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let's be careful out there

morganjp

Well Known Member
I lost a friend a few weeks back. The NTSB preliminary report was on this forum last week. While it was just preliminary; it did point out a few things that I had already surmized which was: 1. The weather was perfect . 2. the airplane had fuel and the engine was performing normally. 3. there was no failure of any of the controls. What was not in the report was that the pilot was accomplished and a very good stick.

Before I go further I would like to relate an incident that happened to me a couple of years ago. a friend from church had requested that I give him a ride to take some aerial photos of the church property. So we are above the church at 700 to 800 ft AGL in slow flight for him to take photos. It some point he decides to switch lenses and reaches behind the seat in the baggage area to get a different lens. He got his arm caught on something back there and his response was to grab the stick on his side and pull back.

Things got very exciting very fast and it required a hard smack on his arm to get him to let go. The recovery after he let go was uneventful but the experience really scared me. I would also point out that I was much larger than he was which probably helped.

Back to the report: An "eyewittness" siad the plane appeared to be doing an aerobatic maneuver prior to the crash. We know nothing about how accurate that statement is or what was truly going on in the cockpit and we never will.

However I would like to make a point that flying aerobatic maneuvers with someone who is not a pilot or wants to do such maneuvers can get you killed.
You have no idea whatsoever how that person will respond to the maneuver.

food for thought.

1. fly aerobatics by yourself.
2. Have lots of altitude.
3. If you must do aerobatics with a passenger and you are unsure of how a passenger will respond then remove the passenger stick. ( mine is easily removable as are many)
4. Do a very thorough preflight briefing and explain everything about what is going to happen.
5. Make sure that the passenger is comfortable at all times with what you are doing.

My good fortune was that my incident happened in a RV6-A where I could get his hand off the stick. If I had been in a 4 or an 8 I would probably be dead!

Please be careful as I don't want to loose more friends!

John Morgan
 
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imagine someone doing that in a helicopter....it happened to a tour pilot here in atlanta, an elbow to the face solved his problem on that interesting takeoff
 
this is my response to this. I have a stick that is the original from vans for the right side, it's tappered and can be removed and installed on a whim. It is always removed and sitting in the back. When I give a ride and expect the other person to have control, they are advised that the stick will be installed when I'm ready for them to take over. In other words on take off and landing the stick is removed. This works very well for me and when flying is most important, the stick is removed. I like to fly into the mountains and get very close to the sides. The stick is removed, I don't care who is in the right seat. That kind of flying is very important that I alone have the stick.

thanks for reading
 
I fly with an 8 and I would like to remove my back stick but every time I think to that report of a pilot that save himself flying a broken front stick using the back one.

Ok, probably it's a paranoia but ....
 
This is a very good point to keep in the back of your mind when flying close to the edge of the performance envelope with a non-pilot passenger. I lost a friend flying a Cub...low speed, near stall, high angle of attack, low altitude, gusty winds...probably shouldnt have been there in that flight regime, but he had done it many times. The passenger was actually taking pics out of the open side panel as the aircraft spun to the ground (recovered at the crash site). There is a chance the passenger mistakenly stepped on the rudder as he was leaning out the window...no time for a response from the pilot if he did. Brief your passengers very clearly if you are going to fly in an environment like that...
 
This actually led to an interesting discussion between myself and the lady friend. She hasn't quite gotten her commercial ticket yet, but she does work some of the rides/photo flights at her helicopter outfit. To her, the mere idea of leaving flight controls in place for anything other than something like dual instruction is mind-blowing. They'd never think of putting flight controls in front of a non-pilot passenger.

Of course, the few aircraft I've flown don't have this option. I simply make it a point to always tell my front-seat passenger that they are to remain clear of the controls at all times unless I invite them to fly. Since, to my knowledge, there's no way to just remove the right-side yoke in an Archer, this is about the best I can do. (along with knowing my passenger)

So that's all well and good, but here's another data point: I've worked rides events for the local CAF wing. I've helped a number of people into the back seat of our SBD Dauntless for a short flight, and we always had the rear stick installed. Much like my personal preflight briefings, I always instructed the passenger to remain clear of the controls, generally going so far as to tell them exactly where to put their hands and feet. When you get right down to it, that's a lot of trust for the pilot to be putting in a complete stranger, especially in a tandem aircraft. If someone back there was to get weird ideas and refuse to release the stick, I don't think there's a single thing the pilot could do. There's absolutely no access between the front and rear cockpits.

I guess there aren't really any conclusions to be had here, just things to think about. How well do you know the person flying with you? Are you sure you trust this person to not do something stupid that might kill the two of you?
 
Accident Investigation

The preliminary report on a fatal Yak 52 accident on Sep 16,2012 has just been released.
The first paragraph states: "NTSB investigators either traveled in support of this investigation or conducted a significant amount of investigative work without any travel, and used data obtained from various sources to prepare this aircraft accident report".
What this really means is that the NTSB does not do an on site investigation of many, perhaps even most, EAB accidents. This responsibility is delegated to the nearest FSDO office. The FSDO inspector may have a lot of accident investigation training and experience or very little.
So if you believe that the NTSB report is gospel, you probably still believe in Santa Claus and the Tooth Fairy.
The NTSB loves to blame the pilot, especially if they are not there to defend themselves. Some of the time they are correct, many times they are not.
 
NTSB investigators and NTSB investigations

I have worked alongside a number of NTSB investigators in the SoCal area during mishap investigations. I never noticed during the investigation any effort to "blame the pilot" unless their investigation revealed pilot error was a factor in the mishap. So I disagree with your broad statement that NTSB reports many times are "not correct' and seek to blame the pilot.

I am not an NTSB or FAA employee. Just a pilot.
 
Hmmmm...passengers

So, I think it was Postlethwaite who died in his 4 in maybe 88 on take off....rear stick bent...maybe his sis grabbing it....here's the rub: we want to share the RV experience, and, face it, it is really extraordinary...so some people should NOT be riding around in our planes. Here's my approach refined over 25 years: if you find yourself trying to talk someone into flying...don't. just don't. No one should be in our planes unless they really, really want to be there......tell every rider (that's what they are) to read the Experimental sticker, and walking away now is fine/perfect/OK....smart people walk away. And check again after run up and before aviating....no harm, no foul..."let's go back unless you are up to for it". Because, we all know, you can't pull over....I sold my second chute, and never wear my chute when giving a ride because my experience is no one is up to backseat acro for long...

The good news: I tell all my pax: they can fly the stick once we are off, but hold it with 2 finger and never, ever grab/yank....I can fly the plane upside down/straight up/straight down/slow/fast....but never/ever yank or grab....never had anyone come close to the edge EXCEPT an airline pilot who thought he could roll intelligently (arrrrgh...the nose came down and the airspeed was spiking something fierce...he died in another plane crash, not mine!). And, we head back the instant anyone feels warm/flushed....

My guess is no passenger of mine will kill me. Who knows, maybe there will be lapse of judgment, but don't think so...I want "best experience" passengers, and no bad experiences....I want people to love the trip as much as I do, not freak out or be sick about it. I think turnign the equation on its head and asking how can I make myself an ambassador of RFV flying will fix this stuff: we need to create perfect flying experiences, and not "I survived" flying an RV....MTCents John
 
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