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Wingtips/ailerons/flap alignment

Mark33

Well Known Member
I know this has been discussed about a million times before but I guess we can make it a million and one. I'm working on getting my ailerons lined up in preparation to fit the wingtips up on my -7. If I use the outer wing-rib tooling holes as my guide to get the aileron trailing edge lined up, than the flaps don't line up with the aileron when they're fully retracted. I've read conflicting things regarding this issue. Some folks say to line up the ailerons with the flaps...others say to focus on the tooling holes. I certainly want the airplane to fly straight and level without a heavy wing, but I also want it to look right...everything should be lined up...(wingtips, ailerons, flaps). I'm not worried about the wingtips; I can get those dialed in after everything else is lined up. However, speaking of wingtips though, what's the consensus on attaching those. I know it may be nice to be able to remove them, but is there any real reason to do so? I'm installing the Aveo "zip-tips" on my project and there's a large access plate on the bottom of the wingtip near the front which will allow me full access to the lights and wiring, so I'm wondering what the real benefit would be to designing them to be removable. I know some people do the piano- hinge technique and others use 1/4 turn or nut-plates, but if there's no real benefit to having them removable than I'm thinking about just riveting them on. I know there's also discussions regarding the "heavy wing" and how to deal with it by slotting the outer hinge bracket attach points on the ailerons, but for this discussion I'm mostly wanting to talk about initial proper alignment. I'm almost thinking that the best way to get everything lined up "and" to address a possible heavy wing will be to:
1. Align the ailerons up with the flaps first,
2. Go fly,
3. Adjust the outer aileron hinge accordingly to address a "heavy wing",
4. Adjusted the wingtips to line them up with the ailerons.

Thanks for any advice,
Mark
 
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Aileron setting

Mary,
My 7A has flown wings level since construction. Yes, I tinkered with the ailerons and flaps, spending a lot of time assuring that the rod ends had adequate thread contact. This was quite time consuming working outward from the stick, through the bell rank, and to the ailerons. But to your question, I followed vans guidance and set the ailerons to the tooling holes, THEN aligned the flaps to the ailerons. That simple! In my case,the trailing ends of the wingtips are not perfectly aligned with the ailerons but that hasn?t been an issue. Later you can go back and tweak the flap and/or ailerons if necessary. Hope this helps.

Jim Diehl 7A
Lock Haven, Pa
 
ailerons should be aligned with the tooling holes and the flaps with the ailerons. The mechanical end of the flaps upward travel does not place the flap in the properly rigged location for that wing. Don't be confused by what you may have read about the 10/14, where that is the case.

Install screws from the inside of the tooling holes and tighten with nuts on the outside. This gives you something to hold a straight edge on. Be sure to account for the fact that the straight edge will not be on the tooling holes center.

Larry
 
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Thanks Larry Jim for the reply,
Yeah, like I said, I'm really not all that concerned with the wingtips...I can adjust them accordingly once the ailerons and flaps are lined up and the airplane is flying straight and level. The main issue that I'm having right now is that when the ailerons are lined up with the tooling holes and with the flaps fully retracted, the ailerons are a little proud by about 1/8" in reference to the flaps and I don't see how I can get the flaps to come up any further. If I drop the ailerons down to line up with the flaps then they will be out of line with the tooling holes. Larry, you mentioned that the straight edge won?t be center of the tooling holes. If this is the case, what reference point are you actually using?

Thanks again,
Mark
 
Mark, you may have to joggle the inboard end of the lower flap skin to allow the flap?s trailing edge to come up to meet that of the aileron. If you droop the aileron to meet the flap, you?re going to end up with that wing having a little more camber than what it should, and the airplane will tend to turn away from that wing.
 
As Miles said, if the flaps aren't coming up high enough to be in alignment with the ailerons, something is catching or hanging up. I had to trim a bit of the curved portion of the flap an the extreme inboard edge, as it was hitting a rivet or something. Mine was a 6 and didn't think that would happen on a pre-punched kit. Either way, everything should line up with the tooling holes. If it doesn't, start snipping or adjusting until it does.

What I meant was that if you lay a straight edge on top of the two screws, your straight edge will be 1/2D above the tooling holes center and you need to account for that. If the screws were 1/8", the straight edge should be 1/16" above the center of the aileron trailing edge when properly aligned. I used the tooling holes in the aileron instead of the tip. In this case, the straight edge should align with the tops of the aileron tooling holes, not the centers. I am not sure if the aileron tooling holes should be in a direct line. Mine were not, but the were in plane, just offset when in proper aligment. That was on a 6, not a 7.

Larry
 
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The I set the aileron position using a taut string with a loop tied in one end clecoed into the forward tooling hole in the leading edge rib, and the other end taped securely to the trailing edge aileron. I adjusted the angle of the aileron until the string ran past the center of the rest of the tooling holes, then clamped it in place.

2qi7mog.jpg
 
Thanks Larry and Miles for the good information! I?ll double check the flaps and see if a little trimming or joggling will give me a little extra room to come up a little bit so that they?ll line up with the ailerons. Regarding the tooling holes/aileron alignment, I actually put a laser on them to line everything up. One thing I did noticed was that when the tooling holes are ?perfectly? aligned, the actual trailing edge tip of the ailerons aren?t ?perfectly? lined up. I?m having to ?cheat? by about a half a tooling hole to truly get that trailing aileron edge to line up.

Mark
 
Thanks Larry and Miles for the good information! I’ll double check the flaps and see if a little trimming or joggling will give me a little extra room to come up a little bit so that they’ll line up with the ailerons. Regarding the tooling holes/aileron alignment, I actually put a laser on them to line everything up. One thing I did noticed was that when the tooling holes are “perfectly” aligned, the actual trailing edge tip of the ailerons aren’t “perfectly” lined up. I’m having to “cheat” by about a half a tooling hole to truly get that trailing aileron edge to line up.

Mark

Food for thought, but from an aerodynamic standpoint, you are not aligning the tip, but aligning the desired air flow geometry over the two airfoils (wing & alileron). I would be aligning to the tooling holes and not the tip, as these were engineered to be the reference lines.

Larry
 
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Mark,

I’ve posted on this before so recommend you read those.

In short, the flaps must be in the full up position before anything else. I’ve fixed a couple of heavy wings by showing the owner this problem. After you do this, verify the flaps are at the same “in trail” position.

I know it goes against Van’s instructions and the wisdom of the crowd, but consider the tooling holes just a place to start. Get the flaps right, then ailerons, then wingtips. Now measure the aileron hang (as in too low/high, too far in at one end, etc.). The aileron hang is the leading cause of a heavy wing (assuming no construction issue). Once done go back to find the tooling holes lined up. After all that, rig the wingtips in line with the ailerons. Three RVs done this way and never had to cut the wingtip trailing edge.

I recommend #6 screws and nutplates to attached the wingtips. At some point you will want to take them off for new lights or for paint.

Carl
 
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Thanks guys for the input. So Carl, you mentioned something about ?aileron hang?. Are you referring to what people have written about regarding ?slotting? the attachment hinges so that the ailerons can be moved up and down slightly? I?m assuming that a straight edge could be put on the bottom of the wing and the ailerons should be flat and in plane with the bottom of the wing. Can you also direct me to some of your other post that mentioned so that I can read up on it? I have quick build wings, ailerons, and flaps, so hopefully everything was built square.

Thanks again,
Mark
 
Thanks guys for the input. So Carl, you mentioned something about “aileron hang”. Are you referring to what people have written about regarding “slotting” the attachment hinges so that the ailerons can be moved up and down slightly? I’m assuming that a straight edge could be put on the bottom of the wing and the ailerons should be flat and in plane with the bottom of the wing. Can you also direct me to some of your other post that mentioned so that I can read up on it? I have quick build wings, ailerons, and flaps, so hopefully everything was built square.

Thanks again,
Mark

Slotting is one way to address and alieron that is low/high at one end (or both). Another way is to get a no-hole aileron bracket (or two) from Van’s. With this you can offset the attachement hole from the center and go up, down, in or out.

While straight edges are good for checking in trail, there are other checks to do as well:
- After you verify the flaps up, align the inboard trailing edge to the flap trailing edge. Look for a twist in the flap or aileron by sighting down the trailing edge.
- With this one aileron clamped to the flap, verify the stick is in the center neutral postion. Have the elevators clamped in the neutral position as well.
- Adjusty the aileron rigging as needed to get the stick centered
- Now go adjust the other ailieron rigging so it lines up with that flap trailing edge.
- Measure the gap between the aileron and the top skin (I use shims of wood with tape to side along the gap). It should be constant and the same across the length of the aileron and should match the opposite aileron. Here is were you will find any aileron hang issues.
- If you have an issue, use your straight edges to decide what is truth. Once done you will know how much to raise/lower.
- Now measure from the most forward aileron rivet line to the most aft wing rivet line. This again should be constant across the aileron as well as match the opposite aileron. If not, then decide how much to move what end in or out.
- Now knowing both the up/down and in/out adjustment you are ready to drill a hole in the no-hole aileron bracket.
- Now go back and check your work, and have another RV builder check as well.

You may need more than one no-hole bracket. Remember it comes in both inboard and outboard versions. If you want you can use the brackets you have if you find someone that can weld up the hole.

After all this done, and only after, you fit the wingtips.

As far as the quickbuild being square, “trust but verify”.

Carl
 
Hi Carl,

When you say "make sure the flaps are all the way up", how do you gauge where "all the way up" is without first aligning the ailerons using the tooling holes and matching the flaps to that?

I'm working through my own heavy wing issue and have spent a lot of time with rigging, squeezing, fairing alignment and aileron hang adjusting. Ultimately, lowering the right aileron only 1/16" of an inch made a huge difference and the plane is almost hands off now. I'm going to go an additional 1/32" and it should be perfect. Interesting thing is that with the plane flying level, the left aileron is slightly (maybe 1/4") below the flap TE and the right aileron is slightly above the flap TE. If I move the stick to where the trailing edges of both are perfectly aligned, then I get a left roll. Not sure why that is.

Matt
 
Hi Carl,

When you say "make sure the flaps are all the way up", how do you gauge where "all the way up" is without first aligning the ailerons using the tooling holes and matching the flaps to that?

I'm working through my own heavy wing issue and have spent a lot of time with rigging, squeezing, fairing alignment and aileron hang adjusting. Ultimately, lowering the right aileron only 1/16" of an inch made a huge difference and the plane is almost hands off now. I'm going to go an additional 1/32" and it should be perfect. Interesting thing is that with the plane flying level, the left aileron is slightly (maybe 1/4") below the flap TE and the right aileron is slightly above the flap TE. If I move the stick to where the trailing edges of both are perfectly aligned, then I get a left roll. Not sure why that is.

Matt

Hey Matt,
Good questions for Carl. Also, when you said that you lowered your left aileron by 1/16", did you lower the entire thing or just one side (the outboard or inboard bracket)? Also, did you get new bracket(s) from Vans....the ones that you have to drill your own holes in, or did you just slot your original bracket(s)?

Thanks,
Mark
 
Slots AND new hinges.

Mark, Lets talk about the slots vs new drilled hinges - you will need to do both. I think I slotted, flew, measured, slotted some more, etc a dozen times before it was all sorted and flew balanced. That was after all the other checks (at least twice) were done, I even had to step back with one slotted hinge as it was too much. A 10 friend did a dozen as well.

So - slot to get it to rig, look and fly properly, then get new hinges, make a drill guide and drill new holes to match what works.

You would NEVER get the job done without both.

Disclaimer: this only addresses the hinges, other effects should get appropriate attention as well.
 
Mark, Lets talk about the slots vs new drilled hinges - you will need to do both. I think I slotted, flew, measured, slotted some more, etc a dozen times before it was all sorted and flew balanced. That was after all the other checks (at least twice) were done, I even had to step back with one slotted hinge as it was too much. A 10 friend did a dozen as well.

So - slot to get it to rig, look and fly properly, then get new hinges, make a drill guide and drill new holes to match what works.

You would NEVER get the job done without both.

Disclaimer: this only addresses the hinges, other effects should get appropriate attention as well.

Thanks Bill, it sounds like I have a lot of trial and error ahead of me. LOL!!
 
Thanks Bill, it sounds like I have a lot of trial and error ahead of me. LOL!!

I tell a lot of builders that rigging is a big deal - certainly not "one and done" like the instructions imply.

Don't forget that wheel pants and gear leg fairings are part of the rigging process as well. Get the plane rigged and flying right with the pants and fairings off, then check rigging with them on. Not done just right and you will find the ball out to one side.

Carl
 
I tell a lot of builders that rigging is a big deal - certainly not "one and done" like the instructions imply.

Don't forget that wheel pants and gear leg fairings are part of the rigging process as well. Get the plane rigged and flying right with the pants and fairings off, then check rigging with them on. Not done just right and you will find the ball out to one side.

Carl

Roger that....thanks Carl.
 
Hi Mark,

Like Bill said, it's both. I started with the stock hinges and slotted them 1/16" down. I did both sides as it seemed the whole aileron was high. Now I'm going to remove them again and slot an additional 1/32". Perhaps I'll have to do another iteration after that. After the plane is flying straight and I'm happy, I'll take the un-punched hinge brackets and transfer the holes to those and install them.
 
Hi Mark,

Like Bill said, it's both. I started with the stock hinges and slotted them 1/16" down. I did both sides as it seemed the whole aileron was high. Now I'm going to remove them again and slot an additional 1/32". Perhaps I'll have to do another iteration after that. After the plane is flying straight and I'm happy, I'll take the un-punched hinge brackets and transfer the holes to those and install them.

Also, I wouldn't ignore the trailing edge radius. Section 5 shows what they should look like by laying a straight edge on them. Mine were under squeezed and adjusting that that made a massive change as well. Literally went from a heavy left wing to a heavy right wing.
 
Wing/Aileron Template

In the day, Vans supplied a full sized drawing of the wing profile, including the aileron. You where instructed to use the template, and plywood from your shipping crate, to make a simple hinged clamshell that would hold the aileron in position for drilling the aileron brackets.
This worked very well. My 6 needed no adjustments. Heavy wings where typically associated with poorly formed aileron trailing edges, not aileron bracket position.
Did the template go the way of the Dodo with the matched drilled kits?
 
In the day, Vans supplied a full sized drawing of the wing profile, including the aileron. You where instructed to use the template, and plywood from your shipping crate, to make a simple hinged clamshell that would hold the aileron in position for drilling the aileron brackets.
This worked very well. My 6 needed no adjustments. Heavy wings where typically associated with poorly formed aileron trailing edges, not aileron bracket position.
Did the template go the way of the Dodo with the matched drilled kits?

So true. I saved the plywood templates from my first build and have used them on many RVs to find truth to solve rigging problems. Even so, this is a tool for where you start, and not the only thing to check.

Carl
 
They don't come with the kit, but you can still order the full size template. I have one in my possession (thanks to Larry aka lr172).
 
So true. ......have used them on many RVs to find truth to solve rigging problems. Even so, this is a tool for where you start, and not the only thing to check.

Carl

I like how you word this. A simple tool as a starting point at the very least.
 
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