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Resale value of RV-12 if PBOR2 gets passed?

G

gogo2390

I'm New Here
I have a sport pilot license and have been looking at buying an LSA. The RV-12 is pretty much my go-to choice.

From what I've read, most people that buy LSA's aren't people that only have a sport pilot license....They tend to be old guys with an existing license (Private Pilot or above) that want to fly but won't pass their medical.

Why would anyone buy an LSA once the third class medical reform gets passed (yes, it's been "any day now" for years)?

With this in mind, is it right to assume that RV-12s (or any other LSA) will be worthless when people can buy an RV-7 for the same price, and not have to deal with Rotax's or the weight/power/speed restrictions....this would also give those people the option to buy a much cheaper plane like a Cessna 150 for $20k.
 
Popcorn time, but here's a case for the RV-12:

- True 2 adults, plus baggage plus full fuel
- 120 kts at 5 gal/hr
- Great flying airplane - very much an RV
- Range is "OK" - 350nm+ with a strong fuel reserve
- State of the art avionics and autopilot (in my case dual screen G3X Touch)
- Good speed - faster than a 172
- New airframe
- Rotax is smooth-running with 2000TBO - not sure it's so bad to deal with (I would compare SB to similar ones on Lycomings but carb floats are cheaper than crankshafts)

Sure there is a case to be made for faster RV's, etc but not a bad option.
 
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Ever scrunched two big guys into a 150? There are a lot of reasons you can buy them cheap. I'd pay extra for an RV-12.

If PBOR2 or some other expanded FAA-medical-free rule change goes through, I think you'll see the price of some of the LSA qualified aircraft drop some. Maybe a lot. I personally wouldn't pay a premium right now, for example, for an Ercoupe or a BC-12 in less than pristine condition.

I don't know that the value of an RV-12 will drop much, though. It's a comparatively new or brand new airplane, all current technology, good engine, GA prop and all. It will still have many advantages over an awful lot of alternatives. For example it'll still cruise faster than most C-172s with the same effective number of seats on half the fuel burn.

Yeah, it's true that they cost as much as an RV-7, but given the supply & demand... I don't know that it will have that big of an impact. In fact, since the pool of potential buyers for faster RVs will be greatly expanded I don't see any problem at least in the shorter term (5-10 years).

Of course I could be totally wrong. It happens all the time.
 
I hate to be pessimistic, but it doesn't seem likely the FAA will roll
over on 3rd class medical reform. Have you been to your AME lately?
Sleep apnea is near the top of the concern list. Convinced we are
dozing off in flight :eek:
 
gogo2390 said:
...once the third class medical reform gets passed...
Click to expand...

AHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA! Oh, stop it, you're killing me! :)

Never going to happen. AMEs don't want to give up the money, FAA doesn't want to give up the control, Congress couldn't give two s**ts about private pilots, and the alphabet organizations just keep pimping for donations (except ALPA, who actually came out against reform).

But don't worry...Inhofe is behind it all the way, he assures you! Be sure to contribute to his campaign, doncha know...

LOL!
 
mturnerb said:
Popcorn time, but here's a case for the RV-12:

- True 2 adults, plus baggage plus full fuel
- 120 kts at 5 gal/hr
- Great flying airplane - very much an RV
- Range is "OK" - 350nm+ with a strong fuel reserve
- State of the art avionics and autopilot (in my case dual screen G3X Touch)
- Good speed - faster than a 172
- New airframe
- Rotax is smooth-running with 2000TBO - not sure it's so bad to deal with (I would compare SB to similar ones on Lycomings but carb floats are cheaper than crankshafts)

Sure there is a case to be made for faster RV's, etc but not a bad option.
Click to expand...

I could get my RV7 to do 120kts at 5 gal/hr too.
Or 165kts @ 9 gal/hr.:D
Just sayin.
All RVs are great!

I would also like to get rid of the AMEs. A few years ago when I went into the exam room, I could smell cigarettes. The AME had a burner going.
 
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RV7A Flyer said:
AHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA! Oh, stop it, you're killing me! :)
Click to expand...


Note my skepticism lol. The thread is titled "..if it gets passed". I'm completely aware of the BS that has been going on with this.

gogo2390 said:
Why would anyone buy an LSA once the third class medical reform gets passed (yes, it's been "any day now" for years)?
Click to expand...

Just seeing what other people think about this "hypothetical" scenario.

I simply don't want to buy a plane and lose 20 grand if pilots get the option to fly/buy a plane that isn't crippled by what the FAA decided was an LSA.
 
roadrunner20 said:
I could get my RV7 to do 120kts at 5 gal/hr too.
Or 165kts @ 9 gal/hr.:D
Just sayin.
All RVs are great!

I would also like to get rid of the AMEs. A few years ago when I went into the exam room, I could smell cigarettes. The AME had a burner going.
Click to expand...

Agree - after a short time back to flying after a long break, I already want faster RV with longer legs than my RV-12. But as we have agreed, the -12 is a respectable, real airplane all by itself. After 300+ hours in (mostly) Cherokees and Beechcraft trainers, for me the difference is dramatic.

To address the OP's question, and as others have said, the -12 stands on its own as a good airplane. The real market problem right now is not lack of pilots with medicals, it's a general decline in the number of new pilots who are interested in GA (or can afford it). But there seems to be a strong market at the high end (i.e. Cirrus) and a somewhat steady market for "affordable" entry-level (LSA and experimental mostly) simpler airplanes, as well as RVs in general. Hard to see how adding more pilots to the general buyer pool (medical reform) will hurt the value of newer LSAs like the -12. The biggest effect might be driving up the price of airplanes like other RV's and older Cessnas, etc. Hopefully we'll get the chance to find out.
 
From what I've read, most people that buy LSA's aren't people that only have a sport pilot license....They tend to be old guys with an existing license (Private Pilot or above) that want to fly but won't pass their medical.
Click to expand...
This true to some extent. But there are a few other reasons this occurs. The ELSA version is one of the easiest kits on the market to build. Successful completion of a 12 kit is much faster and easier than a the other RV models. A person needs to look at the mission that he wants to fly with his aircraft. Most of the pilots you stated above never go over a 100nm from home and usually fly by themselves. They want the satisfaction of building to completion with their own hands a working flying airplane. They have the time and the money to complete and fly their 12. Younger guys have families and are working and no time to build.

Why would anyone buy an LSA once the third class medical reform gets passed (yes, it's been "any day now" for years
Click to expand...
For the reasons stated above and your reason. Wait around for years for the new rule or move forward and fly now, you make the call. Different strokes for different folks. Why do we have 10 different automobile manufacturers?

With this in mind, is it right to assume that RV-12s (or any other LSA) will be worthless when people can buy an RV-7 for the same price, and not have to deal with Rotax's or the weight/power/speed restrictions....this would also give those people the option to buy a much cheaper plane like a Cessna 150 for $20k.
Click to expand...
No they won't be worthless. They will be the same price they are now. The used ones may not sell as fast as they do now but they will sell. It comes down to mission, operating cost, marketing, etc. Your last sentence is all about money. If you have plenty then buy a new one, if you don't then buy a used one. Factory built are getting very, very, very old. Parts are getting more and more Expensive and harder to find. They are much harder to work on to. Also if it doesn't have it you are looking at between $6000 to $8000 and up for the avionics needed for 2020. But the basic math will always favor the cheaper C150 cause you can fly your brains out before you reach $75,000 ELSA or $120,000 for SLSA.:D In the end it comes down the what you the individual wants.
 
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I am getting to where I simply don't want an aircraft that I can't legally maintain. It's getting hard to get an A&P in some cases, and one is always subject to their whims. I'm far too old to get my A&P.
That means ELSA and a 16 hour course or SLSA and the 120 hour course. I've done both. If one can't find time for the LSMR-A course (120 hours) convert your SLSA to ELSA and do the weekend course.
 
jnmeade said:
I am getting to where I simply don't want an aircraft that I can't legally maintain. It's getting hard to get an A&P in some cases, and one is always subject to their whims. I'm far too old to get my A&P.
That means ELSA and a 16 hour course or SLSA and the 120 hour course. I've done both. If one can't find time for the LSMR-A course (120 hours) convert your SLSA to ELSA and do the weekend course.
Click to expand...

You can legally maintain any experimental amateur-built aircraft. The only thing you can't do is the condition inspection if you didn't build the aircraft.
 
If we look at the light sport market as a whole, I believe there has been a decline due to the anticipation for the medical reform. Specifically, the higher priced LSA's. Vans RV's, regardless of model, are simply taking over the general aviation market and with the -12 being the slowest model, there is a niche. I think Van's will feel a little impact, but not like the other LSA companies.

Without a doubt, I believe the aircraft market will definitely be impacted if the reform ever comes through.
 
Reform values ???

Reform....Someday,Maybe. The accident rate this year was/is miserable.Reform will never happen if we can't stay out of the news. Were a small group with an agenda,yes we need to throw money at our issue as well as write letters make phone calls. Other groups do it with great success,LSA was a big step,but just that a step,keep the pressure on.The 12 is a great ship.As to value,everything depreciates with time&use.What ever you fly you'll always want something faster ask a rocket pilot "if only I had a turbine"is what they say.Just getting into the air is a "Good Day" for me.Nothing out there gives Value for the money like an RV.Life is too short,Fly when ever you can.IMHO
RHill
 
RV-12 Fuel economy - -

Last Sunday flew to two fly-ins. I use only premium auto fuel ( currently $3.09/gallon ). Cost per mile .1236 cents. Total miles 353. 14 gallons of premium auto fuel = $43 for entire trip. I normally cruise at 108 kts ( 125 MPH ). Hard to do better per mile with any plane, and still moving at a decent speed. If you fly often, and include hangar and insurance, still the lowest priced flying I can do I feel. I know the following statement will get your attention, but in small town Iowa, most hangars rent for UNDER $100/month. No regrets for building the RV-12.
 
I thought long and hard about this before starting my RV-12 build. A choice between a new (everything) aircraft or an older airframe/panel along with cheaper operating costs, sealed the deal for me. I have many friends that just can't afford to fly their aircraft much.

My panel will beat anything in a commercial aircraft and many an experimental for much less cost. The 12 makes a good cost effective training aircraft as well as a cross country machine; especially when compared to the Cessna/Piper standards.

Bob
 
Mel said:
You can legally maintain any experimental amateur-built aircraft. The only thing you can't do is the condition inspection if you didn't build the aircraft.
Click to expand...

You are of course correct about E-AB. The persuasive point to me for LS is that one can do the condition inspection on ELSA and SLSA without an A&P.
 
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jnmeade said:
You are of course correct about E-AB. The persuasive point to me for LS is that one can do the condition inspection on ELSA and SLSA without an A&P.
Click to expand...

ELSA-Experimental built Light Sport Aircraft with a weekend course by EAA you can maintain and sign off your own annual(condition inspection) with a Repairman License you can get from the FAA with the graduation certificate from the EAA course tied to your serial number of your ELSA.

SLSA- factory built light sport aircraft. Can only be maintained and the annual signed off by a A&P. Furthermore a person who has completed a 120 hour Repairman course can also maintain and sign off an annual on a SLSA.

Mel how'd I do.:)
 
Dan- Must be the same one I went to

roadrunner20 said:
I could get my RV7 to do 120kts at 5 gal/hr too.
Or 165kts @ 9 gal/hr.:D
Just sayin.
All RVs are great!

I would also like to get rid of the AMEs. A few years ago when I went into the exam room, I could smell cigarettes. The AME had a burner going.
Click to expand...

On Ulmerton??
 
Jetguy said:
ELSA-Experimental built Light Sport Aircraft with a weekend course by EAA you can maintain and sign off your own annual(condition inspection) with a Repairman License you can get from the FAA with the graduation certificate from the EAA course tied to your serial number of your ELSA.
SLSA- factory built light sport aircraft. Can only be maintained and the annual signed off by a A&P. Furthermore a person who has completed a 120 hour Repairman course can also maintain and sign off an annual on a SLSA.
Mel how'd I do.:)
Click to expand...

Good with one exception. One can maintain an ELSA without the repairman certificate. The certificate, or an A&P, is required to sign off the condition inspection.
 
I gave this a lot of thought last year before buying my RV12 kit. The RV 12 is a great airplane and fun to fly. Compared to an RV7 or RV8 with the same panel you find in an ELSA they are already significantly cheaper to build and buy.

I believe that the third class medical reform will pass and also believe there will be a percentage of RV 12 pilots that will jump back into the other RV models. I also believe there are thousands of what had been previous spam can pilots who do not fly at all because of a medical issue. They will jump back into the air and will love the LSA market vs the old worn out certified market and it's maintenance cost.

The LSA market will still have a strong customer base and the RV12 will be at the top.

My 2 cents
 
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Senator Inhofe press release from yesterday says they now have 61 sponsors so maybe we will see some action on this.
 
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