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Rivet squeeze vs bucking bar and air hammer

dareha

Member
Getting ready to pull the trigger on building a RV9 and was wondering the debate on which is the best way to rivet. If all things are the same which produces the best rivit?
Thank you,
Darrell
 
Getting ready to pull the trigger on building a RV9 and was wondering the debate on which is the best way to rivet. If all things are the same which produces the best rivit?
Thank you,
Darrell

A new guy will produce better rivets with a squeezer.

An experienced hand will produce great rivets with a gun and bucking bar.

You cannot build one of these airplanes (other than an RV-12) without extensive use of a rivet gun and bucking bar. There are thousands of rivets that are not accessible with a squeezer.
 
Getting ready to pull the trigger on building a RV9 and was wondering the debate on which is the best way to rivet. If all things are the same which produces the best rivit?
Thank you,
Darrell

It's a moot point because as Kyle has pointed out you need both devices to build an RV9. So what other people think does not matter because you are going to find out for yourself. ;)

However, given access, the best and most consistent rivets will come from a pneumatic squeezer. I highly recommend a pneumatic squeezer, particularly if you are building a slow-build kit.
 
You cannot tell the difference between a bucked rivet and one set with a squeezer if done properly. Both methods can make a mess if you don't practice.
 
Methods

Darrell
First welcome and thank you for your service.
As others have said, if you have the funds, a pneumatic will serve you well. It's my first choice.
However, good gun/bar skills are invaluable. Building a 7a, there are lots of rivets that have to be set with gun and bar.
 
Darrell,

I started out with a Tatco hand squeezer and rivet gun and some bucking bars. I could do most rivets with those tools. For me I'm not strong enough to do a AD4 rivet with the Tatco squeezer. Some times I wish I had an Avery hand squeezer with longer handles for more leverage. Still I wouldn't give up the Tatco since I can squeeze AD3 rivets with one hand and still have great control. After a while I realized I wanted a pneumatic squeezer for the AD4 rivets primarily but it is useful for AD3 rivets as well. The control of these squeezers isn't as good as the hand squeezer and it's much heavier. So there are lots of tradeoffs with tool selection. You will want a hand squeezer of some sort and the rivet gun. There are a multitude of different rivet setting situations building these planes and there are better and worse tools for each rivet. While it is technically possible to do it all with a gun and bucking bar there is quite a bit of skill required to use the gun. I've bucked a lot of rivets during my build up to this point and I'm still not an expert by any means. Just this past weekend I was working on my mid fuselage bottom skin. In one section I had to use my left hand to run the gun and hold the bucking bar with my right (and I'm right handed). You too will get better with the gun over time but it takes a lot of rivets to become an expert who can do any rivet with a gun.
 
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Pro tip: get tungsten bucking bars, even though they seem 2x the price of gold. Their high density and corresponding small size make riveting with a gun a much more pleasurable productive experience. (just make a hard swallow and click "buy" from your favorite vendor). You probably only need 2, a regular bar with one end cut at an angle, and "C" shaped one (bar with a slot milled in it)

Have fun. Once you get used to it, the gun is the most versatile tool.
 
Having built a 9 with no experience riveting, my suggestion is like Vans says, practice until you are confident, use the supplied rivet guides and practice some more. Then if and when you get into a spot that you are unsure of, get or fashion a bucking bar that fits the job. I even cut off part of a claw hammer for an exact fit tool. worked great. that's why they call it experimental?
 
Your post title scared me...

It's already been said that you need both to do the airplane. What stands out for me is your choice of the term "air hammer". Please don't go to a big box place or auto shop and buy an air hammer because they're cheap. They are different from rivet guns in that they are either on or off. Rivet guns should have a nice trigger where you can ease the trigger in and set the rivet more gradually.

My apologies if it was just a wording issue...

My $.02.
 
Best $170 I ever spent

Getting ready to pull the trigger on building a RV9 and was wondering the debate on which is the best way to rivet. If all things are the same which produces the best rivit?
Thank you,
Darrell

I strongly recommend you take a Fundamentals Class from Synergy - 3 hours up I-5 from you in Eugene.

http://synergyair.com/builder-classes/fundamentals/

You will get an opportunity to use a hand squeezer, a pneumatic squeezer and a rivet gun. You also get 8 hours of great instruction from a very knowledgeable A&P and RV builder, free lunch and a $50 off certificate from Van's.

For me, the class was much more valuable than the classes taught by EAA and it was half the price.

FYI, I've been back to Synergy to build my RV-10 empennage/tailcone, fuselage and will be back to build wings in January. So yes, I highly recommend them.
 
Not much to add to what's been said. You will need both methods to build the 9. Also, be sure to practice back riveting. This method is preferred for doing skins.

Cheers,
 
Yup...

You'll need both a rivet gun/bucking bar and squeezer. I went in head first and bypassed the classes. I bought the toolbox and wing practice kits to practice on. I use hand tools all the time so it was a quick learning curve for me. I fix everything that breaks around my house and cars. Everyone is different so you'll just have to judge your own skills and decide if you want to take a practice class.

With that said, I know the value of the right tool. I have the pneumatic squeezer with adjustable set, and quick change pins. Worth every penny I paid for it. I also have tungsten bars. Love them as well. Because of their density, rivets require less hits to set. Some rivets are spots that the tungsten can't reach and so other bucking bars are needed to for the odd placed rivet.

Good luck on your journey.
 
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Another Squeezer

And to add to the thread, in addition to the Tatco and Avery manual squeezers, there is also the "Main Squeeze" from Cleaveland Aircraft Tool Company. Again, it costs more than the others, but you should also be aware that many RV builders like it's light weight and it's non-linear squeezing response.
 
I have a Tatco hand squeezer and a Tatco pneumatic squeezer, and I will squeeze whenever I can, but won't hesitate to shoot the rivets if the squeezer can't be positioned to make a straight squeeze easily. You need to stay proficient at handling a rivet gun. That being said, if a squeezer will reach (and a long reach yoke, or flanged yoke will reach a lot more), I would use the squeezer because of the consistent quality, over the gun every time.
 
One point about pneumatic squeeze vs manual that has not been brought up.

I have a manual Tatco and obviously a gun and selection of bucking bars of both purchased and handmade variety.

I felt that the selection of a high number of different geometry jaws was a better path than going for pneumatic power. (IE Short, Deep, Longeron, No-hole ). From what I have seen of other builders pneumatics, the Tatco with multiple jaws was more versatile because the jaws and mechanism were smaller and easier to position in tight spots.

I agree with the poster that talked about squeezing #4 rivets with the Tatco. It takes a good grip. It was pretty much impossible with the deep reach jaw because of jaw flex. However, the short jaws were fine. I did make a couple of handle extensions out of a pair of long hardware bolts. They made #4 rivets easy.
 
My first build was an RV6 and I had a 3x rivet gun, a few bucking bars, a C frame, a hand squeezer and a polished piece of flat steel for back riveting.
I still use these however I do occasionally use a tungsten bucking bar and I switched to a 2x rivet gun.
If you are doing a slow build kit, you will need the 3x rivet gun for some of the larger rivets, but the 2x gun is much easier to use on the bulk of the smaller rivets all over the airframe. (Riveting the number 6 rivets on a spar are something different and require an even bigger rivet gun or a c-frame and about a 2# hammer to set.)
If you are doing a QB kit, you probably won't need the 3x gun at all. My 2x gun has a swivel regulator at the base of the gun that I have marked for the two size rivets used on RVs.
I also have several pneumatic riveters and yokes but these are strictly luxury items. If you can afford them or plan to keep building, they are definitely worth it.
If possible, have someone experienced help you get started riveting. Some folks catch on right away but some folks take longer to get consistent. Only you can decide when you are ready to bang on your real plane parts.
Good luck.
 
And to add to the thread, in addition to the Tatco and Avery manual squeezers, there is also the "Main Squeeze" from Cleaveland Aircraft Tool Company. Again, it costs more than the others, but you should also be aware that many RV builders like it's light weight and it's non-linear squeezing response.

Cleaveland's Main Squeeze was one of the best tool decisions I made throughout my build. It's SO much easier to use than the Tatco that I used in the Sportair Workshop. Costly, yes .... but worth every penny.
 
A C frame is also a great tool and certainly for a slow build is required. It simplifies riveting because you are guaranteed that the top and bottom dies are aligned with each other. Go to the EAA Hints for Homebuilders videos and watch the Synergy guy demonstrate back riveting - fool proof. The dies it uses are the same as a squeezer.

People baulk at the thought of buying $4k worth of tools, but by the end of the project you will own them - it is only a question of how much pain you went through and how much stuff you damaged by taking short cuts before you bit the bullet. And if you bought them bit by bit, how much extra shipping you paid (in my case it must have been in the $100s :eek:). Be smarter than me and buy good tools up front. YOu can always sell them when you are done if you buy the good stuff.
 
I strongly recommend you take a Fundamentals Class from Synergy - 3 hours up I-5 from you in Eugene.

http://synergyair.com/builder-classes/fundamentals/

You will get an opportunity to use a hand squeezer, a pneumatic squeezer and a rivet gun. You also get 8 hours of great instruction from a very knowledgeable A&P and RV builder, free lunch and a $50 off certificate from Van's.

For me, the class was much more valuable than the classes taught by EAA and it was half the price.

FYI, I've been back to Synergy to build my RV-10 empennage/tailcone, fuselage and will be back to build wings in January. So yes, I highly recommend them.
I second the recommendation to take the Synergy Fundamentals class. Probably the best money I spent on my build.
 
No apology needed. I appreciate your reply. I started a Zenith 601xl a few years ago and got rid of it when they started having wing problems. I have so much to learn and it's great being able to tap into all this experience and knowledge from those that went before me. Thanks again and feel free to advise any time. Darrell
 
Hey Darrell--if I can give some advise---same that was given to me:
Get proficient with both. My first with a squeezer were---not so good. But with practice and guidance they got better. Same with a gun and bucking bar. Too soft, or too hard, them learned some finesse and they got better. Lee and Dennis were huge help in learning. Get some scrap aluminum and some 426 and 470 rivets and practice, using one of those rivet scales to check your progress.
You will get better!
Tom
 
And to add to the thread, in addition to the Tatco and Avery manual squeezers, there is also the "Main Squeeze" from Cleaveland Aircraft Tool Company. Again, it costs more than the others, but you should also be aware that many RV builders like it's light weight and it's non-linear squeezing response.

Very timely thread, for me, because I'm about to select and buy a hand squeezer for a small project (new battery tray to hold my Odyssey 925).

All of the projects I have in mind which require riveting are very small. So I want to begin with a hand squeezer. I'm researching what I need to get. I saw the post suggesting the Avery as it had a longer handle and therefore more squeezing power. And I saw this post suggesting the "Main Squeeze".

I had already viewed the Main Squeeze video and am leaning toward that one. However I have to first research what you have to buy to make it a functional tool. Seems you have to get a yoke in addition to the dies (which you'd have to buy for any squeezer). Not sure yet if the Avery comes with a yoke.

Also on my list are a set of shop head rivet gauges, a pair of cleco pliers, and the cleco's I need for this first job.

Am I missing anything?

Thanks!
 
Ive done 99.9% of all my rivets with these: Main Squeeze; this tungsten bar http://www.tungstenbuckingbars.com/images/more_pics/etbb13.html; a polished flat steel plate for back riveting; a c-frame; and an ATS 3x Pro rivet gun.

Doing it right means using quality tools. There is no substitute for a well driven rivet; swearing wont make it better.

WRT main squeeze qu, I bought the squeeze kit as I didnt have anything either. Its served me (and continues to do so) fine for most everything, though I had to break down and buy a flange yoke eventually.....I did buy other dies, like a tank die set, a sub structure die which I like a lot, and a set for 6-32 and 8-32 screws. Dont bother with those until you have the need.
 
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