, process the medical data and cope with the necessary explanations/documentation required for the usually benign medical "conditions" on the AMCS system usually far outweighs any reasonable fee for the exam. I suspect that the FAA physicians and staff in Ok City ( who really are, in my humble opinion, good, well- intentioned and hard working people ) would tell you the same thing. Most of us, who do this for a passion for medicine, aviation and pilots, would far rather devote the energy to our commercial 2nd and 1st class career pilots who, I feel, should meet a high level of both medical and professional qualification, and who often do have medical issues that need extra attention. Inertia and angst regarding the rare "what if we missed" scenario are what impede FAA elimination of the 3rd class medical, not " medical money".
 
I'm not surprised that we're not hearing anything other than lip service from the FAA. I think their only real concern at this point is avoiding having anything forced upon them by Congress. It's a bureaucracy, and they are experts at the delaying game.
 
Sure, they will eliminate it. For less than (NOT less than or equal to) 180 HP fixed gear with no more than 2 aboard (if a 4-seater) and VFR only. No experimentals (you're taking enough risk already.) Oh, also only under age 40.

Just enough so they can claim they did something. You wait and see.
 
The FAA set a slow schedule back in May when they finally agreed to formally do the Rulemaking.

I see now they are even slipping from that slow schedule - July's report...

Popular Title: Private-Pilot Privileges without a Medical
RIN 2120-AK45
Stage: NPRM
Previous Stage:None
Abstract: This rulemaking would consider allowing certain operations to be conducted by individuals exercising private-pilot privileges without holding a current FAA airman medical certificate. The intended effect of this action is to provide relief from having to obtain a medical certificate for pilots engaged in low-risk flying, such as private pilots operating a small, general aviation aircraft.
Effects:
None

Prompting action: Secretarial/Head of Operating Administration Decision
Legal Deadline: None

Rulemaking Project Initiated: 02/04/2014
Docket Number:
Dates for NPRM:
Milestone
Originally Scheduled Date - New Projected Date - Actual Date
To OST 07/03/2014 07/14/2014
To OMB 08/04/2014 08/14/2014
OMB Clearance 11/04/2014 11/12/2014
Publication Date 11/10/2014 11/20/2014
End of Comment Period 01/09/2015 01/20/2015

Explanation for any delay: N/A

Federal Register Citation for NPRM: None


We have a long wait to see their actual proposal.
 
Bureaucrats never give up power. Even if it means their domain shrinks or even dies completely. All about the power and *their* jobs. Simple as that.
 
Low Pass said:
Bureaucrats never give up power. Even if it means their domain shrinks or even dies completely. All about the power and *their* jobs. Simple as that.
Click to expand...

This is the answer. How many people in OKC owe their jobs to managing third class medicals? Those people don't want to lose their jobs and their superiors don't want to give up a portion of their empire, because that might mean a pay cut or that their role is eliminated too.

Bureaucracies protect themselves...
 
My crazy thoughts are this, the FAA already allows folks to fly and with one passenger and the potential to kill one person plus the pilot with only a drivers license. But will not allow a pilot to crash with 3 passengers? Is it ok to crash with one and not 3? It seems to me the value of one life is worth much too.

It is ok to drive my car with a drivers license and crash with 5 people, and much more likely with all the crazy drivers on the road, but cannot fly with 3 passengers, much more safe.

I believe like others that once the gov. gets there grip they are less likely to loose their power over others.
Enough of the rant, happy flying

dave
 
Another View. I flew for years mostly in my Cherokee, became second nature to fly it, never had an accident or such. Then suddenly I am banned from flying the super simple Cherokee I am very experienced in and must learn (at an advanced age) to fly LSA aircraft. Somehow limiting power (because of weight etc) is supposed to be much safer. I think I would be far safer in my old Cherokee than in ANY LSA.
 
az_gila said:
The FAA set a slow schedule back in May when they finally agreed to formally do the Rulemaking.

I see now they are even slipping from that slow schedule - July's report...
*SNIP*
Click to expand...
That's actually a reasonable schedule for a Federal agency (disclaimer: I don't work for the Feds, but I have to work with them). Getting anything done takes at least 6 months and more likely a year. So getting a rule to OMB this year isn't all that bad. Simple rule of thumb: If it takes a person a week, it will take a company a month, and a government a year. Can be used linearly, i.e., 3 weeks = 3 months = 3 years, etc. :)

The proof will be (1) if they actually do it, since there is no court-ordered deadline and (2) if they listen to any comments and not just pull the famous "we disagree" in the Final Rule package.

TODR
 
first im getting my flame suit on here....

I'm dead set against this and here is why.

first, the medical section needs to be rewritten by doctors who fly.
the problem with this idea is some states have NO medical standards, including vision, for a renewal of a DL. here in florida, if you have below a certain number of tickets and no accidents, you can re-new by mail. we have cases every day of people that drive into buildings,people,bus waiting benches, ect because they get confused, cant see ect. they should not be on the road medically, but they still have a DL.

face is, if this passes, we WILL have of people flying that should not be in the air.

the better route would be a redo of the medical standards.

bob burns
 
You deserve to be flamed.
Pilots tend to be cautious and safe, I don't think there is a statistical base to support allegations that accidents will increase significantly.
Older pilots who might have failing health would be the most cautious and self limiting by their nature.
 
I must admit I rarely notice any buildings, people, bus waiting benches, etc when flying, so maybe us old geezers are better off flying than driving!:eek:
I had to look and see if you were in fact a Dr or not.
For your information, a LOT of the flying in the last 10 years are old farts like me, could never pass a medical, happily aviating in LSA qualifing aircraft. My airport is full of this type pilot! Just how much or statistics are not out there, I report my flying hours to NO ONE, so it is a secret how safe we really are, but studies so far have reflected that we are doing BETTER than the pilots that take medicals. I attribute at least part of this to the simple fact that self certification for safe flight simply works, and works extremely well.

n82rb said:
first im getting my flame suit on here....

I'm dead set against this and here is why.

first, the medical section needs to be rewritten by doctors who fly.
the problem with this idea is some states have NO medical standards, including vision, for a renewal of a DL. here in florida, if you have below a certain number of tickets and no accidents, you can re-new by mail. we have cases every day of people that drive into buildings,people,bus waiting benches, ect because they get confused, cant see ect. they should not be on the road medically, but they still have a DL.

face is, if this passes, we WILL have of people flying that should not be in the air.

the better route would be a redo of the medical standards.

bob burns
Click to expand...
 
This is what I put in my letter in an attempt to show the grossly unsopported requirement:

"How do you justify the medical requirement for a private pilot (not commercial) when the person driving my child and 80 others to school each day has no such requirement. This is a burden that simply isn't justified by the risk and there is countless precedence to support it."
 
lr172 said:
This is what I put in my letter in an attempt to show the grossly unsopported requirement:

"How do you justify the medical requirement for a private pilot (not commercial) when the person driving my child and 80 others to school each day has no such requirement. This is a burden that simply isn't justified by the risk and there is countless precedence to support it."
Click to expand...

Now you are getting into state requirements and not Federal ones...

AZ is quite strict, including a medical exam to a Federal standard...

1. Q: What is required to obtain certification as a school bus driver in the state of Arizona? What is the process involved?

A: The applicant must have or obtain a commercial driver?s license (CDL) with both passenger and school bus endorsements from the Motor Vehicle Division of the AZ Department of Transportation. The following must also be completed and submitted to the AZ Department of Public Safety, Student Transportation Unit by the applicant?s employer:

1. Fingerprint card;
2. $22 fingerprint-card processing fee (check on school?s revolving account, cashier?s check, or money order);
3. AZ DPS Application for School Bus Driver?s Certificate;
4. Physical examination (DOT Medical Examination);
5. Physical Performance Test (PPT);
6. DOT and Non-DOT drug screen results;
7. Proof of at least 20 hours of behind-the-wheel training and road test form;
8. Proof of first aid and CPR training (Copy of front and back of cards or a Driver Training Report);
9. Driver Training Report showing at least 14 hours of new driver classroom training (copy of graded new driver test answer sheet included with it).


Just looked up your state of Illinois... they require yearly physical exams...

http://www.cyberdriveillinois.com/departments/drivers/drivers_license/schoolbus.html

Not a good argument to make in your complaint letter...:rolleyes:
 
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Self Cert.

3 years ago I had chemotherapy because of a tumor. Chemo gives most people what the med profession calls "Chemo Brain". It causes some weird mental effects and when I was taking Chemo I de-certified myself to drive a car. I suspect any pilot would do the same, not wanting to kill himself or others. So as a group I think we'd all be as responsible as possible.

Sayin'

Jerry
 
n82rb said:
first im getting my flame suit on here....

I'm dead set against this and here is why.

first, the medical section needs to be rewritten by doctors who fly.
the problem with this idea is some states have NO medical standards, including vision, for a renewal of a DL. here in florida, if you have below a certain number of tickets and no accidents, you can re-new by mail. we have cases every day of people that drive into buildings,people,bus waiting benches, ect because they get confused, cant see ect. they should not be on the road medically, but they still have a DL.

face is, if this passes, we WILL have of people flying that should not be in the air.

the better route would be a redo of the medical standards.

bob burns
Click to expand...

Well I am told the statistics for LSA fatalities over the past 10 years are two. Both of which were conditions that would have not been identified in a third class medical. I am told this statistic was discussed at KOSH this year. Sounds like pilots don't just jump in airplanes with serious medical conditions. I still say this is about money and therefor will not be pushed through by the FAA. PUSH YOUR CONGRESSMAN
 
As I stated earlier, there ARE NO statistics on people like me, and there is a lot of us. I have a private pilot license issued 50 years ago, my last medical was about 21 years ago. I have a drivers license so I can fly any LSA, but the FAA will never know if I am flying or not. The FAA has no records of how many of us like myself are out there are flying, only when one dies in an airplane accident is there any record of his flying.
I think this is a shame, because if the true numbers were known, I think there would be some very supporting statistics for eliminating the medical.

Pat Stewart said:
Well I am told the statistics for LSA fatalities over the past 10 years are two. Both of which were conditions that would have not been identified in a third class medical. I am told this statistic was discussed at KOSH this year. Sounds like pilots don't just jump in airplanes with serious medical conditions. I still say this is about money and therefor will not be pushed through by the FAA. PUSH YOUR CONGRESSMAN
Click to expand...
 
Pat Stewart said:
Well I am told the statistics for LSA fatalities over the past 10 years are two. Both of which were conditions that would have not been identified in a third class medical. I am told this statistic was discussed at KOSH this year. Sounds like pilots don't just jump in airplanes with serious medical conditions. I still say this is about money and therefor will not be pushed through by the FAA. PUSH YOUR CONGRESSMAN
Click to expand...

The Soaring Society of America has an old report from the 70's or 80's on sailplane pilot medical deaths.

IIRC 40% of the fatalities also had current FAA medicals, which was about the same percentage of the soaring pilot population with medicals since a lot also flew powered aircraft.

Unfortunately it was pre-internet and I can't find a copy.
 
cfsanford said:
I agree that the elimination of the traditional 3rd class medical should happen and will best be accomplished by legislative action, but disagree that the "money" from the medical community is in the way. As an practicing medical specialist who is also an AME, I can guarantee you that 3rd class medicals are almost always a money - losing proposition for AME's who have other clinical responsibilities. The time required to do a good job on the ( almost always medically unnecessary ) exam, deal with the data entry, process the medical data and cope with the necessary explanations/documentation required for the usually benign medical "conditions" on the AMCS system usually far outweighs any reasonable fee for the exam. I suspect that the FAA physicians and staff in Ok City ( who really are, in my humble opinion, good, well- intentioned and hard working people ) would tell you the same thing. Most of us, who do this for a passion for medicine, aviation and pilots, would far rather devote the energy to our commercial 2nd and 1st class career pilots who, I feel, should meet a high level of both medical and professional qualification, and who often do have medical issues that need extra attention. Inertia and angst regarding the rare "what if we missed" scenario are what impede FAA elimination of the 3rd class medical, not " medical money".
Click to expand...

As for if it is profitable, the guy who does my medical has one office assistant and one admin, that's it and they only do pilot medicals no other patients are seen.
 
SHIPCHIEF said:
You deserve to be flamed.
Pilots tend to be cautious and safe, I don't think there is a statistical base to support allegations that accidents will increase significantly.
Older pilots who might have failing health would be the most cautious and self limiting by their nature.
Click to expand...

they do?

one of the leading causes of crashes is continued VFR into IFR. that is not a "cautious and safe" thought process right there.

so why are there all the "hey watch this!" accidents in the files.

I know 5 people that fly without medicals because they have conditions that would keep them from getting one. I know of a 121 PIC that was found to still be flying 121 at age 67, he falsified his records.

yes, the medical needs to be totally revamped,it is not in step with medical advances. but to have pilots show that they are fit to move a couple of thousands of pounds of metal over the heads of the general population, at speeds twice that of an automobile, is probably a good idea. but then I also think that it should be easier to get medically unsafe drivers off the roads also.

bob burns
 
FAA 3rd class medicals are about control only. Not adding any safety in my observation. I self certify every day I fly. Now, to add lunacy to the silliness, if the government was *actually* concerned about public safety, then why are we flooding the country with known infections of tuberculosis, polio, leprosy, and now... Ebola. All really very comical to think about the effort to protect the public from the *potentially* deadly little airplane pilots.
 
I do not think the FAA stall tactics are about money or control. It is all about resistance to change. The current process is a know quantity. Change brings an element of unknown and therefore perceived risk. This causes lack of decisiveness.

What the FAA needs is a true leader and not someone afraid of change even when everything in the world has changed three times over since the original regulations were written. Unfortunately bureaucracy breeds leaderless authority.
 
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