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plane power alternator failed

A

allbee

Well Known Member
I have the 60amp planepower, model al12-EI60/b, 515hrs. quit working so I removed and found that the stator wires all four have broken off. My option at the moment is to go get an automotive altenator. Is there a drop in replacement for this altenator. Meaning can I reuse the belt and mountings. I need the application and part no if possible, need to get this flying again.

thanks
 
I would call Plane Power and have them send you one over night.


Have you balanced your prop?
 
I called and was told that I can send it to them for a rebuild program which basically amounts to 225 and they will send a new one back. I was told that a to tight belt or loose would cause the problem. was told to check with torque wrench, with used belt I want pully bolt to slip until 13-15ft.lbs torque. New belt around 9ft. lbs. I didn't know that.
 
Hi Steve

My alternator died on my -10 and surprisingly found a starter/alternator rebuilder, 8 miles from my house...$35 and overnight, to fix a broken brush wire! He happens to be one of my Mennonite farmer customers!

Ask around some automotive shops, since you live in a pretty big town.

Best,
 
What Pierre Said!

After much consternation trying to find a "drop in" replacement when my alternator failed, I went to a local automotive shop and they said there is an alternator repair shop about 20 miles away. I called them in advance and they said that they could repair it if it was repairable. They repaired it real good. That was 4 years ago and it has been working great since!
 
rvn817j said:
After much consternation trying to find a "drop in" replacement when my alternator failed, I went to a local automotive shop and they said there is an alternator repair shop about 20 miles away. I called them in advance and they said that they could repair it if it was repairable. They repaired it real good. That was 4 years ago and it has been working great since!
Click to expand...

Outstanding! Cheap fix and back in the air!
 
There isn't much rocket science in rebuilding these things - at least to get you flying again while you look for a longer term solution - just remember that when you take it in to the alternator shop that it is for an "Air Boat" (if you are in the south), or for an "off road vehicle" anywhere else. :) Don't mention the word "airplane"!

Paul
 
But, but... this can't be! It's been said here that Plane Power and B&C alternators never fail, just the Vans N-D ones do!
I keed, I keed. :D
 
allbee said:
I want pully bolt to slip until 13-15ft.lbs torque. New belt around 9ft. lbs. I didn't know that.
Click to expand...

That's because Plane Power doesn't put that factoid in its instructions. It just says "see the engine manufacturer's guidelines" (which for me has been a fruitless search for the information).

This post has given me the information that's prevented me from final installation of my PP alternator. So thanks for that, although I'm sorry your mishap ended up being my good fortune.
 
I have an update. I sent the altenator back to pp. I got a call monday that they recieved it. I was told it was all wore out on the altenator, never seen one so bad. WHAT??? I had the back tore apart and the only thing wrong was the wires comming off the stator, the windings on the back housing. the bearings were nice and smooth and tight, the brushes were wore down a little but otherwise looked good. Anyway I just gave them my CC and they sent the new one back to me.

I called this morning to make sure they put the spacers on the new one. Than I asked about things because I'm feeling a little sick about all this. The guy I was talking to, name was dick, come back at me and said they had the best warrentee in the business, I replied back, ya so good that you won't help me with being a few days out of your warrentee, you see I had 2 years and just under 60days on this altenator, ya ya I also have 515 hrs on the thing.

anyway he tries now to tell me that hard landings will cause this, don't even go there, I don't even sqeak the tires when I land. He gives me the speach on belt tightening, I come back with, why not put in your instructions how to adjust the belt, he gives me this thing that a certified mechanic knows the proceedure, I come back with, your working with the experimental end of things, we builders are doing this in our garages. why keep this a secret, tell us. On and on we went. Finally I tell this guy, you know how I found out where to find the problem in this alternator, he is quiet. I found out about it on VAF, he is confused, who or what is VAF. I said that is Vans AirForce. Oh, he said. Well we have a great product, there is nothing wrong with it. I said, I desagree with you, this problem has happened before, broken stator wires that is, that is why I tore the altenator apart to look at those very wires. I feel you have a design problem there and it needs to be corrected. Well that went over like dung in milk. this guy is not going to listen. I ended the call and just am going to have to live with another altenator that is probably going to fail again with the same symtoms and problems. For now I have to go with the satisfaction that I will have a new altenator and start at square one again. In the mean time I guess I'll have to do the alternative and have a sequence for alternator failure, and make it so I can fly to my destination and repair after I land. What a deal here.

Hope I haven't upset anyone, but I feel this needs to get out. THere is a problem with this altenator on the stator wires. They say it's vibration. well I said it before, these engines do vibrate, hence the sensor for fuel and oil are on the firewall. So I think PP needs to adress the problem and fix it. Not us trying to make our engine vibration free.
 
allbee said:
I was told that a to tight belt or loose would cause the problem. was told to check with torque wrench, with used belt I want pully bolt to slip until 13-15ft.lbs torque. New belt around 9ft. lbs. I didn't know that.
Click to expand...

where did I get: 11-13 ft-lbs new, 7-9 ft-lbs used? hmmm.
 
Excess vibration will contribute to early failure of components, especially engine mounted ones. You might want to consider having a prop balance just to find out where you are at. Easily 90% of the engines I check are over the limit and vibration levels are considerably reduced after balance.
 
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Mine had failed at 70 hours.. they promptly fixed it (same day turnaround) and sent it back.. been working fine ever since (another 330+ hrs)... IIRC it was same or similar issue to what you experienced.

The attitude they gave you is a major turn-off.. Having said that, I would strongly suggest following Walt's advice and make sure your end is covered.. by balancing the prop at least.. (not sure if you had it done already or not??)
 
I'm also a fan of B&C, just my opinion but I think they offer a better alternator than PP.
 
Another point...

I've seen this happen twice before on RV's... on some installations the alternator pulley runs very close to the lower cowl. The engine during certain flight manuvers can actually move around more than we would like to think. If the alt pulley ever makes contact with the lower cowl, it can be the loss of a perfectly good functioning alternator pretty much instantly.
 
allbee said:
I have an update. I sent the altenator back to pp. I got a call monday that they recieved it. I was told it was all wore out on the altenator, never seen one so bad. WHAT??? I had the back tore apart and the only thing wrong was the wires comming off the stator, the windings on the back housing. the bearings were nice and smooth and tight, the brushes were wore down a little but otherwise looked good. Anyway I just gave them my CC and they sent the new one back to me.

I called this morning to make sure they put the spacers on the new one. Than I asked about things because I'm feeling a little sick about all this. The guy I was talking to, name was dick, come back at me and said they had the best warrentee in the business, I replied back, ya so good that you won't help me with being a few days out of your warrentee, you see I had 2 years and just under 60days on this altenator, ya ya I also have 515 hrs on the thing.

anyway he tries now to tell me that hard landings will cause this, don't even go there, I don't even sqeak the tires when I land. He gives me the speach on belt tightening, I come back with, why not put in your instructions how to adjust the belt, he gives me this thing that a certified mechanic knows the proceedure, I come back with, your working with the experimental end of things, we builders are doing this in our garages. why keep this a secret, tell us. On and on we went. Finally I tell this guy, you know how I found out where to find the problem in this alternator, he is quiet. I found out about it on VAF, he is confused, who or what is VAF. I said that is Vans AirForce. Oh, he said. Well we have a great product, there is nothing wrong with it. I said, I desagree with you, this problem has happened before, broken stator wires that is, that is why I tore the altenator apart to look at those very wires. I feel you have a design problem there and it needs to be corrected. Well that went over like dung in milk. this guy is not going to listen. I ended the call and just am going to have to live with another altenator that is probably going to fail again with the same symtoms and problems. For now I have to go with the satisfaction that I will have a new altenator and start at square one again. In the mean time I guess I'll have to do the alternative and have a sequence for alternator failure, and make it so I can fly to my destination and repair after I land. What a deal here.

Hope I haven't upset anyone, but I feel this needs to get out. THere is a problem with this altenator on the stator wires. They say it's vibration. well I said it before, these engines do vibrate, hence the sensor for fuel and oil are on the firewall. So I think PP needs to adress the problem and fix it. Not us trying to make our engine vibration free.
Click to expand...

Allbee,
I have also been dealing with this. I called PP before taking the unit off the airplane and Dick was my tech rep, too. So far we have both been amiable and he directed me to the troubleshooting flow charts on their website. I ran through all the wiring tests twice, wiggling wires the second time. It all seemed fine. I pulled the unit and neither of the two auto parts stores in town could match the plug to test it here. I called PP and told Dick that it felt to me as if the rear bearing was loose, as I could grasp the pulley and wiggle it and there seemed to be play in the rear. The brushes or rear bearing also seemed to be making noise. I distinctly remember how smooth it turned when I installed it. I got an RMA # and sent it in yesterday. I'll report back as soon as I know more. My prop was checked at the Air Tractor fly-in and was within .02 IIRC. I'd consider a B&C but aren't you in the same boat if you lose one of those, stranded waiting on a replacement if it does go bad? I'm leaning towards a regular car alternator like Kahuna suggests if a second PP doesn't last.

One note: I asked Dick about using a blast tube. He said PP didn't need one but if you wanted to use one to make sure they were directed at the back metal plate centered over the diodes. This is the hottest part of the unit. Do not, he told me, direct air into the side of the unit where the openings are, as that is where the fans blow the hot air out of the alternator.

If anyone knows what exact alternator the PP is based on and could PM me a part #, I'd be most appreciative. At least I could go to John Deere or NAPA or someplace and find one to get me back home in a pinch. I suppose I'd have to change the field wire and alt light plug though?
 
Caveman,
this opens my first debate or thoughts. What can a guy do to replace this setup, what is out there, so far nothing has surfaced. Can a person buy a bracket and reuse the original belt, for the belt is the tough one.

Now this is my thoughts on getting back home. I have my amp meter wired up so it shows amp draw on my systems, not +amps or -amps. In other words when my alternator quit I looked at my amps and could reduce things to about 2amps total draw, was real cool.

Now with that I was going to go into my dynon and raise the red line to about 13volts, that way when this happens again, as soon as the charging quits the bells will sound, I have a yellow light on the panel, and the dynon has its red label that comes on. So with that I can now pull the breakers on my pmags and I'm now flying on pmag power and also I can switch off the main and litterally fly with no amp draw and run on internal batteries on the d180 and the 696. Than fly all the way home with a stop and be able to even restart. If that fails maybe I will put my handy dandy little charger in the plane on a big flight. This stuff is a pain.

Now on my alternator I checked at the red and white wires at the alternator and had 12 volts with the main on, than checked at the B+ connection and had 12 volts, I knew the problem was in the alternator. I than removed the cover off the back and removed the screws for the regulator and the wires that came up from the stator wires fell out. I knew the problem was major than. My bearings were nice and tight and no noise, I guess to tight of belt might have been your problem. So watch that when you put in the new one.
 
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For me: Main Alt = B&C 40 amp, Back-up alt: B&C SD-8. I have never needed to use the SD-8 but I could easily fly all day long on just that unit if I needed to. Having a back up alternator makes a main alt failure a non-issue. Finding an auto parts store and changing an alternator half way across the country in not my idea of fun :D
 
FROM MY PIPER SERVICE MANUAL

Apply a torque indicating wrench to the nut that attaches the pulley to the alternator and turn it in a clockwise direction. Observe the torque shown on the wrench at the instant the pulley slips.

New belt 11 to 13 ft-lbs

Used belt 7 to 9 ft-lbs
 
I have used the same setup on multiple RV's I have built: B&C 60 amp with the LC-3 regulator and the SD-8 on the vacuum pump pad. I hope I don't jinx this, but I have never had a failure of the main B&C alternator, and that's why I use them.
It was especially nice on the recent 55 hour round trip to Alaska to not have even 1 squawk. :) Build 'em bullet proof from day one and then just go fly.

Vic
 
vic syracuse said:
It was especially nice on the recent 55 hour round trip to Alaska to not have even 1 squawk. :) Build 'em bullet proof from day one and then just go fly.
Vic
Click to expand...

That's the way is should be! I'm proud to say that I've never had to work on my plane away from home, to date 1200 hrs of 100% reliable service. For what it's worth I take the same pride with every RV I maintain as well. It's not rocket science either, use good quality components, couple it with good workmanship and regular maintenance and that's all there is to it.

I see broken down airplanes all the time, almost inevitably it is caused by lack of proper maintenance, poor workmanship and or substandard parts.

Like Vic said, build em right to start with and then you can fly them worry free:D
 
allbee said:
Caveman,
Now this is my thoughts on getting back home. I have my amp meter wired up so it shows amp draw on my systems, not +amps or -amps. In other words when my alternator quit I looked at my amps and could reduce things to about 2amps total draw, was real cool.

Now with that I was going to go into my dynon and raise the red line to about 13volts, that way when this happens again, as soon as the charging quits the bells will sound, I have a yellow light on the panel, and the dynon has its red label that comes on. So with that I can now pull the breakers on my pmags and I'm now flying on pmag power and also I can switch off the main and litterally fly with no amp draw and run on internal batteries on the d180 and the 696. Than fly all the way home with a stop and be able to even restart. If that fails maybe I will put my handy dandy little charger in the plane on a big flight. This stuff is a pain.

Now on my alternator I checked at the red and white wires at the alternator and had 12 volts with the main on, than checked at the B+ connection and had 12 volts, I knew the problem was in the alternator. I than removed the cover off the back and removed the screws for the regulator and the wires that came up from the stator wires fell out. I knew the problem was major than. My bearings were nice and tight and no noise, I guess to tight of belt might have been your problem. So watch that when you put in the new one.
Click to expand...

Thanks,
I set the belt per the proper slip torque @ 12 ft / lbs. when new and believe it or not had checked it again at the last condition inspection on July 4th. It needed no re-adjustment as it was at 8 ft/lbs from belt stretch.

My get home plan worked much the same as yours except I have an AFS, one mag and one lightspeed ign. It got me home all the way from the Twin cities to Oklahoma but I needed two fuel stops due to the weather forcing detours. I was afraid the engine cranking after fueling up would draw too much power and I'd be stranded, but for some reason the stupid thing would charge on the ground after I landed and reset it. I just let the battery charge good before killing the motor, then again before taking off. The problem is our planned vacation got cut in half as we were headed for the Black Hills and Yellowstone. And some day I hope to fly to Alaska like Vic, dang it. I reset the alternator on the ground at home and this time it was dead as a door nail.

The Plane Power unit came highly recommended to this first time builder by some of the members of VAF. I was going for a light airplane and had no need, (or so I thought) for an SD-8 in a VFR airplane. Heck now I may have to carry a spare Plane Power around with me unless I go back to square one and rebuild the electrical system. So much for saving weight.

I don't want to bash vendors. I'm whining, but I know guys that flew Cherokees with auto alternators that went more than 215 hours like my PP did. Let's see 215 times 180 mph, what is that 38,700 or so miles? So much for the old adage, "You get what you pay for."

I'm likely going to give the PP one more try just to avoid the hassle of changing brackets, adding external regulators, and changing plugs. I'm considering adding the blast tube, but Kahuna says flying in rain will knock the alt. out if you do that. If the next PP only goes 200 hours I'm definitely going with something like the B&C.
 
Joe, on my trip to the Bahamas in June I had a spare alternator, belt, electric fuel pump, tires and tubes plus lots of other stuff. Going solo allowed me to carry mucho parts. I even bought a spare battery in Florida when mine started acting up (or at least based upon my possibly flawed diagnosis).
 
My B&C SD40 Alternator came complete with all mounting hardware and belt.
Doug Gray
 
Mine Failed Too!

allbee said:
I own the dynavib and have the prop balanced at .03. now I will recheck that before I put this back in the air, I have the stick still on the prop and the degrees marked on the flywheel, very easy to check.

Just thinking about everything. The wires broke, they claim vibration along with the famous saying, this has never happened to anybody else. Ya right, I read that same very problem on this forum.

I work in the auto repair field. I have seen many alternator failures. I have seen what happens when you have too tight a belt. The input bearing goes, nothing else. I've seen what happens when the belt is too loose. It doesn't charge when loaded and the belt squeals. I've yet to see broken things from it. I feel this is just a simple case of bad design. and my bad luck.
Click to expand...

Interesting thread. My PP alternator failed at about 550 Hrs. They said it was broken stator wires due to vibration. I've never seen any other alternator fail this way, and told them so... Another local RV-7A owner just sent his back with something like 300 hours on it... PP had better start looking into this or they will loose the experimental business....
 
While I agree that PP needs to take the failures seriously, to compare a $913 solution to a $369 solution (case mount on mine) is a little apples to oranges to me.

I would guess that the installed base of PP alternators is pretty high so we must be careful not to jump to the conclusion that they are all ****. I know at least one other local that has had a failure of his around 400 hrs. I also know another local that had a failure of his autozone one around 400hrs as well.

Mine has given me 130 hours of flawless performance. It may die tommorrow on the way back from the paint shop though so this thread definately interest me.

Maybe there is someway we can come together as a group to let PP know that we want them to take these failures seriously and that the experimental world will not tolerate poor performance in the field.
 
After reading all these posts about PP failures I am second guessing my decision to use a PP on my 10. I thought I bought the best that was available.
I had no trouble with a stock Van's alternator on my 8 over 450 hrs and still going with the new owner.
Sounds like you need to carry a spare when using a PP alternator.:(
I never even looked at the B&C, not sure why.
 
I want to put this into the pot. I'm not upset that I had to pay out the 225 for another altenator + shipping both ways about 80bucks. I'm upset with the fact that there is a problem with the alternator, mainly the stator wires breaking, which is what happened to mine. I'm upset with the response that nothing has been addressed with this concern, that the "new" alternator on its way to me right now is the exact same alternator that failed. No updates. That has me concerned, what to do. I want to fly out of my area and not worry about things. Am I barking up a tree here. I am with PP. They already told me that nothing will be done. I was told that they have only seen this problem with alternators that are used in, get this, Alaska. Hummmmmmm....

Anyway, still waiting for an answere to an alternator that can be gotten from autozone and what mounting brackets and belt are needed. I'm thinking an automotive alternator with the B&C backup for future use.
 
alternator

My wife and I were headed to Oshkosh last Sunday a week ago and at 128.3 hours mine died. It took the better part of a day and a half to run down parts and find an alternator shop in Scottsboro, Alabama to get going again. The folks in that town were fantastic people. They were most helpful and gave us a car and directions to the best alternator shop two towns over.

I was super disappointed to have the thing fail with only 128.3 hours on it. The wires that connect the brushes to the innards had broken and caused the bearing to fail as well. It turned in the housing and ruined the housing too. We ended up using three different alternators to make one good one.

There are some things in this hobby that need a little more attention.......alternator reliability and nose wheel strength on the "A" models.........BUT THAT'S ANOTHER STORY.

My 2 cents.
 
My PP failed within the first 20 hours. They replaced the entire unit that now has 335 hours on it and is rock steady.

But if this thing fails again, I might look into using a dynamo instead.
 
If you are interested in tracking down ND alternators by number, just search the forums for "Lester" (as in Lester No.). You'll get lots of good reading!

Paul
 
Ahh...

Notice the engine side mounting, one point only that I see... Very BAD news if this is true. :)
There is one other place in the experimental market that sells these "Knock off" ND Alts from China, Beware...
 
What about Van's?

I think I've only seen one comment here about Van's Nippon Densu rebuilt alternator (assuming he still sells it). So let me chime in that mine (the 60 amp unit) has 430 hours on it and has worked fine. I do have a blast tube blowing on it. Maybe I've just been lucky, or have low power needs, but it's probably the least expensive unit of the lot.

Chris
 
LifeofReiley said:
Notice the engine side mounting, one point only that I see... Very BAD news if this is true. :)
Click to expand...

Not sure I follow why this is bad? It looks like the same configuration as the Lamar alternator I have.

You could be right that these are knockoffs at that price...
 
rocketbob said:
Van's alternator bracket kit. Will have to check on what belt I have.
Click to expand...

Dayco TopCog 15348 11A0885

Alan Carroll said:
Based on the appearance and part numbers this appears to be exactly the same as the Lamar alternator that Aerosport sells as an option on their engines (for a lot more money). Given the low price I may pick one up as a spare!
Click to expand...

This is the same alternator Niagara Airparts sold years ago, which is the same one Bart uses on his engines.

LifeofReiley said:
Notice the engine side mounting, one point only that I see... Very BAD news if this is true. :)
There is one other place in the experimental market that sells these "Knock off" ND Alts from China, Beware...
Click to expand...

Like I said, over 1000 hours was still going strong. My mower with a Kubota engine has the same exact alternator. At idle it shakes magnitudes more than a Lycoming. I guess if spending a bunch of money on an alternator makes you sleep better, that's your choice.
 
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Dick called back yesterday and informed me that the front bearing was out of my PP unit and when that happens it normally knocks out the internals at the rear of the alternator. I thought I felt the looseness in the rear bearing, but I could have been incorrect. In any event, I had him ship a $225 replacement. The tracking # indicates it may arrive today. I sent the original regular UPS ground and asked that the replacement be sent the same way. The plane has been AOG since Thursday of last week. I may have shaved one or two days off that sending next day air. I'll take pictures of the new one and try and continue finding an auto replacement for future emergencies. I guess I'm either a glutton for punishment or just stupid. If I don't find an auto replacement then I'll change brackets and everything next time this happens. I'll take out a loan for a B&C or go with something cheap. IIRC, Vans quit selling their "car" unit because of so many failure complaints and went exclusively with PP. I should be up and running by Saturday afternoon, minus 3 days of flying vacation fun.:mad:
 
Just got mine in and looks just like the other, I checked the stator wires and looked the same:confused: I installed and set belt as per. Went and flew and stays at 14.4volts.
 
Back up an running

allbee said:
Just got mine in and looks just like the other, I checked the stator wires and looked the same:confused: I installed and set belt as per. Went and flew and stays at 14.4volts.
Click to expand...

UPS delivered mine at noon so I installed it after work. I aimed a blast tube at the back of it. Took it for a post maintenance flight and it's working fine, so far. I was talking to a friend who is an A/P mech. and owns an auto mechanic shop. I told him my troubles and he didn't pitty me at all. He said he installed a new alternator in a Honda last week that had some special electronics in it. $1200! He thought I got a steal. I feel a bit less violated.

p.s. One week of downtime almost to the hour, though.
 
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I was down 1 week almost to the hour as well. Took the wife up last night for her night ride and this morning went on a guys flight, both were great and the alternator worked fine.
 
Just converted my ND to external regulator

for cost of $25. I cut the wires inside the old regulator to remove its function. Then made a dremel cut in the brush box to break the old circuit that supplied 14 volts to the lower brush. Solder 2 short wires for the new brush circuit. Pictures and more detail on my Picasa page. BTW my new 70 amp alternator stopped charging after 3 years and 500 hours. The brushes were worn down to about half the original size. Plan to replace them every 2 years from now on. Very easy job. Cost $5 to $10.
Dale RV6a 1540 TT

https://picasaweb.google.com/110878516619960001571/AviationExternalVoltageRegulator?authuser=0&feat=directlink
 
RV6airplanePilot said:
for cost of $25. I cut the wires inside the old regulator to remove its function. Then made a dremel cut in the brush box to break the old circuit that supplied 14 volts to the lower brush. Solder 2 short wires for the new brush circuit. Pictures and more detail on my Picasa page. BTW my new 70 amp alternator stopped charging after 3 years and 500 hours. The brushes were worn down to about half the original size. Plan to replace them every 2 years from now on. Very easy job. Cost $5 to $10.
Dale RV6a 1540 TT

https://picasaweb.google.com/110878516619960001571/AviationExternalVoltageRegulator?authuser=0&feat=directlink
Click to expand...

Dale,

I'm getting the following message:

Oops... there's nothing to see here. Either you do not have access to these photos, or they don't exist at this web address. Please contact the owner directly to gain access

Joe
 
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