VansAirForceForums  
Home > VansAirForceForums

- POSTING RULES
- Donate yearly (please).
- Advertise in here!

- Today's Posts | Insert Pics


Go Back   VAF Forums > Regional Forums > Midwest
Register FAQ Members List Calendar Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read

Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread Display Modes
  #11  
Old 12-08-2018, 01:29 AM
Langt Langt is offline
 
Join Date: Apr 2018
Location: Lambertville, MI
Posts: 9
Default

We don't know if we paid the tax back then or not, or whether or not any filing was made. Still researching this, but haven't found the sacred paper. I've read the law (Michigan Senate bill 337 sec 27a(2), amended in 2014, but it is not very clear. It says

"A deficiency, interest, or penalty shall not be assessed after the expiration of 4 years after the date set for the filing of the required return or after the return was filed, whichever is later..."

I think they interpret it to their favor --i.e. if no return was filed they say the limitation never starts. I would say it was intended to allow auditing time for late filers that might put in an amended return for a refund. But in practice, it appears that as Marc said, if no filing was made, then there is no statute of limitations. If that is the case, then they can audit and assess the tax if they choose to do so as a matter of policy within a prescribed time from discovery. Problem is, if I get the lawyers and CPAs involved at $200+ per hour each, then we might as well just turn over the airplane anyway.

The takeaway of this post is -- Don't make assumptions about state "use" tax, make required filings, keep records forever, and check before you move an airplane to another state.
Reply With Quote
  #12  
Old 12-08-2018, 06:08 AM
swaltner swaltner is offline
 
Join Date: May 2005
Location: Benton, KS
Posts: 46
Default

You might want to contact AOPA (or EAA) to ask about this. I remember AOPA getting involved when Florida tried billing people use tax on new aircraft when they came to visit. If Michigan is trying this on several people, the national organizations tend to get involved.
__________________
--
Steve Waltner
RV-8A (Under Construction)
Reply With Quote
  #13  
Old 12-22-2018, 08:58 AM
Langt Langt is offline
 
Join Date: Apr 2018
Location: Lambertville, MI
Posts: 9
Default

Just a bit of an update. I sent for the FAA paper records. They came in about 4 days, which I thought was exceptional. I found we were the 6th individual owner of the airplane (excluding factory and 2 dealers) in the six years between manufacture and when we bought it in 1978 (btw: I was wrong about the 38 years that we owned it -- it was 40) Records include original airworthiness certificate copy, and always included FAA bill of sale for transfers, all registrations, repair/alteration forms, and often included sales information like loan agreements. I got about 60 pages for about $12, priced per page (non-certified version). Good deal.

As for my dilemma, I tried to contact as many knowledgeable people as I could and they were all surprised at the 40 years, but had little to recommend at this point. One tax lawyer suggested that considering the possibility it will be dismissed and cost of legal involvement, I should just gather up the information I have, send it in, and see what Michigan does with it. Then call him back if needed. So thats the plan. In the meantime, I also finally called the Michigan tax enforcement division, and the even the guy there sounded a little surprised, and promised to call back. But, that was a over a week ago.

I'll re-post to end the thread when Michigan replies, probably sometime next year.
Reply With Quote
  #14  
Old 02-04-2019, 06:37 PM
Langt Langt is offline
 
Join Date: Apr 2018
Location: Lambertville, MI
Posts: 9
Default Michigan Use tax after 40 years -- final resolution

Well, I always say "All's well that ends", thinking more than that is just being fussy. However, in this case, it ends well too.

I sent Michigan the forms they wanted, reasons why we "believe" the original sales/use tax was paid, and proved the airplane has been in and registered in Michigan for 40 years, with no changes. (about 35 pages)

I got an Email back today (maybe letter to follow??) saying they are going no further with it and no additional tax will be levied. HURRAY!!!!

Lesson: Pay your state use tax and keep your records. This outcome may be the only reasonable one, yet I can't help but think we were very fortunate.

Ted
Reply With Quote
  #15  
Old 02-04-2019, 06:59 PM
Langt Langt is offline
 
Join Date: Apr 2018
Location: Lambertville, MI
Posts: 9
Default

By the way -- Thanks to everybody who offered advice! I was pretty worried when this first started.

To Gil Alexander -- the FAA records you recommended were really key. I couldn't use the FAA bills of sale directly for prices, but they showed we got it from a regular dealer in 1978 and the records provided other stuff like loan agreements. These helped establish the value of the airplane before my club bought it.

Ted
Reply With Quote
  #16  
Old 02-04-2019, 11:41 PM
az_gila's Avatar
az_gila az_gila is offline
 
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: 57AZ - NW Tucson area
Posts: 9,897
Smile

Quote:
Originally Posted by Langt View Post
By the way -- Thanks to everybody who offered advice! I was pretty worried when this first started.

To Gil Alexander -- the FAA records you recommended were really key. I couldn't use the FAA bills of sale directly for prices, but they showed we got it from a regular dealer in 1978 and the records provided other stuff like loan agreements. These helped establish the value of the airplane before my club bought it.

Ted
Glad it helped...
__________________
Gil Alexander
EAA Technical Counselor, Airframe Mechanic
Half completed RV-10 QB purchased
RV-6A N61GX - finally flying
Grumman Tiger N12GA - flying
La Cholla Airpark (57AZ) Tucson AZ
Reply With Quote
  #17  
Old 02-06-2019, 10:54 AM
jeffsvan jeffsvan is offline
 
Join Date: Jul 2010
Location: detroit, michigan
Posts: 163
Default

An interesting note on this Michigan tax, is that they do not base it off a bill of sale price $. They evaluate the value of the aircraft and base the tax off of that. I purchased an aircraft in 2007 from a broker in Ohio for a fair market value of $38,500. The broker had originally listed the aircraft for $41,900. State of Michigan tried to tax me at $54k, which is what they felt the aircraft was worth. I send a firm letter and some photos, and after a few weeks they decided to just tax me based on my bill of sale.
__________________
Dues paid for 2018. "The information and help I received from Vans Forum members was priceless!"
Reply With Quote
  #18  
Old 02-07-2019, 07:46 AM
Snowflake's Avatar
Snowflake Snowflake is offline
 
Join Date: Oct 2009
Location: Victoria, BC, Canada
Posts: 3,397
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Langt View Post
I got an Email back today (maybe letter to follow??) saying they are going no further with it and no additional tax will be levied. HURRAY!!!!
I'd be sure to get that in writing on paper with letterhead and a name and signature at the bottom. And keep it in your records so the next time this comes up you're not trying to defend yourself with an email...
__________________
Rob Prior
1996 RV-6 "Tweety" C-FRBP (formerly N196RV)
Reply With Quote
  #19  
Old 02-07-2019, 12:23 PM
longranger's Avatar
longranger longranger is offline
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: 45G, Brighton, MI
Posts: 1,853
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Snowflake View Post
I'd be sure to get that in writing on paper with letterhead and a name and signature at the bottom. And keep it in your records so the next time this comes up you're not trying to defend yourself with an email...
I went through a similar process when I moved my 170 to Michigan a couple of years ago. Once they checked the FAA Aircraft Registry and found that I had owned the airplane since 1982, they sent me an email saying I didnít owe them any sales or use tax on it. Michigan is a very GA friendly state so I just archived the email and went on with life. Since then I only hear from them when the annual registration fee ($1 per 100 lb gross weight) is due.
__________________
Miles (VAF# 1238, Paid up as of 2018)
RV-7 TU 904KM (reserved)
Wings Fitted and Finish Kit on site

Construction Log
Picasa: Empennage Album, Wings Album, Fuselage Album

1955 Cessna 170B flying since 1982

'To get something you never had, you have to do something you never did.' -Unk.
Reply With Quote
Reply


Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

vB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump


All times are GMT -6. The time now is 06:11 AM.


The VAFForums come to you courtesy Delta Romeo, LLC. By viewing and participating in them you agree to build your plane using standardized methods and practices and to fly it safely and in accordance with the laws governing the country you are located in.