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Cross Country Observations

f1rocket

f1rocket

Well Known Member
Cross Country Observations - RV-12

For those who have been following along, you know I am half way through my 4,400 nm journey and adventure to get my -12 painted. I spent four days in the airplane traveling from Indiana down through New Mexico to California and then up to Oregon, where it is now in primer as I write this. I have a couple observations regarding the cross country performance of the -12 that might be of interest to other owners. I invite others to share their experience as well.

1. You have to plan fuel stops very carefully. Since I have been heading West most of the time, the winds are against me. It doesn't take much in the way of headwinds different than forecast to cause me to fall short of my target airport. Especially flying in the Southwest, sometimes airports are few and far between.

2. I wish I had more climb performance but I don't want to give back any cruise speed. It takes a long time and a lot of fuel to get on top of turbulence or clouds.

3. Love the Dynon, but I wish it allowed me to manage my fuel to destination better. It gives me time to destination, but it doesn't tell me the fuel remaining when I get there. I have to switch to the engine display to get that and only when the destination is the final waypoint. I need to find out from Dynon whether there is something in the set up that I can do to get that.

4. I find that I hide the flight display when the AP is engaged and I use the larger map. I'd like to move the side bar info from that flight display to the map display. I end up pushing a lot of buttons on the Dynon.

5. The seats are very comfortable. I have the comfor foam upgrade and I highly recommend it. Also, I like to stretch out my legs into the passenger footwell at times so I'm diggin the lack of a center console.

6. Love the visibility. This airplane is a lot of fun to fly. Little slower than what I'm used to, but hey, at least I'm still flying.

7. The electric fuel pump is an issue. I've heard from too many other builders about problems and failures. Mine failed in less than 25 hours. I may have been guilty of running it too much when there wasn't any fuel in the line, which is a no-no, so I will be more careful with the second one. On my airplane, the engine will not run WOT at 8,500 MSL on just the engine driven pump. I think I had less than 10 gallons in the tank at the time so this may contribute to the wild pressure fluxuations.

8. For long flights, the lack of sound quality when playing music through the intercom is annoying. I think I have everything adjusted right but maybe I need to do more. There's not much base and the treble is tinny. It gets to me after a couple of hours. Minor point but I love to listen to music while flying so this a pain for me. Yes, I have stereo headsets and yes, they are set to stereo and not mono.

9. Can't reach anything in the baggage area in flight. If it's not next to me, then forget it. I'm either too big or too inflexible (or both :D)

10. The wing walk material is too small on the wings. I find that I am frequently stepping further aft than the aft edge of the material. I will fix that when it gets painted. I'll also be removing the round head rivets underneath and replacing them with countersunk rivets for a smooth wing walk.

That's enough for now. I have a few others but they are mostly Dynon related. I don't want anyone to take my observations out of context. They are not meant to be criticisms of the design or the avionics, just stuff I'm finding out as I actually use the airplane. These are just my observations and they may not be applicable to the way you use your -12. I really love my -12 and the Rotax has been great. I run it at 5400 to 5500 all the time. Fuel burn is a little above 5 gallons per hour.

Regarding the Dynon stuff, I'd love to hear from others on how you use it and whether you've experienced any of the same things? Thanks.
 
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Randy,
Great information. Getting your thoughts on this is information I can use in planning trips. I am really interested in the questions you have on the Dynon. I am on the fence with Dynon or Garmin and you are asking questions that could help me decide which way to go.
Thanks. It sounds like a fun trip - and you get your plane painted!
 
Thank you

Thank you for these observations. You're an inspiration to me, one of the people that convinced me to put my -9A tail in storage and start on a -12. Watching your speedy progress helped me believe that I'd have a finished airplane in half the time by making the switch. I'm now just finishing up the tail cone - just the top skin to go.
 
Fuel remaining at each waypoint

Does the RV12 have a fuel computer setup? If so, check the Pilot Users Guide page 5-6 for fuel at waypoint:

"The Fuel at Waypoint info item displays how much fuel will remain at the next waypoint. This info item uses the current HSI navigation source for waypoint information, and only displays information when there is a waypoint being navigated to. It assumes you are flying directly at the waypoint and does not adjust for non-direct flights.
The Fuel Range info item displays the distance the aircraft can travel at its current GPS ground speed before it is out of fuel."

This is a setup item on the engine page, see Installation Manual for how-to.
 
You should not need the electric fuel pump to cruise straight and level at 8500'. I would consider this a safety of flight issue, and look into it more.
 
Bob'sRV6A said:
Does the RV12 have a fuel computer setup? If so, check the Pilot Users Guide page 5-6 for fuel at waypoint:

"The Fuel at Waypoint info item displays how much fuel will remain at the next waypoint. This info item uses the current HSI navigation source for waypoint information, and only displays information when there is a waypoint being navigated to. It assumes you are flying directly at the waypoint and does not adjust for non-direct flights.
The Fuel Range info item displays the distance the aircraft can travel at its current GPS ground speed before it is out of fuel."

This is a setup item on the engine page, see Installation Manual for how-to.
Click to expand...

Yes, I have that. The problem is that it's only displayed on the Engine Info page when it is half or full screen. Since I rarely have it up in that size, I have to push buttons to get it. The problem is that I'm not interested in the WP fuel on a multi-leg flight plan. I want to know if I'll have enough fuel to get to the end and unless the final WP is my destination, I can't find the information anywhere at all, that I am aware. Hopefully I'm wrong.
 
TThurston said:
Thank you for these observations. You're an inspiration to me, one of the people that convinced me to put my -9A tail in storage and start on a -12. Watching your speedy progress helped me believe that I'd have a finished airplane in half the time by making the switch. I'm now just finishing up the tail cone - just the top skin to go.
Click to expand...

Thanks. I don't know how much of an inspiration I am. I'm just trying to enjoy as much of life as I can while I still can.
 
rockwoodrv9 said:
Randy,
Great information. Getting your thoughts on this is information I can use in planning trips. I am really interested in the questions you have on the Dynon. I am on the fence with Dynon or Garmin and you are asking questions that could help me decide which way to go.
Thanks. It sounds like a fun trip - and you get your plane painted!
Click to expand...

I think the Dynon is a great piece of gear and the support has been terrific. The user manual is not as user-friendly as it could be IMO. I have to really dig to find what I'm looking for but it's usually in there somewhere. They appear to be very responsive to customer feedback. All this is probably more than what you can reasonably expect from Garmin, but I can't say for sure. Just my opinion.

It's also a little ironic that just as my airplane is being painted by John Stahr, Sport Aviation came out with a big article on his work. It's a great article and the recognition is richly deserved by John. He is a lot of fun to work with and his talents are amazing to me. He's got stull just laying around that blows my mind in terms of his artistic skill, composition, and ability to execute.
 
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BobTurner said:
You should not need the electric fuel pump to cruise straight and level at 8500'. I would consider this a safety of flight issue, and look into it more.
Click to expand...

I agree with Bob.
We've had that engine at 11,500 with no fuel flow issues.
Shouldn't need the electric pump for the engine to run.
 
BobTurner said:
You should not need the electric fuel pump to cruise straight and level at 8500'. I would consider this a safety of flight issue, and look into it more.
Click to expand...

Question.....has anyone checked if there is x psi flow restriction thru a powered off fuel pump? I have been chewing on putting a one-way check valve by-pass around my fuel pump (will have to wait till after certification).. Just wondering, as I too, am looking at electrical power management....so second 10" screen can be done.
 
Great report and thread, Randy. Keep up the info. You might have to drop in on Van's to probe the fuel pump issue. Just a thought, since you are in Oregon. :rolleyes:
 
f1rocket said:
7. The electric fuel pump is an issue. I've heard from too many other builders about problems and failures.
Click to expand...

Please provide more details regarding this statement. (PM me if you prefer).
I am not aware of any reported electric pump failures on RV-12's.

BTW, if your engine won't stay running with the elect pump shut off, you either replaced your failed one with the wrong part #, or you have a serious fuel system problem that would be corrected before you fly any more.
Did you do the PAP fuel flow test before your first flight?
 
PM sent.

I wasn't very clear. I didn't mean to imply that my engine won't stay running with the replacement pump. I was trying to say that it wouldn't stay running with the FAILED pump and WOT at 8500 MSL with less than 10 gallons of fuel in the tank. I suspect that if may have to do with less head pressure from the fuel in the tank and the failure mode of the pump. I wish I'd saved the dang thing so it could be looked at. I'll probably swing by Van's next week Thursday or Friday depending upon the paint schedule.

BTW, just because I've been asked several times now, the pump I bought from NAPA sure appeared to be the exact same pump. It had the same numbers stamped on it, same decal on the side, same fittings, same size, same electrical wires, etc. Everything now is working as it should. I haven't tried flying with the fuse pulled on it, but I will the next time I go fly.

Of course I did the fuel flow test. It exceeded the benchmark as I recall. Van's has the PAP. I mailed it in a couple of weeks ago.

Also to recap, here are the facts of what happened.

1. Electric pump failed over Missouri. I noticed low fuel pressure fluxuations but no engine issues. Continued on,

2. About 20 minutes later, the pressures began to swing more and dip to zero for an instant as it moved up and down.

3. Few minutes later, the engine stumbled badly two times in quick succession, almost to the point of stopping the engine.

4. I cut engine power and landed without incident and the engine did not stumble for the remainder of the flight.

PM me if you'd like more details.
 
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Randy,

I agree with guys who say you should not need the electric fuel pump for WOT. I live in Arizona and routinely cruise from 8500 to 12500 (I have a medical and can exercise PPL privileges) on just the engine driven pump.

As far as the audio is concerned I went to a Bose A20 with direct input. It sounds great (of course 35 years in steam power plants hasn't improved my hearing!)

Ric,

If you put in a check valve remember that it could stick open which might cause fuel starvation. I think it is pretty standard to put the boost and engine driven pumps in series.

Rich
 
A few thoughts about your thoughts!

f1rocket said:
For those who have been following along, you know I am half way through my 4,400 nm journey and adventure to get my -12 painted. I spent four days in the airplane traveling from Indiana down through New Mexico to California and then up to Oregon, where it is now in primer as I write this. I have a couple observations regarding the cross country performance of the -12 that might be of interest to other owners. I invite others to share their experience as well.

1. You have to plan fuel stops very carefully. Since I have been heading West most of the time, the winds are against me. It doesn't take much in the way of headwinds different than forecast to cause me to fall short of my target airport. Especially flying in the Southwest, sometimes airports are few and far between.

2. I wish I had more climb performance but I don't want to give back any cruise speed. It takes a long time and a lot of fuel to get on top of turbulence or clouds.

3. Love the Dynon, but I wish it allowed me to manage my fuel to destination better. It gives me time to destination, but it doesn't tell me the fuel remaining when I get there. I have to switch to the engine display to get that and only when the destination is the final waypoint. I need to find out from Dynon whether there is something in the set up that I can do to get that.

4. I find that I hide the flight display when the AP is engaged and I use the larger map. I'd like to move the side bar info from that flight display to the map display. I end up pushing a lot of buttons on the Dynon.

5. The seats are very comfortable. I have the comfor foam upgrade and I highly recommend it. Also, I like to stretch out my legs into the passenger footwell at times so I'm diggin the lack of a center console.

6. Love the visibility. This airplane is a lot of fun to fly. Little slower than what I'm used to, but hey, at least I'm still flying.


7. The electric fuel pump is an issue. I've heard from too many other builders about problems and failures. Mine failed in less than 25 hours. I may have been guilty of running it too much when there wasn't any fuel in the line, which is a no-no, so I will be more careful with the second one. On my airplane, the engine will not run WOT at 8,500 MSL on just the engine driven pump. I think I had less than 10 gallons in the tank at the time so this may contribute to the wild pressure fluctuations.

8. For long flights, the lack of sound quality when playing music through the intercom is annoying. I think I have everything adjusted right but maybe I need to do more. There's not much base and the treble is tinny. It gets to me after a couple of hours. Minor point but I love to listen to music while flying so this a pain for me. Yes, I have stereo headsets and yes, they are set to stereo and not mono.


9. Can't reach anything in the baggage area in flight. If it's not next to me, then forget it. I'm either too big or too inflexible (or both :D)

10. The wing walk material is too small on the wings. I find that I am frequently stepping further aft than the aft edge of the material. I will fix that when it gets painted. I'll also be removing the round head rivets underneath and replacing them with countersunk rivets for a smooth wing walk.

That's enough for now. I have a few others but they are mostly Dynon related. I don't want anyone to take my observations out of context. They are not meant to be criticisms of the design or the avionics, just stuff I'm finding out as I actually use the airplane. These are just my observations and they'll may not be applicable to the way you use your -12. I really love my -12 and the Rotax has been great. I run it at 5400 to 5500 all the time. Fuel burn is a little above 5 gallons per hour.

Regarding the Dynon stuff, I'd love to hear from others on how you use it and whether you've experienced any of the same things? Thanks.
Click to expand...

Here are a few thoughts about your thoughts.:D Just some more opinions not meant to cause a point or counter point.:rolleyes:

1. For long trips flown by yourself you might consider adding a removable aux tank. I have one in my plane that adds 6 gal to your total.

2. A lass, the RV12 is not really designed for climbing very fast. Its optimum performance is from sea level to about 6000 feet msl.

6. Yes the no medical thing has some privileges. And I agree it has great visibility.

7. This pump is not a very expensive pump and thus is not of high quality.
(shields up and armor on) Yes if you run it dry then it will wear out faster. Mine has lasted for over 550 hours so some last and others don't. On this form there have not been many reported going out.(maybe this thread will bring voice to the crickets):p Maybe an upgrade in the future from Vans as they get feed back from their SLSAs. (IMHO many changes have come as a direct result of the SLSA):eek:

8. As discussed here before that the intercom was selected to save on costs when designing the plane. Consider a headset with blue tooth capability then patching into your ipad or Itouch with your iTunes library. Or later on upgrading the intercom to a higher quality unit.

9. How tall are you dude? But can you see the moeller gage?

10. With the painted on nonskid wing walk the round head rivet won't be noticeable.:cool:
 
Awesome observations!

I needed that. Can't wait for more. BTW, stop by Santa Fe on your way back!

505-four two four-0247

Bob
 
f1rocket said:
PM sent.

I wasn't very clear. I didn't mean to imply that my engine won't stay running with the replacement pump. I was trying to say that it wouldn't stay running with the FAILED pump and WOT at 8500 MSL with less than 10 gallons of fuel in the tank. I suspect that if may have to do with less head pressure from the fuel in the tank and the failure mode of the pump. I wish I'd saved the dang thing so it could be looked at. I'll probably swing by Van's next week Thursday or Friday depending upon the paint schedule.

BTW, just because I've been asked several times now, the pump I bought from NAPA sure appeared to be the exact same pump. It had the same numbers stamped on it, same decal on the side, same fittings, same size, same electrical wires, etc. Everything now is working as it should. I haven't tried flying with the fuse pulled on it, but I will the next time I go fly.

Of course I did the fuel flow test. It exceeded the benchmark as I recall. Van's has the PAP. I mailed it in a couple of weeks ago.

Also to recap, here are the facts of what happened.

1. Electric pump failed over Missouri. I noticed low fuel pressure fluxuations but no engine issues. Continued on,

2. About 20 minutes later, the pressures began to swing more and dip to zero for an instant as it moved up and down.

3. Few minutes later, the engine stumbled badly two times in quick succession, almost to the point of stopping the engine.

4. I cut engine power and landed without incident and the engine did not stumble for the remainder of the flight.

PM me if you'd like more details.
Click to expand...

Since you have to put the airplane back together after paint, I would check your entire fuel system for contamination and also consider having your rotax fuel pump checked out as well.

Typically, alternate fuel pumps like the facet or fuel tank pumps like you see on any large aircraft are there to keep pressure in the lines, prevent vapor lock, etc, but a partial or full loss of power usually indicates a failure of the engine driven fuel pump.

Don't ask me how I know.

If it passes the PAP fuel flow test again to the gascolator, but still cuts out without the fuel pump c/b pulled, I suspect you may have a problem with something forward of the gascolator.

Rotax had something out and replaced some fuel pumps a while back, but i suspect you have the newer engine so that shouldn't be the problem - you may want to check the rotax owner website.
 
Thanks for the comments. I don't want to turn this into a fuel pump thread but I do plan some tests and checkout of the engine pump. It may have a small piece of building debris lodged in there somewhere.

I should note that I have the new GTR200 com with built in intercom. Good suggestion on a different headset so I can go straight to the iPhone.

How about the way you use your Dynon? Am I missing something that makes fuel management more easy than constantly flipping screens?
 
You might consider forgetting the Dynon or the boat gauge for fuel mgt and simply fly by time. Once your tank is full you have 15 gallons of useful fuel. At 5 gal per hour you have three hours of safe flying. Out west, I start to narrow my choices after two hours for sure. Time takes distance out of the fuel equation.

Keep in mind the 10,000 foot limit for sport pilot flying is an MSL number but you can fly 2000 AGL if it is higher than 10,000 feet. That can be a critical issue out west and you are certainly permitted to carry oxygen.

This plane has no problem climbing to or flying in the low teens.

In 550 hours, my Facet has never been shut off. I did replace the leaking engine driven pump several years ago with the new Rotax version and have had no problems since.
 
Yes, that's a good suggestion. I noticed in the set-up page for the flight display panel that you could insert the estimated time to destination in one of the side bars and started using it while cruising up the central California valley.

Again the problem for just me I guess is that I usually don't have this panel displayed unless I am hand flying the airplane. Typically with the AP engaged, I have the larger moving map and the small engine panel up. So if I want to go searching for an airport within my range, I have to constantly swap screens or go to the FP sub-page to see the times. I'd love for Dynon to add a couple of enhancements to the moving map panel that would assist in either time, distance, or fuel management.

Maybe I'm just being anal about this feature, but I found that I needed it on every cross country leg I flew out west (10 legs in all). My proposal is to add a bug to the list for Estimated Fuel at Arrival and then make all the bugs that today you can add to the flight display, be able to add them to the moving map display. That would solve it for me.
 
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You should be able to add the Fuel at Waypoint number to the 20% engine screen using the Screen Layout Editor. also see this thread
http://www.vansairforce.com/community/showthread.php?t=111857

Also, join the Dynon forum. They are very receptive to suggestions -like adding fuel at waypoint as a choice on the map display. That's the right place for Dynon suggestions.
 
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I operate my 912 at 5100 RPM in cruise. Usually I see about 19 - 21 inches manifold pressure, and if I count the time from startup to shutdown it results in 4.5 GPH. My longest flight has been 3.2 hours with 6 Gal showing on the gage at landing. I added a little over 14 Gal to top off to the fuel cap. If you consistently set power you should be able to zero in on a "typical" fuel burn. I chose 5100 because it's near the torque curve peak and seems to be a good trade off between speed and endurance.
 
On the music thing

A couple of things to try:
1. Although more difficult after the airplane is completed, install a stereo intercom. PS Engineering and Sigtronics both offer units with separate stereo audio in jacks. I have the Sigtronics and the audio in jack will self mute the music when the com radio receives or transmits. I recommend the PS Engineering.
2. You can plug your ipad/ipad/mp3/cd player directly into many of the stereo ANR headsets. The sound is incredible.
 
Uasble fuel & Aux Tank

I don't want ti hijack the thread, but there were a couple of comments I wanted to explore. Switch to a different thread if appropriate.

Peterk said:
... Once your tank is full you have 15 gallons of useful fuel ...
Click to expand...
Is this really true? 15 gal usable from the 20 gal tank? Frankly, I thought a 20 gal tank was a bit small but 15 gal usable is really pretty minimal.

Jetguy said:
... 1. For long trips flown by yourself you might consider adding a removable aux tank. I have one in my plane that adds 6 gal to your total ...
Click to expand...
Could you provide some additional info about your aux tank? Construction? Location? Plumbing? Pics?
 
I just had my fuel tank out for the last SB. The way the tank is designed, I would expect all but a few drops to be useable in level flight. I used the fuel pump to empty the last 5 gallons from my tank and there was only a bit of fuel left in the gas collator. The tank itself was completely empty.

The POH says not to take off with less than 4 gallons remaining.
 
tomkk said:
Is this really true? 15 gal usable from the 20 gal tank? Frankly, I thought a 20 gal tank was a bit small but 15 gal usable is really pretty minimal.
Click to expand...

I think the person who wrote this was also accounting for personal minimums of a 5 gallon reserve.
 
Unusable Fuel

From the company POH...yes, I stop at 5.

Unusable Fuel
Shallow Climbs, Lvl or Descending Flight:0 US Gallons Vx Climb: 3 US Gallons
Climbs: 4 US Gallons
W ARNING
When the fuel level is less than 4 US Gallons, extreme caution should be used during climbs to ensure that the
tank outlet remains submerged. Prolonged high pitch angles (greater than 8 deg nose up), may result in fuel starvation and engine stoppage.
 
About your point 7) (fuel pump):
I am seeing something similar at ~8500 at cruise (~5200 RPM) and less than half a tank of gas. When my tank level reaches ~8 gallons I do need the electric pump to maintain proper fuel pressure in the system. I have completed the 1 gallon drain test within the time limit and the system works fine otherwise, but this PSI drop in flight is very unnerving. However, I have no clue as to what might be the culprit (I checked that there is a restrictor in the return line!). I am contemplating switching to the teflon fuel line installation and throwing everything behind the gascolator out....
 
There isn't currently a fuel at destination info item that you can put on the engine or map page (I'll definitely put this on the list of things to consider adding), but there are a couple of ways that you can fairly quickly determine what your arrival state will be.

First, there's the a "fuel time remaining" engine info item that you can add to your engine page. Pair that with the "ETE Final" (estimated time enroute to your final waypoint) info item on the map. These numbers together will actually tell you, based on your current burn rate and ground coverage, how much more flight time you have than the estimate of how long it will take you to get to your destination. So if those numbers are within 30 minutes of each other for a VFR day flight, you won't have your FAA reserves for that destination.

Alternatively, pair the engine page "Fuel range" info item with the "Distance to Go" map info item and you discern the same information in miles, not time.

Michael Schofield
Marketing Manager
Dynon Avionics
 
dynonsupport said:
There isn't currently a fuel at destination info item that you can put on the engine or map page (I'll definitely put this on the list of things to consider adding).......
Click to expand...

Thanks. I was aware that I could configure the engine page but haven't tried doing so yet. Can I configure the "small" engine page?
 
You can alter them all - 50%, 40% and 20% engine pages - - add, move, change the various widgets. As you can see in this thread, my 20% page is considerably different than the Vans standard one for RV12. I liked all the indicators vertical rather than some vertical and some horizontal. Didn't need the MP gauge, , wanted Hobbs time, etc.
http://www.vansairforce.com/community/showthread.php?t=111857
 
RV-12 GTR 200 Music Wiring

f1rocket said:
8. For long flights, the lack of sound quality when playing music through the intercom is annoying. I think I have everything adjusted right but maybe I need to do more. There's not much base and the treble is tinny. It gets to me after a couple of hours. Minor point but I love to listen to music while flying so this a pain for me. Yes, I have stereo headsets and yes, they are set to stereo and not mono.
Click to expand...

Hello Randy,

We were pretty surprised when we read that you are using the GTR 200, since it has a great deal of its built-in digital signal processing (DSP) capability optimized to provide stereo music and 3D audio capabilities that rival almost any aircraft audio system.

We do, however, have some experience working with Van's to install the GTR 200 in the RV-12 and are aware of some limitations of the wiring which may impact music quality.

Van?s does report that "the GTR200 music quality and intercom is the best we have heard after testing several systems in the RV-12". We should also differentiate between sound qualities and ?noise? that may be introduced by non-standard wiring. The last page of Van?s installation instructions KAI Section 42G limits the music volume setting inside the GTR200. Above the stated level significant amounts of noise will degrade the music sound quality.

This is because the standard wiring for an RV-12 connects the MUSIC LO to ground at both ends and does not carry this signal through inside the shielded cable with the MUSIC LEFT and MUSIC RIGHT signals. Wired in this manner, the common mode noise rejection benefit of the differential input is lost which will make the input more susceptible to interference.

The installation guidance for a GTR 200 (page 4-5) explains that 3 wires are required to accomplish a good stereo music input installation. Notice in particular the comment regarding the MUSIC LO connection.

4.10 Music Inputs
The music inputs are noise rejecting and have a nominal input impedance of 600 Ω. The max. rated input level is 1.5 Vrms. The MUSIC LO must be connected to the music source along with MUSIC RIGHT and MUSIC LEFT. If MUSIC LO is not connected, music volume will be low (or inaudible), noisy, and distorted.

The current wiring is a compromise to make the system plug?n play and compatible with Garmin and a range of other products. Van?s plans to improve the system in the future. For now with harnesses of the current configuration already installed in numerous finish kits plus the fact that the installation in their aircraft with the music volume setting limited is working well, this project is a lower priority.

You would likely notice an immediate improvement in your music quality if you would run a dedicated shielded, three wire 22 AWG cable between your stereo music jack and pins 18 (MUSIC RIGHT), 19 (MUSIC LEFT), and 37 (MUSIC LO) on the GTR 200 connector.

To accomplish this change, unplug the music jack at the ES-00044/ES-00045 connector, wire a new ES-00045 connector using a ES-00046 Micro-Fit Molex Socket onto the new 3 wire cable, route to the GTR 200, and remove/re-install pins 18,19, and 37 with these new wires. The shield for this new cable will only be terminated at the GTR 200 back shell.

RV12MusicWiring.jpg


One additional note. We are preparing a new release of the GTR 200 software that will unleash even more of the power of the GTR 200 DSP. We are adding a Music Bass Boost feature with Off, Medium, and High settings and Music Equalizer Presets with Off, Pop, Classical, and Rock settings. We know you will be very pleased with the results. We should wrap up flight testing and release this software in a couple of weeks.

I personally like the Medium Bass Boost with Rock equalizer preset. :)
BassBoost.jpg


Let us know if you have any questions.

Thanks,
Steve
 
g3xpert said:
Hello Randy,

We were pretty surprised when we read that you are using the GTR 200, since it has a great deal of its built-in digital signal processing (DSP) capability optimized to provide stereo music and 3D audio capabilities that rival almost any aircraft audio system.

We do, however, have some experience working with Van's to install the GTR 200 in the RV-12 and are aware of some limitations of the wiring which may impact music quality.

Van?s does report that "the GTR200 music quality and intercom is the best we have heard after testing several systems in the RV-12". We should also differentiate between sound qualities and ?noise? that may be introduced by non-standard wiring. The last page of Van?s installation instructions KAI Section 42G limits the music volume setting inside the GTR200. Above the stated level significant amounts of noise will degrade the music sound quality.

This is because the standard wiring for an RV-12 connects the MUSIC LO to ground at both ends and does not carry this signal through inside the shielded cable with the MUSIC LEFT and MUSIC RIGHT signals. Wired in this manner, the common mode noise rejection benefit of the differential input is lost which will make the input more susceptible to interference.

The installation guidance for a GTR 200 (page 4-5) explains that 3 wires are required to accomplish a good stereo music input installation. Notice in particular the comment regarding the MUSIC LO connection.

4.10 Music Inputs
The music inputs are noise rejecting and have a nominal input impedance of 600 Ω. The max. rated input level is 1.5 Vrms. The MUSIC LO must be connected to the music source along with MUSIC RIGHT and MUSIC LEFT. If MUSIC LO is not connected, music volume will be low (or inaudible), noisy, and distorted.

The current wiring is a compromise to make the system plug?n play and compatible with Garmin and a range of other products. Van?s plans to improve the system in the future. For now with harnesses of the current configuration already installed in numerous finish kits plus the fact that the installation in their aircraft with the music volume setting limited is working well, this project is a lower priority.

You would likely notice an immediate improvement in your music quality if you would run a dedicated shielded, three wire 22 AWG cable between your stereo music jack and pins 18 (MUSIC RIGHT), 19 (MUSIC LEFT), and 37 (MUSIC LO) on the GTR 200 connector.

To accomplish this change, unplug the music jack at the ES-00044/ES-00045 connector, wire a new ES-00045 connector using a ES-00046 Micro-Fit Molex Socket onto the new 3 wire cable, route to the GTR 200, and remove/re-install pins 18,19, and 37 with these new wires. The shield for this new cable will only be terminated at the GTR 200 back shell.

RV12MusicWiring.jpg


One additional note. We are preparing a new release of the GTR 200 software that will unleash even more of the power of the GTR 200 DSP. We are adding a Music Bass Boost feature with Off, Medium, and High settings and Music Equalizer Presets with Off, Pop, Classical, and Rock settings. We know you will be very pleased with the results. We should wrap up flight testing and release this software in a couple of weeks.

I personally like the Medium Bass Boost with Rock equalizer preset. :)
BassBoost.jpg


Let us know if you have any questions.

Thanks,
Steve
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Wow - this is worth its own thread!

Bob
 
Thanks Steve. I will add this to my to-do list. Great post. Thank you for helping all the RV-12 owners out there with this.
 
New GTR 200 Software Available

Hello,

The new GTR 200 software with enhanced audio capabilities that was mentioned in my earlier post was released today.

Please refer to this posting.

Thanks,
Steve
 
Getting ready to make this wiring change. What about the co-pilot side? What do I do with those wires? Thanks.

(Never mind. I got confused at which headphone jack was involved. Turns out it's the music jack in the center of the floor panel. Makes it an easy change)
 
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f1rocket said:
Thanks. I was aware that I could configure the engine page but haven't tried doing so yet. Can I configure the "small" engine page?
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Randy, I was going to reply regarding fuel management on the Skyview, but Dynon beat me to it in post #30. I want exactly what you're asking for from my "to be installed someday" EFIS. I spoke to both Dynon and Garmin reps extensively at Copper State this year about this exact feature, how time, distance and fuel remaining are displayed on the EFIS.

As Dynon said, the Skyview will display ETE to the destination and flight time remaining based upon current fuel burn, but not an estimate of how much fuel you'll have at each waypoint in your flight plan. The G3X can do this and for me it was the deciding factor between Dynon and Garmin.

I'm still at least a year away so who knows what I'll eventually end up installing, but until this feature is added the Skyview is not an option for me.
 
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I have found that looking at the miles remaining (based upon fuel) and the GPS distance to destination sufficient to effectively manage my fuel while in the air. I would still like to see fuel remaining at each waypoint, but I can live with it until then.
 
As part of my condition inspection, I made the wiring change in my RV-12 as outlined here which changes the wiring of the audio in jack. All I can say is wow. I am very happy that I made this change. I turned the music up as loud as my ears could stand it and there was no distortion, clear mid-notes, and deep base. I had previously updated the software with the update noted in this thread, so I got the full benefit of the stereo capabilities of the GTR 200.

It took a little nerve to cut apart my wiring harness to the GTR 200 but in the end, it was well worth it.
 
f1rocket said:
As part of my condition inspection, I made the wiring change in my RV-12 as outlined here which changes the wiring of the audio in jack. All I can say is wow. I am very happy that I made this change. I turned the music up as loud as my ears could stand it and there was no distortion, clear mid-notes, and deep base. I had previously updated the software with the update noted in this thread, so I got the full benefit of the stereo capabilities of the GTR 200.

It took a little nerve to cut apart my wiring harness to the GTR 200 but in the end, it was well worth it.
Click to expand...

Hello Randy,

Thanks so much for reporting back with your results! It is nice to receive confirmation that customers can accomplish this wiring upgrade and receive the benefits you describe.

Thanks,
Steve
 
f1rocket said:
As part of my condition inspection, I made the wiring change in my RV-12 as outlined here which changes the wiring of the audio in jack. All I can say is wow. I am very happy that I made this change. I turned the music up as loud as my ears could stand it and there was no distortion, clear mid-notes, and deep base. I had previously updated the software with the update noted in this thread, so I got the full benefit of the stereo capabilities of the GTR 200.

It took a little nerve to cut apart my wiring harness to the GTR 200 but in the end, it was well worth it.
Click to expand...

What did you have to pull apart to accomplish this - do you need new headset jacks - or just a new wire and molex pins and pins for the backshell?

Any pics?

thanks.
 
You have to remove the connector into the back of the radio and replace pins 18, 19, and 37 per the instructions. Fortunately, Stein ships a pin extractor with the avionics kit for the -12 and I already had the female fins and crimper. I also had to remove the radio from the tray, the transponder, and the ADS/B radio as well in order to get to the connector with my crimping tool. Also, you need to run a new three-wire insulated wire from the music input jack to the back of the radio. Not impossible, but not fun. Since I already had to get in there to run the canopy warning wire, I just did them both at the same time.
 
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f1rocket said:
You have to remove the connector into the back of the radio and replace pins 18, 19, and 37 per the instructions. Fortunately, Stein ships a pin extractor with the avionics kit for the -12 and I already had the female fins and crimper. I also had to remove the radio from the tray, the transponder, and the ADS/B radio as well in order to get to the connector with my crimping tool. Also, you need to run a new three-wire insulated wire from the music input jack to the back of the radio. Not impossible, but not fun. Since I already had to get in there to run the canopy warning wire, I just did them both at the same time.[/QUOTE

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I have followed this thread very closely, and I sure would like to have a good music jack. Unfortunately, I have the Skyview Screen, SL40, and the flightcom 403. The interference was so bad that I disconnected the input jack leads from the "D" sub on the back of the intercom. Now I have very quiet headsets. I would be glad to change the music input jack wiring to a 3 wire shielded cable, it that would solve the noise problem, and give me a quality "music in". Has anyone tried this on a Flightcom intercom system. Any tips would be greatly appreciated.

Tom
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todehnal said:
f1rocket said:
You have to remove the connector into the back of the radio and replace pins 18, 19, and 37 per the instructions. Fortunately, Stein ships a pin extractor with the avionics kit for the -12 and I already had the female fins and crimper. I also had to remove the radio from the tray, the transponder, and the ADS/B radio as well in order to get to the connector with my crimping tool. Also, you need to run a new three-wire insulated wire from the music input jack to the back of the radio. Not impossible, but not fun. Since I already had to get in there to run the canopy warning wire, I just did them both at the same time.[/QUOTE

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I have followed this thread very closely, and I sure would like to have a good music jack. Unfortunately, I have the Skyview Screen, SL40, and the flightcom 403. The interference was so bad that I disconnected the input jack leads from the "D" sub on the back of the intercom. Now I have very quiet headsets. I would be glad to change the music input jack wiring to a 3 wire shielded cable, it that would solve the noise problem, and give me a quality "music in". Has anyone tried this on a Flightcom intercom system. Any tips would be greatly appreciated.

Tom
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Tom, I had the same problem with my 1st 12. I connected an ipod to it and it sounded great until I fired it up and it sounded like I was in an african rain forest. If memory serves, a filter like this saved the day.

http://www.amazon.com/Kensington-Re...&qid=1421791141&sr=1-53&keywords=noise+filter

Check your pm's
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On my previous airplanes, I was always careful to keep the power wires and avionics wires in separate runs throughout the fuselage. I always had quiet headsets. In the -12, all the wires are run together. Using shielded audio cables which are grounded properly (only at the radio chassis) I think is critical to keeping radiated noise out of the audio system.
 
As a data point, the "entertainment input jack" in my stock RV-12 ELSA (SV, SL40, FC 403, ADS-B, LightSpeed headsets, etc.) works fine. It ain't Carnegie Hall, but it is fine for flying music. :)
 
Thanks for the replies. I had very noisy headsets with nothing plugged into the music jack. In sharing that problem, Scott suggested that I try removing the music input leads from the intercom "D" connector. It worked. Totally quiet headsets. Some of the earlier posts on this thread gave me hope that just maybe, changing out the 2 wire lead to 3 wire shielded may give back my music jack function, with improved quality. I may give it a try anyway

Tom
 
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