The Journey: RV-6 or Citabria?

Please indulge me. I?m a low time pilot, about 90 hrs. While I?ve wanted to be a pilot since a child, I could never justify the cost/benefit ratio for my family Then, at the age of 46, I learned about RVs and I decided I couldn?t justify putting off getting my PPL any longer (midlife crisis?, whatever). I was at a point where finances and career schedule allowed it. I commuted 110 miles one way to Driggs, ID for most of my PPL (That?s another story and part of the cost of living in a sparsely populated area of Wyoming, my choice). Now I?ve got my PPL, but the 172 I trained in (or any other rental) is no longer available locally. I need to buy a plane!
Fun, easy, and ?economical? to fly are important parts of my mission. Flying with my 16 yr old son while he is still at home is a MUST in the mission. He is currently 6?-1?/210#, increasing daily. So I don?t think the 4 would work for me at this time. An 8 would be great, but we couldn?t build one before he moves on. And my current price range for a flying plane is $40k to $65K. Also, along with all that, I want something that will help me learn to be a better pilot. Longer cross country (WY to TX) would be an eventual but currently lower priority in the mission. In a few yrs I think building will fit into the journey. But not right now.
A 6 seems to fit the mission. But, at this stage of my flying experience, I wonder if I would be biting off more than I could chew? I?ve seen Citabrias mentioned a lot on this site. After readiing about them they seem like they might fit most of the mission and be a good learning step. I don?t currently have TD training and there is no training available locally. But I?ll find a way to get that done.
So, to sum it all up, I guess what I?m asking: is a Citabria a better first step, build/buy an RV later? Or should I jump right into an RV6?

Dave,

It is all about training. Buy the six, pay the insurance, and get some good training.

The Citabria is a good plane but sloooowwww.

The -6 has a good reputation and will get across the state for the same fuel burn as a 150 HP Citabria +/-.

If you want the RV, get the RV and you will never look back.

I have a little time in a Citab and much more time in a 6..

We are currently in a situation similar to yours.. We are thinking about trading the 6 our for a Decathlon, but for different reasons than you mention..

I absolutely love the 6 and the more I fly it, the more I enjoy it.. I however, want something I can progress further into aerobatics with, and that is why we are looking into a Decathlon..

For your purposes, I would recommend you just go fly the things.. See which one you like better..

As far as your son, I am 6'3", 250 and I have zero problems getting in the 6..

I have a lot of time in both Citabrias and RVs. If you want a fun airplane that will really teach you how to fly. Buy a nice Citabria or Decathalon and get some good basic aerobatic/tailwheel training. The Decathalon is a lot faster than the Citabria and a better aerobatic mount. If you find the right one you can fly it a year or two and then sell it for about what you paid for it and go on to the RV. The RV on the other hand is a very docile taildragger with great handling characteristics and a great cross country machine. Although they are good aerobatic mounts they are not great aerobatic teaching machines as they get going very fast very quickly going downhill and don't allow the instructor to let you get very deep into a botched maneuver before taking it. So pick the plane to fulfill your mission. If you think you want to do cross country mostly by all means get the RV.

Travel?

If you are really thinking of ever flying from Wyoming to Texas the Citabrias would punish you in fuel and speed. It is quite possible to get a good RV-6A or RV-6 for $65,000 or less. The price posted is RARELY the price achieved. With fuel going up, unfortunately, the airplane industry will suffer which will probably translate into lower prices for aircraft. That is the good news for a buyer. The downside and one of the reasons people sell is that if you get insurance and a hanger the base cost is in the 4000 to 5000 range annually just to park it. Fuel burn is 8 or so gallons per hour. Fuel costs about $1.00/gal more than auto fuel (rough estimate). So for fuel in a year flying 100 hours is 800 gallons at $5.00/gal (conservative estimate) or $4000 in fuel. An RV will at least gobble up some real estate for that price!
My vote would be to take your son and look at some RV's. Look at the details. Fiberglass, is it well finished and are all the seams even? When you move the controls does anything bind or hit something it shouldn't? take someone that knows RV's to look with you if you don't feel comfortable doing it alone. Do all the radios and electronics work?
Another up side to an RV is that you may do the work yourself. The (annual) conditional inspection will need to be signed off by an A&P but other work may be done by you.
The RV's land as easily as a Cessna. You will need to get "transitional training" which amounts to getting one of the RV type instructors to give you training. http://www.rvtraining.com/ is one place to get friendly and excellent training an be "transitioned in two days for most pilots.
Best wishes for your decision. Though I vote RV that works for me. Any decision you make will be a good one.

yakdriver said:

The RV on the other hand is a very docile taildragger with great handling characteristics and a great cross country machine. Although they are good aerobatic mounts they are not great aerobatic teaching machines as they get going very fast very quickly going downhill and don't allow the instructor to let you get very deep into a botched maneuver before taking it. So pick the plane to fulfill your mission. .

Click to expand...

That is what we have found out.. These things build speed pretty aggressively in the down hill.. We are somewhat contemplating a 10 for going places and a Decathlon for playing...

I did fine in the back of my -4 for over an hour at 6'2" 200 FWIW. Just throwing it out there as they're less money than the -6 and I love the centerline seating. Try one out in your search.

And I'll definately say go RV if you expect to do any XC, with a headwind it's painful watching cars pass you at 8-10 gallons an hour as you'll experience in the Citabria.

i am going thru the same senario. but i waited too long and my son has moved away. i just bought a citabria while the rv7 is slowly becoming an airplane. don't wait like i did. i pick up my citabria next week, but just had knee surgery friday and don't know when or if i will beable to fly it. so don't wait just do it!
but we did have fun in my 172 i sold last week. so it wasn't a total loss. my knee will be ok in a month or i will get a new one. then i will be able to fly again and i will fly down to my sons place and do some more flying if if if if if
nothing else happens.
don't wait! my wife bought me a t shirt that says DO IT! i thought it meant something else but........ lol
fred
leaving in 20 min to my eaa chapters flyin breakfast, driving a car.

hmmm, the only bad choice....

Thanks for the response. Sounds like the only bad choice is not making a choice. I think for now I need to find a way to get TD instruction and the possibility of training in whatever plane I end up with. That, and figure out how I would get a plane home after buying one.
A 4 was mentioned. They look like a lot of bang for the buck and a lot of fun. And my wife fit's Smokey's description of the 120# GIB. However, I'm not confident my TD skills will progress fast enough to feel comfy with my 210-220 lb son in back of a 4. So far I have only seen 2 RVs in person: an 8 and a 6. I've done searches looking for a 4 around here. However, it doesn't look like there are any in WY at this time. I'ld like to at least sit in one before I pursue buying. I'll stumble across one sometime.

If one of your intended missions is cross country, go with the RV. A buddy has a Decathlon and I've flown as his wingman on a couple of short cross country trips. He's running at cruise power, probably buring 8 gph at 100knots and my RV-6 is coasting along at 1700 RPM and 17" of manifold pressure, and I still need to do the occasional barrell roll or series of S turns to stay behind him. I have no idea what my power setting is on those flights, but I bet the engine is burning well under 5 gph. Push the RV up to 8 GPH and it goes 160 knots.

So, the RV will get you there faster and for less gas. In addition, the RV's performance advantage will let you climb up above the haze layer to get a good look at convective activity. This is extremely helpful in the summer when you are avoiding buildups.

And, with the RV, if you can't pick through convective stuff, the extra speed allows you to deviate around it.

Just my $0.02...

RV-4 nearby.....for the West it is pretty close!

Idaho Meridian, Crandlemire,Scotty 208.371.7530 4 Flying N-4ZV @ KEUL

Close to Boise and probably the closest to you is this RV-4. It would be worth the trip to at least sit in it. They are not big but they are nice flying machines. I got Scotty's address from the white pages but I would not hesitate to give him a call and ask. There is one in Ogden also which, for the West, is close:

Utah Ogden, Eccles,Royal 801.394.0171 4 Flying N49RE @ KOGD

Go for an RV!

I did my PPL in a Citabria 7ECA and two years later (last July) did first flight of my -6, with about 110 TT at the time. I now have 112 hours on my -6 and love every minute of it.

My -6 is easier to fly than the Citabria, and to me, a lot more fun! Go for an RV!

Heinrich Gerhardt
RV-6, flying

Insurance and wheel landings

One thing to consider is insurance. The Citabria was extremely expensive for a low time TG pilot as my partner found out- I think the quote was $8000 after five hours TD sign off ?? He decided to self insure for 15 hours or so. Also a second is prop clearance in some RVs when practicing wheel landings. The 6 gear is a little more spring and less prop clearance than the Citabria. I like the Citabria for TD training as opposed to the C 180 and other TG’s. It’s a pussy cat kinda like the RV. The RV is the best all around.
My .4$ (inflation)

Brad

You were most right in saying that the only bad choice is no choice. I am building a Rocket and bought a Decathlon to fly while building. My only regret is that I didn't but the Decathlon sooner. I first wanted to buy an RV-4 or -8; and found that I could not insure it. This was part of my decision to go with the Decathlon. I routinely fly with RV buddies and on short trips they are always amazed at how little time they beat me by and sometimes that I beat them (I always launch first). My son is in college and having the Decathlon has allowed us to fly together during the summer; had I waited for my Rocket to fly we would have missed that opportunity altogether. A lot like your situation. I do know the Decathlon is faster than the Citabria; that could weigh in to a decision. And you cannot beat a Decathlon / Citabria to learn and develop piloting skills. Whichever way you go, I'm pretty sure you'll enjoy it !!!

Simple - buy a Citabria now and start an RV7/8 project.

You enjoy a superb aeroplane that can turn you upside down, enjoy strip flying, cross country in slow comfort but is fun and sellable.

Then the 7/8 would be a good family excercise, give focus to what you really want and eventually would be a superb transition from an excellent aeroplane to a superbly excellent aeroplane.

I have a Supercub and a RV8. Trust me.. sell the house and buy both:]

Before making a serious investment in an RV-4 get your son to sit in the back seat and ask him if he could stay in that position for a 1 to 3 hour cross country.

Citabria vs RV

My wife and I had a Citabria for several years before we moved into the RV world. The annuals were eating our lunch; aerobatic a/c get used pretty hard. Having flown coast to coast in both, I'd have to say there's absolutely no comparison for cross-country. We make it from AZ to NC in a day in the RV, and it can take three in a Citabria. Right now we have a 7AC Champ to putt around in, and use the RV to get places. For all-round use, the RV wins hands down. The RV is a lot less demanding to fly, if you have a wing leveler or autopilot. Cross-country in a Citabria turns into a long exercise in aerobics in any kind of turbulence.

Lots of great advice!

Thanks for all the great advice. I think I've 1st got to find some TD training. The closest I've found so far is over in Afton, 120 mile drive. Would have been only a 50 mile flight if I still had a rental available. 2nd, I need to keep flying on some sort of regular basis so my newly acquired skills don't get to rusty while I learn the process of finding/inspecting/buying a plane. Closest rental is also about 120 mile drive. I'll be out of town the next couple of weeks so that will defer the process.
Several of you reminded me not to bypass consideration of a 4. The one mentioned in ID is a 450 mile drive from here. Mostly, it's the CG issue with heavy passenger I've read about that concerns me for now. I think I'll save the 4 as another step later in the journey. I'm in Lubbock TX a couple of times/yr and I think there are several around the area. Maybe we can try on one of those sometime. Thanks again!

Dave,
If you are ever in Sheridan, I have a 6 you can sit in. We might even go fly. I also have a 4 that is 90% done if you want to try that on for size.

Pros and Cons

Here is the way I see the "pros & cons"
The Decathlon and Citabria wins in the aerobatics and un-improved airfield operations categories. The RV (IMHO) is the best all-around plane that you will find. You can go fast, go high, and do the work yourself. The RV handles grass and dirt runways just fine, such as Johnson Creek, and Big Creek, ID. I think you and your son would enjoy being able to jump in and explore the many fun places that are within range of a tank of fuel.
You have a great resource for information on buying, flying, and maintaining the RV right here on this site. The Citabria would limit you to being able to do very simple tasks.
As has already been stated, there are many RV's available in your price range. With Pinedale at 7100', I would look for an RV with an O-360 for the extra performance during the summer months. However, you would find that the O-320 will give more than adequate performance.
I also agree that the RV ground handling characteristics are much more docile than one would expect. In addition to my -6, I also own an Piper PA-20, and the RV is much more forgiving of temporary lapses of concentration while committing aviation. However, if you work to be proficient at the basic flying skills you will have no problem with either plane. Ground clearance on the RV could be a factor if one seriously botched a wheel landing.
With regard to the RV-4, does your son want to spend hours looking at the back of your head, and do you want to miss being able to share an "RV grin" during the entire flight? Yep, shameless plug for the -6!

Practically neighbors!

Wow, wyoflyer. You're only a couple of mtn ranges away! Actually, I am in Sheridan once in a while. My oldest daughter just graduated from college there and plans to stay on for awhile. She loves Sheridan (but I think it has more to do with the young man she's been hanging around with). When I had a plane available I flew over a few times just for the day. I'll look you up next time I'm coming that direction. I hope it's warmer over there than it is here. I can live with the occasional snow in June. But day after day is wearing on me.

On second thought, maybe a 6 would be better than the -4 since you're so low time. The aft cg with a passenger makes the 4 a little more difficult in the landing at least for me (40rv hours 300tt). I flew with a 200 pound cfi yesterday and all my landings were safe but only 1 of 6 was actually pretty. While we were post flighting a buddy also with a 4 came by and we talkied. He asked the cfi what his wt was and said with no shame that 200 pds is his back seat limit. This guy has more RV experience than me, maybe a little more conservative than me, but still interresting that he's set that limit even if cg is within limits.

Just thinking out loud as I hadn't considered your low time in my 1st post saying not to exclude the -4