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Landing an RV-8

Wade: Thank you for your response. I also did transition training with Alex in his 7 and his instruction was top notch, but the 8 feels different. I exchanged emails with Alex today and he gave me some additional pointers that I'll try on the next flight, hopefully with better results!

I love my 8 and the challenge she presents in landings. When I can land her as well as I can land my Mooney I'll be a VERY happy camper. But it will take some time, nerve and practice.
 
Get a little skip or bounce? Don't chase it. Freeze your pitch input and drop one wing just a tad (5 degrees maybe) before the second contact. It won't skip again; the vertical energy gets dissipated against roll inertia in rolling the aircraft back to level as it contacts with one tire, then the other.
 
I will chip in with our technique on the 7 with the MT prop.

As previous correspondents have mentioned the prop braking effect can be quite noticeable, especially with the 3 blade props with a greater surface area.

We have found that keeping the prop set at around 2400 rpm on the downwind leg, then leaving it to touchdown stops the rapid braking effect in the flare.

Some guys are advocating leave a trickle of power on - this has a similar effect.

The old wive's tale of the prop has to be fully fine for landing is utter bunkum and tosh !

You need sufficient power available to safely complete a missed approach in the configuration you approach in - period.

I flew skydivers for 10 years in big singles - 182, 205, 206, 207, PA32 etc. During that time, I rarely landed fully fine for two reasons - primarily noise abatement and secondarily, it just flew better. Additionally, we took off with 2500rpm set, again for noise abatement.

The caveat to that was if I returned with a load for whatever reason, then the prop went to full fine on short final to satisfy the go around case.

Also, as mentioned, correctly trimmed speed control is essential and our standby ASI is of the Falcon variety...... It is somewhat variable. If you have AOA - use that. Properly calibrated, it is a superb tool for monitoring the approach, particularly when into tight strips.

Finally - and this is only specific to the 7, I use 2/3rds flap unless into a really short strip. I am yet to experience the 8 and as it is tandem with such variable c of g, I am guessing it will be different. Remember in our youth, we have all flown Cessna 150's and 152's.

The old 150's had 40 flap, the 152's only had 30 flap - because they found it was over flapped. I believe the Vans aeroplanes are similar, particularly when light, however, I would like input from 8 drivers on this. As I say, partial flap works well on the 7.

Give it a try - I'm sure you won't be disappointed.
 
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Wow...2400 RPM landing in an RV-8! We have quite the gamut of techniques. Newbie RV or RV-8 drivers should remember that there is absolutely nothing special about them, as tailwheel airplanes go. They can be 3-pointed, wheel landed, landed just fine from 1.3 Vso, full flaps, power off (yes - even with a 3-blade CS prop pushed in), or dragged in at 90 mph, floated for 2000 ft...or easily stopped with less than 800 ft. of runway behind you. No matter how much it's complicated, it's just an airplane...and a benign one at that. The only requirement is elementary tailwheel skills. To each their own.
 
Errrr - no :rolleyes:


Set the prop control to 2400 when downwind and adjust the throttle accordingly.

It's a constant speed prop.

What it is doing is allowing the prop to be back driven and not setting it to full fine.

It stops the braking effect in the flare.
 
It stops the braking effect in the flare.

Why would you want to stop it? That's one of the nice things about a CS prop on slick airplanes like an RV. RVs can use all the drag they can get during landing. It's not like if you fly 1.3Vso, power off, full flaps with the prop pushed in that the airplane gives you no time to smoothly find the runway. It's all about energy management and practice. Some people float for 10 seconds before finding the runway, and others can do a single smooth pull and let the airplane squat for a perfect landing with very little float. It's all a matter of practice and preference. Setting the prop more coarse during landing is similar to landing a FP prop with a little power on. I view it as a crutch in light single engine airplanes. Again, pilots come in all shapes and sizes.
 
RV Experience

Why would you want to stop it? That's one of the nice things about a CS prop on slick airplanes like an RV. RVs can use all the drag they can get during landing. It's not like if you fly 1.3Vso, power off, full flaps with the prop pushed in that the airplane gives you no time to smoothly find the runway. It's all about energy management and practice. Some people float for 10 seconds before finding the runway, and others can do a single smooth pull and let the airplane squat for a perfect landing with very little float. It's all a matter of practice and preference. Setting the prop more coarse during landing is similar to landing a FP prop with a little power on. I view it as a crutch in light single engine airplanes. Again, pilots come in all shapes and sizes.

Mr. Luddite,

I'm curious to know which RV model you own, and how much time you have in one. Care to share this information with the other readers of this thread?

Skylor
 
Mr. Luddite,

I'm curious to know which RV model you own, and how much time you have in one. Care to share this information with the other readers of this thread?

Skylor

I do not currently own an RV. I've got about 300 hrs in an RV-4 years back. And I've flown most of the other models with both CS and FP props, and still don't share the impression that they're any more difficult to manage than any other airplane during landing....CS prop or otherwise. I've flown enough other high performance and aerobatic types that the RV seems like a powderpuff airplane when I get back in one.

So if you're concerned that I don't have as much RV experience as many others, then that's true. But how many thousands of hours does it take to learn how to land an airplane? And I can tell you that my experience in other more higher performing, aerobatic types with much bigger fatter CS props puts the RV into perspective more so than those pilots who moved into RVs having only ever flown spam trainers.

So now that you know my RV experience, what statements do you actually take issue with? Sorry if I am not overwhelmed by making a plain old power off landing with a CS prop pushed all the way in. That doesn't take anything special. Anybody can do it. But lots of pilots come from the world of flying 172s at 75 kts down final with power all the way to the roundout, so I do understand that lots of pilots are not comfortable making power off landings, much less with the prop pushed in.

But don't think I'm dismissing RVs - they are wonderful airplanes. I would not pay attention here if I thought otherwise. They're just airplanes at the end of the day. I don't treat them any differently than anything else.
 
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I do not currently own an RV. I've got about 300 hrs in an RV-4 years back. And I've flown most of the other models with both CS and FP props, and still don't share the impression that they're any more difficult to manage than any other airplane during landing....CS prop or otherwise. I've flown enough other high performance and aerobatic types that the RV seems like a powderpuff airplane when I get back in one.

So if you're concerned that I don't have as much RV experience as many others, then that's true. But how many thousands of hours does it take to learn how to land an airplane? And I can tell you that my experience in other more higher performing, aerobatic types with much bigger fatter CS props puts the RV into perspective more so than those pilots who moved into RVs having only ever flown spam trainers.

So now that you know my RV experience, what statements do you actually take issue with? Sorry if I am not overwhelmed by making a plain old power off landing with a CS prop pushed all the way in. That doesn't take anything special. Anybody can do it. But lots of pilots come from the world of flying 172s at 75 kts down final with power all the way to the roundout, so I do understand that lots of pilots are not comfortable making power off landings, much less with the prop pushed in.

But don't think I'm dismissing RVs - they are wonderful airplanes. I would not pay attention here if I thought otherwise. They're just airplanes at the end of the day. I don't treat them any differently than anything else.


Mr. Luddite,

I only questioned your RV experience level, because you were so quick to reject Mr. Newall's advice, which frankly, is not bad advice and can be helpful when tlearning to land the -8.

Admittedly many of the suggestions that hve been given here such as using partial flaps, adding a little power, pulling the prop governor back a bit, touching down 1 wheel first, etc., are really just crutches to help make up for bad technique or poor timing. The point is, when someone is new to a certain type plane and are having trouble with landings, a "crutch" can help them begin to make safe and consistent landings. Once this happens, the pilots confidence will go up and then they can concentrate on their timing and technique better. Eventually, one should be able to improve their skill enough to remove the crutches. In fact, I know of one fairly well known tail dragger/aerobatic school that intentionally sets the engine idle high on their fleet of Decathlons to make them somewhat more forgiving during landings. A high idle speed simply gives a bigger time window for a pilot to get his landing flare correct without the aircrafts speed dropping off quickly. Pulling the prop governor off the forward stop helps do the same thing.

Skylor
RV-8 N808SJ
 
Mr. Luddite,

I only questioned your RV experience level, because you were so quick to reject Mr. Newall's advice, which frankly, is not bad advice and can be helpful when tlearning to land the -8.

Admittedly many of the suggestions that hve been given here such as using partial flaps, adding a little power, pulling the prop governor back a bit, touching down 1 wheel first, etc., are really just crutches to help make up for bad technique or poor timing. The point is, when someone is new to a certain type plane and are having trouble with landings, a "crutch" can help them begin to make safe and consistent landings. Once this happens, the pilots confidence will go up and then they can concentrate on their timing and technique better. Eventually, one should be able to improve their skill enough to remove the crutches. In fact, I know of one fairly well known tail dragger/aerobatic school that intentionally sets the engine idle high on their fleet of Decathlons to make them somewhat more forgiving during landings. A high idle speed simply gives a bigger time window for a pilot to get his landing flare correct without the aircrafts speed dropping off quickly. Pulling the prop governor off the forward stop helps do the same thing.

Skylor
RV-8 N808SJ

I disagree with none of this when it comes to first learning. But I do like to see pilots develop a stronger command of their aircraft as they build time. I see lots of flight school pilots (and many pilots in general) who never break out of that initial "I was taught that way" method of flying. Always keep thinking for yourself, and keep building skills, and do what works best for you.
 
Interesting! I'm building a -7 and I absolutely love doing wheelies. Nothing says "joe pilot" as much as a nicely stuck wheel landing. I do them successfully in Citabrias, but the gear there is also the flat steel type.

Can you get an after-market flat steel gear for a -7? Even the Citabria, when learning, can be quite bouncy and exciting.

Anyone do consistent wheelies in the -7?

Yes, I'm doing consistent wheelies in a -7 and love them. They are EASY and I do them in all circumstances. If anyone tells you you can't do wheelies in a -7, it's because they probably don't have the ability. If you are having troubles landing your -7 in a 3 point, try wheelies. It will set you free.
 
I disagree with none of this when it comes to first learning. But I do like to see pilots develop a stronger command of their aircraft as they build time. I see lots of flight school pilots (and many pilots in general) who never break out of that initial "I was taught that way" method of flying. Always keep thinking for yourself, and keep building skills, and do what works best for you.

I completely agree! As they say, a PPL is a license to learn.

Skylor
 
I do not currently own an RV. I've got about 300 hrs in an RV-4 years back. And I've flown most of the other models with both CS and FP props, and still don't share the impression that they're any more difficult to manage than any other airplane during landing....CS prop or otherwise. I've flown enough other high performance and aerobatic types that the RV seems like a powderpuff airplane when I get back in one.

So if you're concerned that I don't have as much RV experience as many others, then that's true. But how many thousands of hours does it take to learn how to land an airplane? And I can tell you that my experience in other more higher performing, aerobatic types with much bigger fatter CS props puts the RV into perspective more so than those pilots who moved into RVs having only ever flown spam trainers.

So now that you know my RV experience, what statements do you actually take issue with? Sorry if I am not overwhelmed by making a plain old power off landing with a CS prop pushed all the way in. That doesn't take anything special. Anybody can do it. But lots of pilots come from the world of flying 172s at 75 kts down final with power all the way to the roundout, so I do understand that lots of pilots are not comfortable making power off landings, much less with the prop pushed in.

But don't think I'm dismissing RVs - they are wonderful airplanes. I would not pay attention here if I thought otherwise. They're just airplanes at the end of the day. I don't treat them any differently than anything else.

Rick,

No doubt you have a lot experience and thanks for sharing it here.

But I question whether an RV should be flown "like any other airplane". Every airplane has unique characteristics.

Clearly, based on what has been written here and from my own minimal experience, the RV-8 should be wheel landed. (just like the P-51 it resembles in miniature) The commonly held opinion that a fall stall landing is safer than a wheel landing because of slower touch down speed does not ring true. It is an opinion not supported by fact.

STICK AND RUDDER author Languewiesche said way back in 1944, the three point landing is not the only way to get it down, it is not even the best way. Airline pilots and "hot" service pilots have long abandoned it....it is an unsafe and unbeautiful manuever...it requires the pilot throw the airplane deliberately out of control - and near the ground at that!

That opinion is somewhat at odds with much of what has been written and professed by others on the subject of landing a tail wheel airplane. Mike Seager advised me privately to learn how to do a 3 pointer in my RV-8 and for sure Van holds a similar view. These guys invented "landing the RV".

But my feeling is "what for"? It lands very nicely on its main wheels. Is the full stall 3 point landing safer? Prove it. The RV is not stalled in the 3 point attitude, it will only be stalled if the tail hits first, a most ungraceful wayto end any flight. I can just see a DC-3 pilot doing attempting full stall landing.

The pilot has 2 choices making a short field approach with a 3 pointer, fly short final and cross the fence just above stall speed with minimum control or watch runway disappear behind you as you flare a dissipate speed going into the stalled landing. Neither is a good idea. (IMHO of course)

Conversely, if the airplane is spiked on it mains at the end of the runway at stall plus 10 knots, it will decelerate quicker than floating down the runway, it is under better control, and in the end won't use anymore runway the doing it with a full stall 3 pointer.

That seems to make good sense to me and is the reason I am not interested in doing a full stall 3 pointer in the RV-8. My limited experience may bite me in time but I do know the difference in landing this airplane and the Citabria which behaves very nicely with 3 pointers.

I say all this because I do not believe all airplanes should be flown with one cookie cutter philosophy. The P-51 is not landed in a full stall and I do not believe the RV-8 should be either, for the same reasons.
 
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I've been watching this thread and others about cross wind landings with some interest. Yesterday I did a bunch of circuits with cross winds and some gusts. I tried to do a few three pointers and it wasn't a pretty show. Things worked out a lot better when I wheeled it on. With these conditions, at least for me, a wheel landing seems like the sensible choice.
 
Ditto. My Air Tractor weighs close to 5,000 # empty and lands so well in a tail-low wheeled on landing. I did two loads this morning and every time that I've tried three-pointers, I look like an amateur.

Best,
 
But I question whether an RV should be flown "like any other airplane". Every airplane has unique characteristics.

Yes, every airplane may have very slightly different considerations. The same goes for RVs. And since most airplanes do have slight differences, you would approach an RV with that in mind - just the same as you would for any other airplane. :) I just get the feeling sometimes that many people consider RVs to be in a uniquely different category compared to ALL the other airplanes out there when it comes to training and operation. The RV is just another airplane in the mix. Extremely straightforward. Just learn its specifics like any other.

Clearly, based on what has been written here and from my own minimal experience, the RV-8 should be wheel landed. (just like the P-51 it resembles in miniature) The commonly held opinion that a fall stall landing is safer than a wheel landing because of slower touch down speed does not ring true. It is an opinion not supported by fact.

But preference and "rules" are still two different things. I don't think it's appropriate to say the RV-8 "should" be wheel landed. Many simply get better results and find them easier due to the forward CG nature of the RV-8 when flown solo. Things change with CG differences. I have seen and flown RV-8s with two up that 3-pointed beautifully and very normally.

And regarding the P-51, they were generally 3-pointed by the pilots who the airplane was actually intended to be flown by - WWII military pilots. Though the modern Warbird community does generally advocate wheel landing these airplanes now. Night and day paradigm they are flying under compared to the original intention of the airplane.

STICK AND RUDDER author Languewiesche said way back in 1944, the three point landing is not the only way to get it down, it is not even the best way. Airline pilots and "hot" service pilots have long abandoned it....it is an unsafe and unbeautiful manuever...it requires the pilot throw the airplane deliberately out of control - and near the ground at that!

That opinion is somewhat at odds with much of what has been written and professed by others on the subject of landing a tail wheel airplane. Mike Seager advised me privately to learn how to do a 3 pointer in my RV-8 and for sure Van holds a similar view. These guys invented "landing the RV".

Since you are new to tailwheel flying, I can understand your impressionable mind when it comes to what has been written about different types of landings. No, you won't see a DC-3 do a 3-pointer. That doesn't mean wheel landings are better. To say that a 3-point landing is unsafe and unbeautiful is utter hogwash - as much as I respect Mr. Langeweische's writings in general. I've personally seen more landing accidents a result of wheel landings than 3-pointers. That of course is anectdotal, and hardly a scientific statistic. Some airplanes are unsafe to wheel land. You will never see a Sukhoi do a wheel landing. Again, aircraft differences. Unless aircraft characteristics strongly dictate the type of landing, 3-point or wheelie is purely preference.

But my feeling is "what for"? It lands very nicely on its main wheels. Is the full stall 3 point landing safer? Prove it. The RV is not stalled in the 3 point attitude, it will only be stalled if the tail hits first, a most ungraceful wayto end any flight. I can just see a DC-3 pilot doing attempting full stall landing.

I don't know anyone who ever said, generally speaking, that either type of landing is any "safer" and the other. The majority of tailwheel airplanes are not fully stalled in a 3-point attitude. The RV is no different. The term "full stall landing" is often interchanged with "3-point landing", even though technically the 3-pointer is often not an actual full-stall landing.

The pilot has 2 choices making a short field approach with a 3 pointer, fly short final and cross the fence just above stall speed with minimum control or watch runway disappear behind you as you flare a dissipate speed going into the stalled landing. Neither is a good idea. (IMHO of course)

Well if you are landing on a runway so short that it requires the airplane to get stopped in a distance which is at the absolute limits of the aircraft's capability, then you might want to reconsider the landing spot. Few RV pilots NEED to do an absolute minimum distance short field 3-point landing, even though if properly executed could result in a shorter landing than any 3-point touchdown. Watch the pilots who win the STOL landing contests - 3-point touchdowns, instantly pushed over onto the wheels for maximum braking. Again it's not a safety distinction. It's a pilot preference issue.

Conversely, if the airplane is spiked on it mains at the end of the runway at stall plus 10 knots, it will decelerate quicker than floating down the runway, it is under better control, and in the end won't use anymore runway the doing it with a full stall 3 pointer.

Float control is a pilot factor. See above.

That seems to make good sense to me and is the reason I am not interested in doing a full stall 3 pointer in the RV-8. My limited experience may bite me in time but I do know the difference in landing this airplane and the Citabria which behaves very nicely with 3 pointers.

That is a perfectly fine choice.

I say all this because I do not believe all airplanes should be flown with one cookie cutter philosophy. The P-51 is not landed in a full stall and I do not believe the RV-8 should be either, for the same reasons.

Nobody ever said that you should not consider aircraft differences. I get the feeling you are type of pilot who will always prefer wheel landings in most any tailwheel airplane you fly. That's fine as long as there's nothing about the airplane that would make wheel landings a true problem. There aren't too many like that. So you have stated your preference. I also saw in another post of yours that you like the forward visibility of a tail up landing. Lots of others do as well. But forward visibility is nicety, not a necessity. There are plenty of airplane with zero forward visibility in any reasonable landing attitude, and you just learn to deal with it. Not a safety issue, and not a problem at all for the pilot.

Appreciate your comments. Have fun with all your tailwheel and RV-8 flying.
 
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Landing Confession

I'm only 25 hours and about 70 landings into the ~8
I also have exited both left and right just about when I thought ( I HAVE THIS )
I wheel land-stick forward until canopy rail level with runway-raise flaps, when tail drops I pin it and try to brake evenly.
I have better rudder control by keeping my heels on the floor, however the transition from rudder to brakes is the issue unless I wear smooth sole shoes that are narrow. Maybe a bad excuse but the timing from rudder to brake seems to be critical for me, and with wide tennis shoes that won't slide up to the brakes gets the heart pumping.

The last landing I raise my heels off the floor so I could be ready on the brakes, that seemed to be better for braking but less accurate on rudder centerline.
I guess I'll have to keep special shoes in the plane until I get this beast mastered, or trade it for 8A
 
Hang in there! It's worth it! As you can see from my previous posts in this thread, I had a lot of difficulty landing my 8 when I first got it. I remedied the problem by getting about 10 hours of dual in an Xtreme Decathlon... I just needed more tailwheel instruction than the endorsement provides. Since completing that I've been able to land my 8 with confidence, and every time I do I feel like a million bucks!
 
the transition from rudder to brakes is the issue unless I wear smooth sole shoes that are narrow.

The last landing I raise my heels off the floor so I could be ready on the brakes, that seemed to be better for braking but less accurate on rudder centerline

I have about 200hrs on my 8.

Narrow shoes are the best! I have a set of Piloti driving shoes I keep for flying. I don't always wear them, but they are the best! I'm size 12W and like you some of my normal sneakers stick half way up the pedals.

I ALWAYS slide my feet up with heels above the floor and balls of my feet on the lower part of the pedal when on base. I added some pedal bars to the bottom of the pedals which help to make sure you are not on the brakes when landing (that gets exciting fast if it happens) I think it's pretty important to be able to be on the brakes without moving your feet so you have all your options in case they are needed.

I rarely use any brake on landing until I'm slowed down, but sometimes with gusty crosswinds it can be needed.

Keep practicing and it will get easier. The 8 is a fantastic taildragger!
 
I'm only 25 hours and about 70 landings into the ~8
I also have exited both left and right just about when I thought ( I HAVE THIS )
I wheel land-stick forward until canopy rail level with runway-raise flaps, when tail drops I pin it and try to brake evenly.
I have better rudder control by keeping my heels on the floor, however the transition from rudder to brakes is the issue unless I wear smooth sole shoes that are narrow. Maybe a bad excuse but the timing from rudder to brake seems to be critical for me, and with wide tennis shoes that won't slide up to the brakes gets the heart pumping.

The last landing I raise my heels off the floor so I could be ready on the brakes, that seemed to be better for braking but less accurate on rudder centerline.
I guess I'll have to keep special shoes in the plane until I get this beast mastered, or trade it for 8A

Stan, when you say that you have the stick forward to keep it in the two-wheel attitude until the tail drops, I think you're making directional control way more difficult than you have to. I've only got a few thousand hours in the RV-8, but find that a TAIL LOW wheel landing, works easily, and then put the tail down sooner rather than later so that you have control with the tail wheel. This is sort of the best of both worlds between a wheel landing and three-pointer.

Paul
 
I have about 125 hours flying my RV-8 with a bunch of landings. The tail low wheel landing seems to work out best for me, anyways. I have tried to three point it just to experiment with it, but it seems to run out of flying before I can get the tail all the way down and it just settles on the runway tail low. I continue to experiment but for me it lands best tail low on the mains. Without trying very hard and no brakes, I'm using about 1500' of runway for a comfortable landing. This is with just me in the airplane; with a passenger it is definitely easier to get the tail down and three point it.
 
Stan, when you say that you have the stick forward to keep it in the two-wheel attitude until the tail drops, I think you're making directional control way more difficult than you have to. I've only got a few thousand hours in the RV-8, but find that a TAIL LOW wheel landing, works easily, and then put the tail down sooner rather than later so that you have control with the tail wheel. This is sort of the best of both worlds between a wheel landing and three-pointer.

Paul

So let me understand, touch mains and push forward to stick it, but don't bring tail to high or plane level, but rather let the tail be somewhere between level and the ground....let's say about a foot or so high ????
 
So let me understand, touch mains and push forward to stick it, but don't bring tail to high or plane level, but rather let the tail be somewhere between level and the ground....let's say about a foot or so high ????

Almost - touch the mains with the tail just six inches to a foot off the ground (you'll be almost done flying), and don't really push to stick it, just relax the back pressure a little - then let the tail touch as the speed bleeds off. It will get on the ground, and give you tailwheel steering, much quicker than what you're doing.

Paul
 
Thanks guys, I actually had a great weekend full of greasers after taking your advice. My instructor had me coming in a little fast, I think the little wheel can stay where it's at for now.
 
Thanks guys, I actually had a great weekend full of greasers after taking your advice. My instructor had me coming in a little fast, I think the little wheel can stay where it's at for now.

Hey Stan, there comes a point when its time to kick the CFI out of airplane and go out and figure out what works for yourself.

Good show!!! :)
 
My preference

Hey Stan, there comes a point when its time to kick the CFI out of airplane and go out and figure out what works for yourself.

Good show!!! :)

As a CFI I do not mind at all being kicked out of an airplane when the pilot is ready. I do; however, prefer that the aircraft be on the ground when this occurs. :)

Don
 
Flight Briefing for RV Drivers.

I just have had a request for my RV Flight Briefing which I posted on this thread about eight years ago.
To save any interested RV Drivers from reading back so far, I renew my offer to email the briefings to any them.

The briefings are:
1. Pete?s RV Tail-wheel Ops
2. Pete's RV Circuit
3. Pete's RV Circuit summary
4. Pete's Circuit Cheatsheet
5. Pete's RV Ops Manual
6. Pete's CRZ PWR & Limits placard

Anyone wishing to have a copy can email me at

[email protected].

Pete.
 
On this topic. Who here consistently lands with no flaps?

What are the key differences in touch down speeds and handling without flaps?

Kevin: I almost always land with full flaps. They are very effective at slowing the airplane down and adding drag. When there is a strong crosswind with gusts, I tend to land 0 flaps or half-flaps -- the extra speed comes in handy in managing the turbulence.

With zero flaps your touchdown speed is going to be about 8-10 knots faster depending on who accurately your airspeed instrument is calibrated.

About every 3 months I spend a session just doing touch and go's and at that time I always practice landing with 0 degree, half-flaps and full-flaps. It serves as a good reminder of how much faster you land with 0 flaps and how the aircraft handles. The training also comes in handy when practicing engine out landings (with power all the way back and prop set to takeoff position, the -8 loses altitude very quickly :eek:. Practice this at higher altitude first; then compare to having the prop all the way back as if feathered, the difference in glide ratio should be substantial).

As mentioned in earlier posts the RV-8 can get a significant sink rate if you let it get too slow (or pull power on final) and recovery can take time and power; so carrying some power to the flare is my recommendation.

BTW, I'm light and usually fly solo so I don't even consider three-point for the -8; it just doesn't want to do that gracefully for me. YRMV.

Chris
 
Still Learning

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Went flying yesterday loose formation with a friend, and using the landing techniques suggested from this thread really has boosted by confidence.
If I can keep making greasers, this could get really fun.:D
Missing the Bonanza could fade sooner than later.
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First unassisted landing

Stan, when you say that you have the stick forward to keep it in the two-wheel attitude until the tail drops, I think you're making directional control way more difficult than you have to. I've only got a few thousand hours in the RV-8, but find that a TAIL LOW wheel landing, works easily, and then put the tail down sooner rather than later so that you have control with the tail wheel. This is sort of the best of both worlds between a wheel landing and three-pointer.

Paul

So today was the day my transition CFI got out and said "go for it. You will be fine" we had been practicing 3 pointers. He gives me 200+lbs of aft loading to make those possible. But none of them were something to be proud of. Just satisfactory. So I had built up a good deal of apprehension over the thought of going it alone. Well, let me tell you, First landing was tail low wheel landing "chirp, chirp" then let the tail come down. I couldn't believe it!! Did another the to prove it wasn't a fluke. So different without a heavy passenger.

I like my new plane.
 
I was off for 6 weeks, no flying, but got back to it big time last week with 4 launches between weather systems.

The envelope was widened just a bit with successful landing in gusting wind to 17 knots at 70 degrees. The wheel landing technique worked well on upwind wheel and then let it down on other and slow up with aggressive rudder to keep it aimed straight. After tail settled down, immediate full aft stick and tail wheel steering kicked it. It worked out ok.

But what helped most was thinking about how to manage the machine during landing before getting there, like 5 miles out. First mental task is to make sure flare is not high, but fly it right down to runway. Then be prepared to drop that wing just a bit and with opposite rudder, kick it straight. As soon as it touches, unload wing with a bit of forward pressure, make sure power is at idle, and let it slow up.

That's the plan, but of course it does not always work out, it is a goal and what makes flying so interesting.

Bob Hoover made 2 profound statements -
Fly it into crash as far as possible and
Practise Practise Practise.
:) :) :)
 
Cross Wind

We have 18/36 runway, yesterday wind was 090@7-9 so I thought this is the perfect time to get my feet wet.....wasn't real pretty. Being generous I had 2 fair and 3 really bad with 1 go around after bouncing.
Changed pants and went home before I broke something. When I got home all I could thing about was how bad those were, it was eating me up so back I go:mad:

First 2 was much better....then it happened :eek:

Somewhere I read to practice NO FLAP landings, you guessed it....flaps would not go down.
Happened to be one of my better ones of the day :rolleyes:
 
Landing the 8

I have landed quite a few tail draggers, none more difficult than my rv 8. I have all the same experiences as the above airmen.
 
Blain,

I've been waiting to hear about your first solo. Keep us posted on your progress please. Would love to hear more.

Went out Sunday and could not duplicate those two. Couple of go arounds. Sure can appreciate the power when things don't look good.

Gave up, went to 8,000' and opened it up. 187 KTAS

You may have saw us at Lincoln a couple of weeks ago. Taunting the students.
 
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I have landed quite a few tail draggers, none more difficult than my rv 8. I have all the same experiences as the above airmen.

It's just technique, but it might help to stop trying to 3 point it.

Tail wheel purists will puff up and say nonsense, 3 point all the time. Ok, that too is technique.

But wheel landing works for me - all the time. Even on short runways.

The 8 is in a different league than most small tail draggers. Yes it can be 3 pointed but if it is not perfect it will relaunch. It likes a tail low, wheel landing. That means as soon as it touches unload the wing with some forward stick. The reason it is so unpredictable with a classic 3 pointer is the wing is no where near stalled. The airplane wants to fly, not stay on the ground. It takes froward stick to get it to stay there.

It will never bounce with that technique.

To get some confidence doing it, use a little power to control final flare descent. Do it on a long runway at first. Once you get the feel for it, use less power or no power. The trick is to contact the runway with minimum sink, however it is accomplished. Maybe just fly it on once or twice with no intention to land, just a gentle touch and go.

To make all this work, the flare has to be right. In the beginning, most of us flare too high and milk it down. That is perfect set up for a bounce. To overcome the tendency to flare too soon, on final talk to your self, say fly it to runway, fly it to runway, etc. If possible do not key the mike button, a friend did that saying to himself, keep it straight, keep it straight.....all too the delight of those on frequency. :)
 
Caution

After tail settled down, immediate full aft stick and tail wheel steering kicked it. It worked out ok.

I would caution readers against overly aggressive "pinning the tail wheel". If the tail wheel is, for some reason not in the trail position and you agressively pin it you just might be surprised by an abrupt excursion! I prefer to gently set it down, briefly verify things still tracking straight, then smoothly add elevator.

Skylor
 
Your choice

I land by 8 both ways...sometimes wheel, sometimes 3 point, depends on what I feel is appropriate to the situation. On the 3 point I actually like to have the tail wheel touch just a bit before the mains, maybe an inch or so low. I find that this results in the angle of attack being reduced ever so slightly as the mains touch down. Steady back pressure and the aircraft does not want to re-launch...
 
I give up on 3 pointing this RV-8

I went out and shot 9 landings today, 6 on grass and 3 hard surface, trying to get it right regarding 3 pointers.

What I found was the aircraft absolutely is not ready to quit flying when on ground in 3 point attitude. It touches on all 3 and immediately relaunches unless some forward stick is applied to unload wing.

Wonder if relative aft cg with fixed pitch prop is contributing factor. If nose was 50 lbs heavier with CS prop in fine pitch, would it make a difference?

My only other experience with RV and CS prop was with Subby and MT. it was a speed brake in flight and on ground. First time i flew with Lycoming and Catto, took some adjustment to get it slowed up for landing after Subby and CS MT.

Anyway, I am wheel landing because it works better. I can not get this airplane to do a decent 3 point landing. It will do tail wheel first pogo dance a couple times, thats about it on 3 pointers.

PS 184 hours RV-8 time (about 300 landings) as of today....still trying to get it right with tail wheel ops...it is an interesting challenge after flying trikes for some 50+ years.
 
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I find the same tendencies in my fixed pitch 7, I prefer the tail wheel low wheelie. But in the spirit of learning the airplane I keep trying to perfect 3 pointers as I'm still a novice tailwheel pilot. Best I've found is a minimum sink rate in the right 3 point attitude inches above the runway, let it touch and freeze any pitch inputs while it bobbles around for 3-4 seconds and then slowly bring the stick back as it finishes flying.
 
Hey David, reading about your experiance between CS and fixed pitch gives me a thought; (sorry if this is old hashed out info). What do you have your ground static idle RPM set to? I run a Sensenich metal down to 600rpm, which will actually quit if left there. In flight I find the engine will never quit, but the airframe will slow down much quicker and stall into a three pointer much better. As soon as I slow my roll-out I am on the throttle just a little to keep the engine running, about 700 or so RPM. Your lighter Cato might need a little more RPM nudge on the ground. I learned from the beginning with the factory -7 trainer, its idle is set as low.
 
Hi Bruce, good point about FP idle. Mine was at 800 and I reset it sometime ago it was 640 taxiing in today.

I could try 600 but am disillusioned about benefit of full stall 3 point landing in this airplane. It is not a Cub or Citabria.

I first flew this machine out of our Airpark home before my wife became ill and we moved closer to hospital. That runway is 2200' asphalt and 1700' grass worked. I flew into there twice last week, made usual wheel landing and got stopped in usual 1000' or less. It of course depends on wind everyday. On a short runway it makes quite a difference. I also found out earlier shooting for full stall landing always left runway behind waiting for it to quit flying. It was wash item.

A CS prop would make a difference though, I flew the Subby with MT out of that Airpark and it always slowed quicker.
 
I've never flown an RV but, if it's any consolation to you RV-8 guys, I'm still learning how to land my Lancair 235 after 2-1/2 years of practice. The Lancair has tricycle gear, of course, but they're not as sturdy as the RV gear. The old Lancair hands advise me to touch down on the mains with a nose high attitude, but I've never been able to do that - The Lancair does NOT land like a C-172! I basically just fly the plane down to the runway with a little power, round out level with the runway, and make a nice, smooth 3-point landing. My main goal all along has been to NOT have it drop out of the sky on me when I'm 24" above the runway. I've worked so long and so hard on this airplane that I don't want to break it. In 2014 I started out landing at 85 KTs over the numbers, and have gradually worked my way down to 75 KTs. My stall speed is around 60 so that's about as close to the edge as I intend to get.
 
I was one of those "...an -8 won't 3 point..." people for several years of flying the -8 until I started flying my Taylorcraft. Suddenly, the next time I flew the -8 it was a 3 point. I don't know why, but since that time all (and I mean ALL) subsequent landings in the -8 have been 3 pointers. Solo and light, or loaded down with a pax and baggage, it doesnt seem to matter - this -8 will 3 point just fine now.

And the heck of it is, I'm not sure what I'm doing differently.

I can tell you that at times I've forced the stall break with a slightly sharp application of aft stick that seems to kill the tendency to float in ground effect.
 
View of gear doing wheel landings

Sorry if this isn't relevant to the thread.

Doing wheel landings to get comfortable with my ship. Every touchdown feels like a carnival ride. Decided to get video of what is really going on.

I feel a bit more confident now that I realize my landings aren't near as dramatic as they feel.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=0WUwRf6-vXw
 
My final take on landing RV-8....

...it looks a little like a P-51, fly it like a P-51!

And finally from Stick and Rudder (1944)....The three-point landing is not the only way to get an airplane down. It is not even the best way.....the tail up "wheel" landing, made at high speed, is getting more attention from many pilots. It is the way airliners and "hot" Army ships are landed, but it is just as easy and just as suitable for the smaller lighter airplane. It is perhaps the natural way of landing an airplane.

The above was prefaced (in the book) with lengthy solid discussion on why wheel landings were all around safer then full stall three pointers.

End of discussion, at least for me. :):):)
 
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