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Look what I found in the oil screen...

aero_tango

Active Member
Look what I found in the oil screen...

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I did an oil change today, and as usual, I removed the oil succion screen to inspect for any debris...this is what I found.
Not sure what it is, but it looks like remains from a ball bearing. These 2 large debris stick to a magnet.

Seeking unbiased opinions before I call my engine shop tomorrow. Any idea what this is? Obviously, the aircraft is grounded for now

Background:
O-540 B4B5, freshly overhauled (ONLY 60 hrs since OH)
Engine never missed a beat...runs great.
No large debris found at the first oil change (only two tiny slivers <.100’’ long)
I was running on mineral oil, and was planning to switch to regular oil today...
 
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Oof... sorry. I am by no means a lycoming expert, but that piece on the left does not look like a ball bearing to me. Looks like some sort of hold down for a tube (oil pick up?).

Do you have any other angles of the chunks?
 
Maybe magnetos bearing....

I looked at the o-540 part catalogue, and the only ball bearing I found is for the magnetos, PN 67542.
Looks like the ball retainer failed. See link below. It shows actual image of the magneto bearing. The debris found looks like the inner ball retainer.
I? ll contact my engine shop tomorrow, but for sure, the magnetos will come off for inspection.
https://pilotshq.com/lycoming-bearing-ball-67542-p-7762.html
Mike.
 
I am absolutely sure that neither of those pieces came from ball bearings.

I have no idea what pieces like that would be doing inside an engine.
 
Sure does look like a piece of the bearing cage from the picture posted. Luckily, the mags are easy to pull.
 
That piece on the left is not part of a ball bearing. Can't really tell about the piece on the right.

A bearing inner and outer races would both be concave providing a groove for the ball to run in. Do you have a pic of the inner surface of the part on the right?

The piece on the left appear to have been manufactured to have that bend after the flat. It looks like it was built to hold something round/tubular in place. That protuberance on the left looks like it inserted into something to keep it in place. Any chance this holds the oil pickup tube in place somewhere in the engine?
 
That looks like some kind of a tube clamp. It broke and fell apart to the sump. I wonder, is this an older engine with the steel oil pickup tube?
I'm in the process of replacing a cracked motor mount on my wife's RV-4. The engine is off, so I'm going to remove the oil pan to inspect for damage & clean the crud that always collects in the sump. It's about 1300 SMOH so it deserves a look.
I'm also going to remove the accessory case because a couple of my Akro friends have found sheared crank gear bolts...who knows how many 'secret' prop strikes occurred before we got this plane? :eek: Also, it's worth checking the oil pump for the latest configuration, and the condition of the gear train.
C'mon, it's only got one engine!
 
Agree. Sure looks like a piece of ball bearing cage to me. Mag inspection will tell the story. If mag is culprit, doubt any internal damage done. Something that big just falls to bottom of sump and may get thrown around a little on the way down and may cause a few nicks on internal case, but little chance of serious damage. Of course, no way to know without pulling sump, accessory case, and a cylinder or two. If mag bearing, I would fix mag and keep running with a few closely spaced oil changes to check for metal and also check accessory gears for damage with inspection camera.
 
Are you sure??

Looks like the spider that keeps the balls in place.

3170154-product-1551261359534-500x500.jpg

Ya know- it sure does. I'll admit stupidity here too- I wasn't really paying attention to the scale of the chunks but I bet you guys are right.

Now... to find all 8 balls and the rest of the pieces. Hopefully all still captive in the mag.
 
Definitely part of a ball race. Now before you go tearing down the engine you might find that these parts may have been lying in some part of the sump or accessory housing trapped for some time, well before the rebuilt overhaul. During overhaul and cleaning the parts have dislodged to the point that they have now worked their way to the pick up screen. Obviously check everything you can but if the engine is running to within normal specs then I'd continue to run it assuming your overhaul fascility is in agree ance wth that. Hope you get to the bottom of it.
 
I was wondering how chunks of metal could get from the accessory case into the sump, but there is a large channel at the bottom of the accessory case:

fuauVD.jpg
 
debris in suction screen

I have seen a lot of "stuff" in suction screens through the years. I have always sent either a photo our the items itself to Lycoming, they can tell us for sure what it is. Many never remove the suction screen, big mistake.

Gary Brown
DAR - Independence, Oregon
 
https://photos.google.com/photo/AF1QipPBQAhL145VYA2JU-r2614Y5v1qUjUT10hezU4

These little pieces are ~0.350?. I think they are likely from the ball bearing of the Bendix magnetos. They are way too small to be some sort of retaininer clamp, as someone suggested.
I?m talking to the engine shop this morning, and lll pull the mags tonight. More to come.
Thanks for all you thoughts on this.

Mike

Link produced this error for me:

404. That?s an error.

The requested URL was not found on this server. That?s all we know.
 
Ya know- it sure does. I'll admit stupidity here too- I wasn't really paying attention to the scale of the chunks but I bet you guys are right.

Now... to find all 8 balls and the rest of the pieces. Hopefully all still captive in the mag.

Plus one. No sense of scale on the original picture. These things are really tiny.

Hope you can find the rest of the bits.
 
Wow

You guys have some imagination :D

I don't see how it looks anything like a bearing part, race or otherwise. Of course it could have been mangled beyond recognition. Very interested to know what it turns out to be.
 
Not a race

You guys have some imagination :D

I don't see how it looks anything like a bearing part, race or otherwise. Of course it could have been mangled beyond recognition. Very interested to know what it turns out to be.

Go back and look carefully at the picture in post #9 then compare it to the original poster?s picture. The piece found by the OP appears to be a part of the ball retainer cage, a section that cradles 1 ball. These are sometimes riveted together.

Skylor
 
Ok so all this stuff that Mike Busch says about a new engine being more prone to failure than an older engine could be true!

If your mag is missing a bearing I can't see your engine running that well. Was this the first oil change since overhaul? If the bendix mags are the only part with a ball bearing then pull the mags and check. If the mags are good then your engine shop let some pretty horrendous FOD in. This is a strange one.

What I would do is make every effort to identify that part. Send it to a bendix rep, or lyc rep, whatever it takes. Then you can come up with a plan.

On a real overhaul the first thing they do is tear everything completely apart, thoroughly clean it and inspect. Can't imagine how that would get by. Please let us know what you find out.
 
Mag Bearing failure confirmed...

Here is some update...
After talking to my engine shop, it was decided to remove the mag and pull the mag gear out:

Right Mag gear: OK

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Left Mag gear: Half of the bearing is gone...down in the sump

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This is what I fished out of the sump (with a magnet...)...still missing quite a few bits/pieces, specifically the outer race:
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Damage to the Mag gear
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Lycoming part list:
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Sent all the photos to my engine shop, waiting for their response...and next course of action
 
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I'm glad you found the problem. It sounds to me like you should pull the sump; I don't see any other way to get all the debris out of it.
 
For some reason I can't see these pics, but I am seriously interested as I have Bendix mags on my IO540.

-Marc

Here is some update...
After talking to my engine shop, it was decided to remove the mag and pull the mag gear out:

Right Mag gear: OK

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Left Mag gear: Half of the bearing is gone...down in the sump

eebb12cc48adc2a386e4be874a0ae1ea-full.jpg


This is what I fished out of the sump (with a magnet...)...still missing quite a few bits/pieces, specifically the outer race:
5ad4f8473cfa6a965897427e8bcf3496-full.jpg


Damage to the Mag gear:
bbdf71e0d86ad013d1c32fc0af07dd04-full.jpg


Lycoming part list....
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Sent all the photos to my engine shop, waiting for their response...and next course of action
 
Extra parts

Seen this before. Some of the 540?s have a bearing in the accy case that supports the fwd end of the mag drive. The pieces in the photo look like parts of that bearing. This is what the suction screen is for. It protects the oil pump from big pieces that could shut it down.

Don Broussard
RV9 Rebuild in Progress
57 Pacer
A&P- IA - ATP
 
As far as getting the all the pieces with a magnet. Besides going down the oil filler tube, can you pass a magnet through the oil screen area? Like a previous post mentioned.... to be SURE all pieces are out, pulling the sump is likely the only way to go.
 
can you pass a magnet through the oil screen area?
The problem with that is that the bottom of the sump - mine, anyway, has raised "fences" all around the screen hole. I was very reluctant to try and work some kind of a magnet back in there lest I lose the magnet.
 
Judging by how chewed up the mag gear teeth are, I'd assume the mating gear in the accessory case looks equally bad. So, at this point, really your only option is to pull the engine so that you can pull the accessory housing off to inspect ALL the gears back there, especially the crank gear which has the most load on it. And of course pull the oil sump too.
 
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These are the biggies IMHO------appears this is the crankcase, not accessory case.

Hope I am wrong.........
 
The big pieces don't worry me, they fall down and stay there. The damage to the gears sent small pieces out into the system and god knows where they went. You're likely looking at a tear down to mic and inspect. Governor requires an overhaul if metal contaminated. Need the prop cleaned out. Oil cooler too. If nothing else looks off, bearings and a build up and you're only down a few grand. Depends on engine hours and your budget at that point.

I can heartily recommend JB aircraft in Sebring. They handled a similar issue of mine when a lifter looked beat up when inspected. One lifter beat up a little and every single bearing had metal flakes in it as did the Governor screen and oil cooler. Caught it really early thank God, so crank and rods still mic'd new. From engine pulled to back flying in a week. JB doesn't play around.

Here is hoping it's not a big deal.
 
?Piece?of mind...

I fix the link. Images should be viewable now. See post #21

Mike,
As an A&P I agree with the parts analysis and tear down recommendations.
You sure don’t want it to get quiet over the Rockies or big lake or worse, loaded up on takeoff with no options.
My 50 year IA Dad recommended a minimum of borescope, Oil pan removal and mag replacement, but tear down best option. I will add, mag disposal and retrofit with electronic ignition. You might combine your 2 mags to make one good one and go with a single EI.

I gained efficiency and HP on my HR2’s IO540 C4B5 and way fewer moving parts. :)
V/R
Smokey
 
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Engine is going back to the engine shop...

The manager called me today and want me to send the engine back.
All repair will be covered under warranty.
They also offered me to send a mechanic to remove the engine from the plane. Nice gesture, but I said that I prefer taking care of the removal of the engine. They agreed. They said to call them when it?s off the plane, and they will send someone to pick it up....This is certainly good support from them
 
Good you have a path to resolution!!

The manager called me today and want me to send the engine back.
All repair will be covered under warranty.
They also offered me to send a mechanic to remove the engine from the plane. Nice gesture, but I said that I prefer taking care of the removal of the engine. They agreed. They said to call them when it?s off the plane, and they will send someone to pick it up....This is certainly good support from them

Good to hear they stand behind their work, certainly sounds like the right thing to do.
 
PARTS IN OIL SCREEN

PULL MAGS SEE IF BEARINGS STILL THERE? SEND SOME OF THE OIL THAT WAS IN THE ENGINE OUT FOR SOAP SAMPLE, SEE IF THERE WAS ANY METAL IN IT, OR OTHER STUFF? THINK ABOUT PULLING SUMP, ACCESSORY CASE, IN SPECT OIL PUMP, SEE IF ANYTHING IN SUMP. ENGINE MAY NEED COMPLETE TEAR DOWN, WHAT KIND OF WARRANTY DID ENGIN SHOP GIVE YOU, ENGINE SHOP MAY HAVE LEFT PARTS IN SUMP? WOULD NOT BE FIRST TIME, GOOD LUCK.
 
Got to love Mag Bearings-not

This was my mag Drive on an IO-540 that was 425hrs SMOH !

Bearing was spinning on shaft,

Dual SDS CPI for me....

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Bearing was spinning on shaft

The bearing on the NON-failed mag on mine seem to be press-fit.
The inner race of the failed one is not (slide fit) and I can see some mark similar to yours on the shaft.

Mike
 
Why a ball bearing there?

Crazy how many variations Lycoming used over the years... the IO-360-A3B6D (Bendix D3000 Dual-Mag) also has a stub shaft to support the magneto gear like this IO-540, but with the 360-D engine, the shaft is simply suspended in a plain bore in the crankcase instead of a ball bearing. The bore is pressure-lubricated with an oil hole connected to the LH oil gallery, so if you remove the Dual-Mag to replace with crank trigger ignition, you have to plug that hole or you'll have low oil pressure.
 
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