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?I don?t know what he is doing up there?.....ATC Controller

Ron Lee

Well Known Member
Yesterday I returned from my first West Coast trip in the RV-6A. The plan was to go to Page AZ to take photos at Antelope Canyon, hike out to the Wave, go to Catalina Island via Big Bear City airport (L35), then up to Fresno to see Yosemite.

The trip out to Page from 00V was uneventful. Of course we have the obligatory Pikes Peak photo on the way out.

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This is a picture of an area in Utah that reveals the rugged nature of the terrain. My opinion is that if you have to land here you will be lucky to survive and have the plane be undamaged. You may never get the plane back.

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Also note that some areas not far west of where I live have limited radar coverage below 17,000’ so flight following is not 100%. I carried some survival gear, water, food, adequate clothing for cold conditions, a sleeping bag, fire starting material and my 406 MHz PLB. The PLB is beside me ready for quick activation if needed.
 
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Part 2: Antelope Canyon

This is an overhead view of the upper Antelope Canyon area. It is not long and the thin opening in the top is what allows enough sunlight in for pictures and the light beams around summertime.

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Several pictures from this trip are below:

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Part 3: The Wave Attempt, Bear Lake, Catalina Island

The next day I tried to get a lottery for the Wave hike but was an hour late due to different time zones (duh). The next day I was there on time but out of over twenty applications only three were selected. On the way back to Page I did stop at another trail to see toadstool formations. This is a red toadstool:

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I decided to blow off getting to the Wave and the next day started the trip to Catalina. My trip took me over the Grand Canyon, Fossil Corridor.

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Then on to Big Bear City where the fuel price was reasonable. This is a gorgeous area and I wonder if LA area folks go there for breakfast flights. I sure would.

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After I left Bear Lake I made a climbing left turn to the west and when I was north of the airport tried to contact LA center (?) to initiate flight following before I got well into the LA basin. I was sent to another frequency. Details of any other frequency changes or “please hold” are not absolute since I had no need to recall that. I did note that trying to make contact was difficult.

It was not until I was already at RV cruise altitude of 12,500’ just north of the Riverside area that I heard a pilot state that he had the aircraft on TCAS. At that time I saw a jet to my 1-2 o’clock above me likely heading to LAX. An ATC person made the comment, “I don’t know what he is doing up there.” Most likely he was referring to me. Soon thereafter I finally got flight following to Catalina and somewhere ATC apologized for not getting back to me sooner.

Once over Catalina I descended. As I turned base to final I saw a Cessna on final below me. I don’t recall hearing him at any time....certainly not on final (nor downwind or base). I made a left 270 to re-enter final and ended up high so I went around and landed.

This is a picture taken during the descent (blue is water) and next is one on the ramp at Catalina.

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Part 4: On to Fresno

I did not spend much time at Catalina since I needed to make a fuel stop and get to Fresno. I climbed a bit over Catalina before contacting LA approach. I was cleared through Class B as I climbed to 10,500’. This is a picture of part of LAX as I passed it off-shore heading north.

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The path north was to Camarillo, Santa Barbara, Monterrey for a T&G then Marina for fuel. I skipped the T&G and stopped at Marina for reasonably cheap fuel. The trip to Fresno (FAT) was uneventful and the only odd part was having to enter left downwind for 29L at 2500’ MSL which is 1200’ above the normal pattern altitude. Since the FBO was at the end of 29L I asked to land long. Tower told me to land normal. Of course it is hard to fly a normal pattern when you start 1200’ higher than normal. Landing long would have made everything faster.

I went to Corporate Aircraft. I had called from Marina to get a rental car which was waiting when I landed. The only concern was that there were no tie-downs despite this on Airnav “Aircraft parking (ramp or tiedown).” They had nice facilities and the service was great.

The next day I went to Yosemite and it was awesome. The waterfalls were very nice. Below are three of the major falls and the Valley view which is best in the afternoon.

Yosemite Falls (lower close and above it Upper). You have to walk towards the falls to the left of the observation deck to get this picture. A bit of low level rock scrambling is required.

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Vernal Falls: Again you have to walk up from the first bridge observation area.

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Below is Bridal Veil falls.

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Valley View: Bridal Veil Falls is visible to the right. El Capitan is to the left and Half Dome is in the distance towards the center.

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The return flight yesterday was from Fresno to 00V via Las Vegas then Page for fuel. I started out flying around the MOAs between Fresno and Las Vegas. Once I was handed off to a military controller I was able to cut through two MOAs which helped. Flying over Las Vegas was not a problem. At Page I had to rethink my normal return path due to forecasted moderate to severe turbulence over the Rockies. I went almost due east and crossed the mountains east of Taos NM at 17,500’. The strategy worked and I did not encounter any turbulence (occasional light) until near Raton NM.

At that time I was abeam the high level mountain wave type clouds. Perhaps it was a coincidence. I was flying around 135 mph indicated from west of Taos until I landed and did have to deal with mountain wave downdrafts almost the entire trip north along the Front Range. I was getting 195-203 knot groundspeeds when eastbound (prior to getting to Taos NM).

I landed in a 18G23 knot crosswind...my highest yet. It was not difficult although the actual touchdown was not as smooth as normal.
 
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Part 5: Post Flight Review

The apparent “incident” trying to establish flight following as I approached the LA basin remains questionable. I don’t recall whether I was not aggressive enough trying to call in the very short transmission openings or if I was put on hold (possible) and forgotten. Since I saw no restrictions on flying at 12,500’, and that is a typical flight altitude for me, I don’t see where that was a bad decision on my part. Flight following...had it happened much sooner...would have provided adequate separation with jets. FSS mentioned the VFR corridors during the preflight briefing but I don’t use those. I fly over Class B.

Going around the MOAs added unnecessary time. I asked the military controller if there was a way to get MOA status on the ground. He stated that if I am VFR I can fly through them then get activity updates from the appropriate controller. So from now on, MOAs are no different than non-MOA airspace. I will continue to use flight following and talk to MOA controllers as appropriate.
 
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Trip

This was an exciting trip and the pictures are exceptional. Thanks much for sharing. We love this country too. Bill
 
Hairy airspace

The apparent ?incident? trying to establish flight following as I approached the LA basin remains questionable. I don?t recall whether I was not agressive enough trying to call in the very short transmission openings or if I was put on hold (possible) and forgotten. Since I saw no restrictions on flying at 12,500?, and that is a typical flight altitude for me, I don?t see where that was a bad decision on my part. Flight following...had it happened much sooner...would have provided adequate separation with jets. FSS mentioned the VFR corridors during the preflight briefing but I don?t use those. I fly over Class B.

Ron,
You are correct that flying over the LA Class B is completely legal because the upper limit is 10,000 feet. But all of the LAX bound arriving aircraft decend through the top of the Class B. If you take a look at the Paradise Four Arrival for LAX you will see that all arrivals from the east and southeast are funneled over the Paradise VOR and then split off onto the 4 ILS approaches and instructed to cross TEJAY intersection (3.7 west of Paradise) "at or above 12000." In that area I prefer to go under the Class B since the bottom is 8 or 9 thousand feet.

John Clark
RV8 N18U "Sunshine"
KSBA
 
Going around the MOAs added unnecessary time. I asked the military controller if there was a way to get MOA status on the ground. He stated that if I am VFR I can fly through them then get activity updates from the appropriate controller. So from now on, MOAs are no different than non-MOA airspace. I will continue to use flight following and talk to MOA controllers as appropriate.

Having spent quite a bit of time flying in MOAs while in the military I acknowledge you can do that. I will not fly in there if the area is in use. I know what goes on in there and I don't have an ejection seat in my RV. Do whatever you want but you must be willing accept an increased risk. It is an error in judgment to assume "MOAs are no different than non-MOA airspace"
 
Spectacular photos!

Sounds like you had quite a trip!

This is very motivational and inspirational!

Thanks!

:) CJ
 
Beautiful pictures...

.....indeed...many thanks.

FWIW, we are smack dab in the middle of a MOA here and fly routinely, any day of the week, spraying crops. We also use the RV for transition training and see many jets go over and around us all the time...for 25 years now!

A controller told us that during local flights to always squawk Mode C since they have even better than TCAS in the Military jets which helps them as well.

Regards,
 
Thank you for the great story and pictures. I am planning a west coast trip and you've given me some great ideas for side trips.

The only think you missed was a side trip to stop off and visit Rosie!
 
memories

Ah, Great write up.
I had to go back and look through my pictures after reading. It reminded me of my trip from Colorado Springs to Death Valley Via Alamosa, Farmington, Grand canyon, and Las Vegas. The trip back was through Page, AZ. Beautiful!

I was in a Cessna 152 at the time, so you can see why all the fuel stops. :D


great photo's.
 
Yesterday I returned from my first West Coast trip in the RV-6A. The plan was to go to Page AZ to take photos at Antelope Canyon, hike out to the Wave, go to Catalina Island via Bear Lake airport, then up to Fresno to see Yosemite.

I'm not familiar with "the Wave". Can you briefly explain what it is?

Thanks,

Karl
 
The apparent ?incident? trying to establish flight following as I approached the LA basin remains questionable. I don?t recall whether I was not agressive enough trying to call in the very short transmission openings or if I was put on hold (possible) and forgotten.

Ron,

Awsome trip write up and photo's! I live in LA, fly out of SMO, but rarely make it up to Big Bear. I'm flying a 172 and the DA makes it tough, but I agree it's a great destination and one I hope to frequent when I finally get my hands on an RV.

SoCal is pretty busy in that area, and it's not uncommon for them to ignore VFR pilots. I'm amazed you got an apology from them, twice I have gotten an annoyed controller who basically told me to stop calling. As stated by someone else the jet traffic inbound for LAX from the east descends into the Class B over Big Bear, so that is why they were a little confused about you being up there. If you check the back of the LA TAC all the jet routes are shown, you can see it on www.skyvector.com.

Next time you're out here let us know, I'd love to have an excuse to hop over to Catalina for a Buffalo Burger and get the chance to drool over an RV.

-John
Planning to build an RV...someday:rolleyes:
 
Ron,
You are correct that flying over the LA Class B is completely legal because the upper limit is 10,000 feet. But all of the LAX bound arriving aircraft decend through the top of the Class B. If you take a look at the Paradise Four Arrival for LAX you will see that all arrivals from the east and southeast are funneled over the Paradise VOR and then split off onto the 4 ILS approaches and instructed to cross TEJAY intersection (3.7 west of Paradise) "at or above 12000." In that area I prefer to go under the Class B since the bottom is 8 or 9 thousand feet.

John Clark
RV8 N18U "Sunshine"
KSBA

Flying over class B airspace east of LA is asking for a shot of adrenalin. I recall 2 incidents, one with a Mooney another with a Cherokee, which probably resulted in the respective pilots reconsidering the wisdom of being there. Sure it is legal, but think about that jet closing on you at 250 knots and having to pull up or down to avoid a collision. At the very least, your wings will get rocked by wake turbulence. It isn't a good situation and I don't have the answer, but I wouldn't go there in an RV.
 
Thanks for the insight into LA jet traffic. My view is that they need to accept my request for flight following so that we can all work together.

I avoid flying where unmonitored VFR traffic is likely to be.
 
I avoid flying where unmonitored VFR traffic is likely to be.

Guess there's no point in me extending to you an invitation to one of our area's fine Saturday morning breakfasts........talk about unmonitored VFR traffic....... :D

Nice trip write-up!
 
Going around the MOAs added unnecessary time. I asked the military controller if there was a way to get MOA status on the ground. He stated that if I am VFR I can fly through them then get activity updates from the appropriate controller. So from now on, MOAs are no different than non-MOA airspace. I will continue to use flight following and talk to MOA controllers as appropriate.

I spent a couple of hours yesterday at a Mid-Air Collision Avoidance briefing conducted by the local air-traffic controllers. The local military controllers took more than half the time, and a good part of that dealt with operations in the local MOA west of Salt Lake (about the size of the state of Virginia). It was a very worthwhile few hours.

Besides all the useful information about what goes on, there were a few stories of close encounters, or of VFR pilots finding themselves in the midst of a bunch of fast jets practicing dogfights -- not fun.

Anyway, the big lesson from the briefing was "talk and squawk". Talk to the controllers (the military controllers while in the MOA) and use your transponder. The transponder alone doesn't cut if because of all the areas where there are mountains that block you from radar coverage.
 
Sam, my point was not well written. Basically I cruise where there is minimal chance of encountering most GA traffic. Why go long distances at 2000-3000 feet AGL when you can well fly above that traffic?

Throw in VFR flight following for whatever added traffic detection it provides and I am happy.

Note the Cessna I saw on final as I was turning base to final. I never heard the guy and I was making proper position reports.

VFR flight corridors? Not for me.
 
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My view is that they need to accept my request for flight following so that we can all work together.

Yep, in a perfect world that'd be nice... but the reality is that the SoCal controllers deal with so much IFR and jet traffic that they just don't always have the time for pop-up flight following requests.

Cool trip report and pics! Back in January I did a similar trip from Houston to Palm Springs... my main targets to see were Big Bear, Chino and Catalina Island. I got all of 'em, plus Flabob, Perris Valley, Santa Paula, and up the PCH to Watsonville. Stopping in at Flabob and Santa Paula (cool little airports!) and buffalo burgers at Catalina were the high points of the trip I think. It was definitely nice to see some actual scenery instead of the same old flatness we have around Houston. Now I wanna go back!
 
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VFR Flight Following near Chicago

My view is that they need to accept my request for flight following so that we can all work together.

Or at least ACKNOWLEDGE your request. If they don't have time to provide VFR Flight Following, they should at least deny your request. I understand ATC is a hectic job, and they don't HAVE to provide radar services.

I found out the hard way in the Chicago sector a few years ago that the controllers there are notorious for ignoring VFR pilots. I don't mind being told "No" but I honestly thought I had a radio problem. My repeated transmissions choked up the airwaves a lot more than if the controller had just said "VFR Flight Following Denied." I finally got the message that I was being given the cold shoulder.

Don
 
Sam, my point was not well written. Basically I cruise where there is minimal chance of encountering most GA traffic. Why go long distances at 2000-3000 feet AGL when you can well fly above that traffic?

Throw in VFR flight following for whatever added traffic detection it provides and I am happy.

Note the Cessna I saw on final as I was turning base to final. I never heard the guy and I was making proper position reports.

VRF flight corridors? Not for me.

I knew what you meant, Ron. :)

But.......if you want some real excitement (that stuff about tanglin' with jets is child's play :D) check out one of the Pancake breakfasts when 30-40 hungry VFR pilots are converging on a single non-towered runway within about twenty minutes. :eek:
 
I know that VFR flight following is not assured. BUT.....doesn't it make sense to have them know where I am and that my altitude is correct to help facilitate traffic flow into LAX? I can even make reasonable changes in altitude/course to help them but only if we are talking.

They knew I was there. TCAS on the aircraft I saw picked me up. I should not have been a hazard even if I were not talking to them.

If I am a bother..just say so. But I will fly where I fly. Cooperate and make things better, or ignore me and have to deal with an uncooperative target.

ATC folks....decide which you like better.
 
Great trip write-up and photos; thanks!

As for ATC being surprised that you were above the Class B, well .... it's not like you weren't trying to get their attention. However, all my time flying with friends through / around the Class B there has been IFR, although 100% in VMC - my friends there report that it's just easier to file than to "pop-up" and ask for FF; having flown across the class B several times, I believe it.

TODR
 
I'll agree with that - on my trips into ADS from west Texas I find it easier to file IFR than deal with VFR flight following. VFR staying out of Class B into ADS is a hassle from my direction (MAF or SJT) simply because it's dead on the far side of the class B from my origin requiring me to make many extra miles to stay clear, and if I'm going to be talking to them anyway I might as well make it IFR where they can't conveniently "drop" me if things get busy.
 
Uncooperative target?

I know that VFR flight following is not assured. BUT.....doesn't it make sense to have them know where I am and that my altitude is correct to help facilitate traffic flow into LAX? I can even make reasonable changes in altitude/course to help them but only if we are talking.

They knew I was there. TCAS on the aircraft I saw picked me up. I should not have been a hazard even if I were not talking to them.

If I am a bother..just say so. But I will fly where I fly. Cooperate and make things better, or ignore me and have to deal with an uncooperative target.

ATC folks....decide which you like better.

I don't think that your admonishment to ATC will have much of an effect. IMHO, if I understand you correctly, taking the attitude that you will fly where you fly could put your fellow pilots, and their passengers, at risk. An airliner could be descending at several thousand fpm approaching Class B and may be at a very high airspeed. TCAS will give precious little time for such an aircraft to avoid a collision.

From my perspective attitude is at least 90% of safety. Like it or not, if you don't "fit in" you will be seen by controllers and other pilots more as an obstruction than as traffic. The ATC system is far too complex and busy to put individual rights in first priority.

As a group we are probably very "independent minded". I think we must all be ever vigilant not to put our "rights" ahead of safety.
 
Class B airspace doesn't extend into outer space

I don't think that your admonishment to ATC will have much of an effect. IMHO, if I understand you correctly, taking the attitude that you will fly where you fly could put your fellow pilots, and their passengers, at risk. .......

I occasionally fly over the Los Angeles Class B. There are operational reasons to do so, such as clouds with Icing to be avoided or smoke a while back during the fires.
ATC does not "like" it. On first call up I typically get a sarcastic response or one of disbelief. Once they realize I am flying over the class B, with or without flight following, they seem to get on with it.
Class B airspace is to protect jet traffic into major airports. They simply do not own the airspace above the class B or outside its confines.
I do not view legitimate use of airspace as putting people in danger. In fact, me using it is normal and reasonable. A controller getting an attitude about it is a safety hazard.
 
I'll agree with that - on my trips into ADS from west Texas I find it easier to file IFR than deal with VFR flight following. VFR staying out of Class B into ADS is a hassle from my direction (MAF or SJT) simply because it's dead on the far side of the class B from my origin requiring me to make many extra miles to stay clear, and if I'm going to be talking to them anyway I might as well make it IFR where they can't conveniently "drop" me if things get busy.
ADS is my home airport and I have to deal with Class B transition frequently. We have surface Class B in about a 180 deg arc, from the NW to the SE.

We normally get only one of three transitions through the Class B:
#1 - Southbound transition: ADS - direct DAL - direct RBD, typically at 2500 ft. This takes us away from the DAL arrivals, that (during flow to the south) come over ADS about 3000 and then arrive DAL rwy 13R/L. If there's flow to the north, we are still separated from DAL arrivals and departures. Rwy 18/36 at DAL is a great landmark since it's paved with blacktop and stands out.

#2 - Westbound Transition: Direct DAL - Direct DFW - then west somewhat on course. DFW overflight is typically 6500. We normally only get this if approach isn't very busy.

#3 - NW Transition: Sometimes you'll get cleared through the N part of the Class B to get in and out of ADS on a NW heading.

Anyway, the point of this is that each Class B has its own favored routes for VFR transition, just as it has its favored IFR arrival routes. These are not intuitively obvious from any chart or any other source that I know of. The routes that are shown on the back of the TACs aren't that useful.

So, you really need local knowledge or controllers that are going to help you in the unfamiliar Class B. In the SoCal area, I doubt you're going to get much help or understanding from the controllers - no fault of theirs, things are just too busy there.

But it kinda chaps my hide that ATC would wonder why you're flying above the Class B. I assume that you are using your transponder with Mode C and flying the appropriate VFR altitude. Other than that, what are you supposed to do? Avoid the Class B entirely like an active restricted area? Do they really want you to go through the Class B when you could go around? Again, it's that local knowledge that might be obvious to them but not to us who aren't local.

I suppose it would be nice if VFR aircraft were able to get some info from ATC about the preferred Class B transition routes - although these are available in some areas - but I don't know how you'd do this.

TODR
 
Yes I was using Mode C transponder at the appropriate VFR altitude. I attempted to establish flight following well before any issues developed but for reasons that I cannot clearly state, it did not happen.

In retrospect, perhaps my initial call to LA center should have mentioned that I would fly over Class B at 12,500'. Maybe that would help. Maybe not. I am of the opinion that the attitude problem may exist within ATC. If they are too busy then solve that problem.

The ATC cooperation leaving Catalina was better. I was cleared through Class B and when LA approach asked if I could turn westbound to allow an airliner to continue its climb, I did. Minimal deviation on my part and we all played nice. That was not hard.

I can't file IFR so I know of no other option than to request flight following as a "pop up" if that term is correct. I don't use flight plans. Flight following is far more useful and the only way I know of to work cooperatively.
 
As a group we are probably very "independent minded". I think we must all be ever vigilant not to put our "rights" ahead of safety.
If flying in accordance with the posted and charted regulations is being "independent minded" and a risk to safety, my suggestion would be to amend the regulations and charts to remove any possible ambiguity between what is allowed and what is expected/unexpected.

If 10k isn't high enough, then the top of the Class B should be made higher.

I don't consider myself as being "independent minded" when I drive 65 mph in a posted 65 mph zone any more that I consider a VFR altitude above the 10k limit of a Class B to be anything other than routine compliance with existing regulations.
 
So Cal TRACON

We were just in flying in So Cal with a friend to look at RV6A' to purchase. Flagstaff - Chino -Cable-San Diego-Flagstaff all in one day(and it takes a while in a 182). I have flown with SOCal, PHX and LAS tracon many times but I think So CAL is the best overall. These are guys and gals are good and professional. There is a way to talk on approach to get what you want even VFR. Sound like a pro and preface the initial by "goodmorning" or "goodafternoon" -say what you want fast and clear and you will get what you want almost every time. There was certainly a bit off traffic to look out for within the corridors of SO Cal.
- Some great great pics, Looks like a great trip- Makes me miss the John Muer Trail even more, I need to get up there.
 
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Denver Class B top is at 12,000' I believe but the ground is higher. I fly over it too. When I flew from Ft Pierce FL to Crystal River FL I cruised at 10,500' if I recall correctly. I fly high for safety and operational reasons.
 
...I do not view legitimate use of airspace as putting people in danger. In fact, me using it is normal and reasonable. A controller getting an attitude about it is a safety hazard.

I couldn't agree more. Observe the Mode C veil and fly where you want outside of the Class B. If it were immorale, imprudent or unsafe you can be sure the FAA would make it illegal.

Jekyll
 
Yes I was using Mode C transponder at the appropriate VFR altitude. I attempted to establish flight following well before any issues developed but for reasons that I cannot clearly state, it did not happen.

In retrospect, perhaps my initial call to LA center should have mentioned that I would fly over Class B at 12,500'. Maybe that would help. Maybe not. I am of the opinion that the attitude problem may exist within ATC. If they are too busy then solve that problem.........

Ron, your photo record of the trip is excellent.....a great travel log for those who can not do it themselves.

Generally speaking, ATC is staffed for the management of IFR traffic, some parts of the country perhaps better than others. VFR flight following is a supplemental benefit for VFR pilots and not available everywhere everyday. It can not be relied upon even after getting into the system - a flight can fall through the cracks when things get busy. I've had it happen enough times, I've stopped using it, especially around busy class B airports. I get a better feeling just avoiding those areas if at all possible rather than being a part of the problem, which is how some controllers view VFR operations when things get really busy.

Flying through the SOCAL area is not fun IFR or VFR, there's simply too much traffic and not enough airspace. The approach into SNA from the east going by the Riverside area at 6000 feet was always an attention getter on a VFR day. After a few near misses, I started slowing from 250 much earlier than required simply to have a better chance to see and avoid if necessary. The controllers can not point out every VFR flight on their scope. Departing on such a day one can not relax until out of FL180. The area is a **** shoot for pilots when its clear, IMHO.

Your experience is not unusual and probably more the norm than not. Overall, you did a good job - you did not get run over or run into anyone.
 
El Lay Basin

Flying through the SOCAL area is not fun IFR or VFR, there's simply too much traffic and not enough airspace. The approach into SNA from the east going by the Riverside area at 6000 feet was always an attention getter on a VFR day. After a few near misses, I started slowing from 250 much earlier than required simply to have a better chance to see and avoid if necessary. The controllers can not point out every VFR flight on their scope. Departing on such a day one can not relax until out of FL180. The area is a **** shoot for pilots when its clear, IMHO.

David, I am reminded of an old line from my days on the line at a regional based at LAX. "The best weather for flying in the basin is an 800 ft. ceiling and a mile viz." :)

John Clark
RV8 N18U "Sunshine"
KSBA
 
If flying in accordance with the posted and charted regulations is being "independent minded" and a risk to safety, my suggestion would be to amend the regulations and charts to remove any possible ambiguity between what is allowed and what is expected/unexpected.

If 10k isn't high enough, then the top of the Class B should be made higher.

I don't consider myself as being "independent minded" when I drive 65 mph in a posted 65 mph zone any more that I consider a VFR altitude above the 10k limit of a Class B to be anything other than routine compliance with existing regulations.

My post was intended to be a gentle reminder that one must often consider more than the regulations to achieve a prudent level of safety. Good judgement often dictates higher minimums than do the FAR's. You can drive your car at 65mph in a hard driving rain and be within the speed limit - but it might not be good judgement. You can probably legally ride your bicycle on a lot of busy streets at rush hour - but it might not be prudent. The brand new IFR pilot can fly right into the busiest airport and right down to published minimums with wet ink on his ticket and be legal - but I would caution against that too.

I have a problem only with "I will fly where I will fly" not with the legal use of airspace and I don't suggest that one should never overfly class B airspace.

Just trying to share some of what I have learned in 43 years and 25K hours. No offense intended.
 
Jim, the reality is that if I avoided all airspace where I might interact with commercial traffic I could not even fly 2500' AGL over my airport. I use flight following/traffic advisories for several reasons...one is to coexist with commercial traffic.

But if ATC blows me off, then that cooperation won't happen.
 
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No offense intended.
None taken.

My point is that it makes more sense for the Feds to institute the traffic controls that they deem necessary and for us to fly within those constraints than it does for us to try to guess what they meant, or what may or may not be safe. If they say that they need 10k over a Class B, I'm inclined to take them at their word. If the situation demamds 11k, then they should say so. I'm perfectly willing to work with them if they so choose, or around them if not. I just don't want to be put in the position of trying to determine if I am inadvertantly working against them by following the rules that they put in place.

Ambiguity has no place in airspace restrictions.
 
None of this is new...

While reading this thread I kept having deja vu moments. Here is a NASA ASRS report written in 1989 that is a good read. Note that it was a TCA then, now class 'B' but the issues sound familiar.

http://tinyurl.com/yqa4ly

John Clark
FAAST Team Member
RV8 N18U "Sunshine"
KSBA
 
Good read John. The comment on page 8(?) that the system may be broken seems accurate. It has been almost 20 years since that report. Many of the GA attitudes discussed are just as applicable today. Has anything been done to make things better?
 
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Ron,

In one post you mention you "can't file IFR". In another you mention you want to avoid VFR traffic. I understand your thinking. You are correct it's possible to take the road less traveled and operate legally in a ways 99% of the traffic does not ( MOAs, over Class B, etc ). It's great that you are an independent thinker and can visualize outside the box. I caution you however, your logic increases significantly the chance of making a name for yourself you might not like. If you want to participate with ATC do whatever you need so you can file IFR. That way you won't have to keep knocking on the door trying to get invited to the party. It won't be free much longer so you might as well get while the gettin's good. ;)
 
I can't file IFR because I do not have an instrument rating. To say that I must get one to fly over Class B does not make sense. As the report provided earlier today suggests, my case in hardly unique. Sounds like ATC needs to be fixed or airspace modified.

I do avoid the majority of conflicts with other VFR aircraft by flying above them

Last weekend I flew up to NW Denver area OVER then through Class B. Other guys flew around 9500' and came very close to another aircraft.
 
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This is an odd discussion.

Some time back a VFR SEL (Charokee I think) caught up to and ran down an airliner in SoCal. The solution was to mandate mode-C transponders in all aircraft with electrical systems.

All those mode-C transponders were supposed to solve all these traffic conflicts.
 
You are right if you mean airspace. But fixing ATC I see accepting more VFR flight following. Maybe you mention "Over Class B" on initial callup.
 
You are right if you mean airspace. But fixing ATC I see accepting more VFR flight following.
That kind of fix would require more controllers, which would cost money. Are you prepared to pony up some user fees to pay for it? I bet not.
 
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