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  #21  
Old 11-14-2018, 10:34 AM
rv7charlie rv7charlie is offline
 
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I hesitated to comment on the news source, but I gave up on his print publication long before he did, due to his increasingly erratic 'reporting' behavior. Never paid any attention to ANN (because of him), so didn't know whether he'd changed his ways.
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  #22  
Old 07-28-2019, 04:29 PM
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airguy airguy is offline
 
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Post-Osh-2019, Deltahawk made the news on Avweb with some actual pricing and planning. They say that they are expecting certification of the 180hp engine by the end of 2019, and the initial market will be experimental, though the testbed is a Cirrus.

https://www.avweb.com/ownership/engi...engine-update/

They won't just sell you an engine though - they want you to deliver your airplane to them in Racine, WI and they will have their people install a FWF package, new cowl, engine management system etc and repaint the cowl to match your plane - for a total price point of $89,900.

They specifically mentioned an RV7 as the first FWF package development target. So they think they'll be able to sell you a $90k engine for a $60k airframe, apparently. Best of luck with that, I had high hopes for them.
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N16GN flying 500 hrs and counting! Built an off-plan 9A with too much fuel and too much HP. Should drop dead any minute now.

Last edited by airguy : 07-28-2019 at 04:40 PM.
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  #23  
Old 07-29-2019, 06:10 AM
tgmillso tgmillso is offline
 
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Location: Launceston, Tasmania, Australia
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Default Great idea... in 1996.

In 1996 this was a novel idea with huge possibilities, but I fear that now it's too little too late. With 1kg/kWh batteries not far away and new solutions from Tesla/Maxwell, XNRGI and Innolith immanent, the future of practical renewable powered electric aircraft is so close I can taste it.

https://insideevs.com/news/355152/te...-battery-tech/
https://www.techspot.com/news/81029-...-evs-grid.html
https://insideevs.com/news/343771/in...nergy-density/

The sooner those of us who want to fly renewable/electric powered aircraft can have the opportunity to do so, the longer the rest will be allowed to continue flying machines powered by liquefied dinosaurs. If the majority of transport is converted to renewables soon, those that want to keep flying internal combustion can continue to do so because they will be such a small portion of total emissions no one will care and it will be seen as a novel pursuit. I know people who are some of the biggest advocates of electric vehicles, not because they're a bunch of unwashed tree huggers, but because they love V8's and want the opportunity to still be driving them in 20 years time. If you love your internal combustion engines, we need to start convincing everyone around us who doesn't really care what gets them from A to B that they need to make the transition, assuming they can afford to be an early adopter before the prices come down to parity by 2024. Better still we too should make the transition for anything but what we wish to fly. The owner of one of the largest warbird collections in Australia gets around at ground level using an EV, so it appears I'm not alone on this viewpoint.

If the recent rapid uptake of a certain Californian made automobile is anything to go by, I believe a new dawn is upon us and I suspect it doesn't include the clatter of a diesel engine.

Tom.
RV-7 IO-360M1B, but I wish it was electric.

PS. I have a EE20 Subaru diesel and Marcotte direct drive for sale to anyone not convinced by my electric aircraft vision...

Last edited by tgmillso : 07-29-2019 at 06:18 AM.
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  #24  
Old 07-29-2019, 07:39 AM
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rv6ejguy rv6ejguy is offline
 
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With about the same claimed BSFC as a Lyc running LOP and this price point, not sure there will be a lot people beating their door down to get one installed on an RV7... Years too late and tens of thousands too expensive to make any economic sense.
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  #25  
Old 07-29-2019, 10:42 AM
scsmith scsmith is offline
 
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What?

Excuse me?

That is some fancy Kool-aid there!

I worked on two separate electric airplane projects over the years, and have been watching the liar's game on batteries since the late 1990's. Achieved energy density tracks about 1/3 of claimed over that time period. I've heard all the promises. 1 kwh/kg -- Aint gunna ever happen. Ever. But if the trend of 1/3 of claim continues, they will hit 333 wh/kg, which would still be a nice improvement. Tesla batteries are about 260 installed.
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Last edited by scsmith : 07-29-2019 at 10:45 AM.
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  #26  
Old 07-29-2019, 12:03 PM
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maniago maniago is offline
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by airguy View Post
They specifically mentioned an RV7 as the first FWF package development target. So they think they'll be able to sell you a $90k engine for a $60k airframe, apparently. Best of luck with that, I had high hopes for them.
Ok so hang on a sec. Delete everything firewall forward from the RV7 kit - mounts, cowl, prop, electrics, fuel system....with a new motor and new prop, all this stuff gotta be pushing 50K at least in parts alone. Another 30K round numbers for the engineering, manufacturing and packaging, install and paint maybe isnt really unreasonable. And that 89.9k is an offering for any airplane...so thats my cost for the Mustang2 cause nothings been done for that frame, and probably never would be again. But once an RV7 is done, they dont have to recreate that wheel again, so theres gotta be efficiencies......but there is a big trust factor that they can pull it off and the motor is worth it.
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MustangII (FoldingWing) "Finishing up": IO360B1E,RSA,C2YR-BF/F7666-2,Superior sump,James; 2xHXr,MiniX,EIS,480,327,240,SL30,Navworx; SteamAlt,AS,VSI,wet compass
Don't be a hater; I'm a cousin with thin wings!
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  #27  
Old 07-29-2019, 01:25 PM
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airguy airguy is offline
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by maniago View Post
Ok so hang on a sec. Delete everything firewall forward from the RV7 kit - mounts, cowl, prop, electrics, fuel system....with a new motor and new prop, all this stuff gotta be pushing 50K at least in parts alone. Another 30K round numbers for the engineering, manufacturing and packaging, install and paint maybe isnt really unreasonable. And that 89.9k is an offering for any airplane...so thats my cost for the Mustang2 cause nothings been done for that frame, and probably never would be again. But once an RV7 is done, they dont have to recreate that wheel again, so theres gotta be efficiencies......but there is a big trust factor that they can pull it off and the motor is worth it.
Granted, it's less of a stretch for someone building new right now - you just stop at the firewall and ship the fuse to Wisconsin for them to do the work. But for someone looking to convert a flying airplane, that hill is simply too tall to climb.
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Garden City, TX VAF 2019 dues paid
N16GN flying 500 hrs and counting! Built an off-plan 9A with too much fuel and too much HP. Should drop dead any minute now.
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  #28  
Old 07-29-2019, 01:42 PM
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maniago maniago is offline
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by airguy View Post
Granted, it's less of a stretch for someone building new right now - you just stop at the firewall and ship the fuse to Wisconsin for them to do the work. But for someone looking to convert a flying airplane, that hill is simply too tall to climb.
Agree 100%......way way past that decision point. I'm guessing electric conversions will come sooner than one of these on my front end.
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Mani
MustangII (FoldingWing) "Finishing up": IO360B1E,RSA,C2YR-BF/F7666-2,Superior sump,James; 2xHXr,MiniX,EIS,480,327,240,SL30,Navworx; SteamAlt,AS,VSI,wet compass
Don't be a hater; I'm a cousin with thin wings!
N251Y (res)
Jan2019
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  #29  
Old 07-31-2019, 09:04 AM
breister breister is offline
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tgmillso View Post
In 1996 this was a novel idea with huge possibilities, but I fear that now it's too little too late. With 1kg/kWh batteries not far away and new solutions from Tesla/Maxwell, XNRGI and Innolith immanent, the future of practical renewable powered electric aircraft is so close I can taste it.
I've been following this for decades. 1kWh/kg would mean to replace 1 gallon of gas would be approximately 8kg vs 2.7kg/gallon of 100LL (that amount precludes using more than 80% of the battery capacity to avoid damaging the battery). There is some additional savings in the weight of the motor, but we would still fall short on range for long distance flights. And, more tellingly, we don't have 1kWh/gk batteries yet. It is HOPED we will see commercial 350Wh/kg beginning at the end of this year from 24-M, which is busy building its very first factory (they produce in small quantity in their corporate HQ right now). Innolith is having scaling issues, the attraction with them is 30,000+ charge cycles but they are not yet cost competitive with Tesla / Panasonic / etc. I haven't heard any news that XNRGI is actually in production, but that doesn't prove anything.

Still, this is a very exciting time. Certainly for short hop planes and trainers this will universally be a "better solution" in the short term. Especially attractive about electric is that due to high torque / ability to deliver same hp over a wide variety of RPM it may never again be necessary to have C/S props or turbochargers. I'm looking forward to the day I can replace gas with battery and still get a 1,000 mile range.

Last edited by breister : 07-31-2019 at 09:13 AM. Reason: Corrected anticipated energy density end of this year
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  #30  
Old 07-31-2019, 09:11 AM
breister breister is offline
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by scsmith View Post
1 kwh/kg -- Aint gunna ever happen. Ever. But if the trend of 1/3 of claim continues, they will hit 333 wh/kg, which would still be a nice improvement. Tesla batteries are about 260 installed.
They already have Aluminum Air batteries with greater energy density than gasoline, the issue is price and rechargability. Clearly SOME kind of improvement is possible, the question is how clever we need to become to make them economically attractive.

24-M is targeting 350Wh/kg by the end of this year. I like their approach, which attacks manufacturing costs and can be applied to new chemistries as they arise. Their prediction is that they can build a new factory for around $20-40 million with the same capacity as a $1billion dollar plant producing traditional batteries.
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