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Why Didn?t I Think Of That?!

Ironflight

VAF Moderator / Line Boy
Mentor
I don?t know how many times I have looked at a problem and come up with a solution on my own ? then later on, saw a much simpler, more elegant, or simply better solution to the same problem executed by someone else. It does give truth to the idea of getting outside help and opinions on whatever we are doing ? either it will help us to do better, or confirm our own brilliance in design. Either way, the project wins if we do it better! I am sure that folks will have their own inputs and stories on this?.here?s mine:

I like to have annunciator lights for various functions in the cockpit ? some are warnings, and some ?reminders? (?Hey Dummy? lights we call them) that remind us to do things like turn off fuel pumps or not leave the landing lights on. Sure, the switch position will tell you these things, but a light will more quickly get your attention. And if you have never forgotten anything (or missed a checklist item) in a cockpit, you are a far better pilot than all the aviators I have ever known. So when I build a panel, I have an assortment of lights that I like to have, and each one has its own ?input? ? some from a switch, some a voltage sensed on a circuit, etc. These discrete inputs come in two flavor s? a voltage or a ground.

Building annunciator lights is super simple these days with the advent of 12volt LED indicators. They are simple, easy to install, and look good. They can also be dimmed by dropping the voltage through them with a resistor or potentiometer. I find that I generally want them really bright, or really dim, and while my RV-8 has a potentiometer to give me a wide variation, I find that I either use it full up or full down. Therefore, for the RV-3, I am just putting in a switch to select ?bright? or ?dim? ? it is simply a line with or without a resistor. If you gang the ground side of the LED?s, you can dim them all at once ? really slick!

Unfortunately, this ganged approach only works with LED?s that have a common switching mode ? either power or ground. You can tell that a light circuit is powered by drawing a voltage off the switch to light the LED. But EFIS alarms generally give you a ?ground? when they are active ? this means switching the other side of the LED. It?s hard to gang them this way, so what I have done before is use a simple 12 volt relay as an inverter to switch the ?ground? to a ?hot?, or vice versa. This works, but now you have introduced moving parts and complication to the system.

So the other day, I had another builder/engineer looking at the project. I explained how I built the annunciator, and that I was getting ready to wire up relays for the ?backwards? stuff. He looked at me funny and said ?if you?re going to use only two brightness positions, why not just use a DPDT switch, and run the ground switched circuits through one pole, and the hot switched circuits through the other? It?s all solid state!?

Well Duh!! Sure, of course ? that?s the answer! I can?t believe it took me so long to see such an elegant solution?.(here?s the drawing by the way).
C%26W%20Wiring.jpg


See what I mean? Sometimes, you just need another set of eyes, or someone looking from another direction to help you out. We no longer build our airplanes in a vacuum ? let others see what you are doing, and be open to suggestions ? it just might save you time and trouble?.

Paul
 
Timely and needs a name

Well of course! I've not yet wired my annunciators but occasionally pondered the dimming method. This is by far the simplest and cost effective, therefore the best that I have seen. Thanks for the awesome tip. What are you going to call it? Perhaps the builder friend should name it.

Bevan
 
Hi Paul. We did something similar with this device. It's an old photo, sorry about the primitive quality.

IL-4A_product.jpg


It's been in production about 7 years. It's not as KISS as your approach, but it supports both ground-switched and power-switched lamps, variable dimmer input and push-to-test on all lamps.

Unfortunately, resistors would have to be added in series to drive LEDs, but it will drive incandescent lamps.

Diodes and transistors can do anything, if you use enough of them! You can see in the background a portion of the schematic (which is publish here). The transistors are used to turn the power-switched inputs upside down so that everything becomes ground switched before connection to the dimmer bus. A bunch of diodes allows the test function.

Vern
 
Lamp test function

Paul,

Thanks I was just thinking about this too.

I have also been thinking about a lamp test button. Any thoughts on this? Not sure it is really necessary with LEDs.

Joel
 
gee Paul--

You could have a nifty little business just drawing schmetics for wiring harnesses for those of us not electrically inclined!!
Tom
 
Paul, You mean exactly like I did in our -9 four years ago? :). Thanks for confirming my momentary brilliance :).
 
Paul, You mean exactly like I did in our -9 four years ago? :). Thanks for confirming my momentary brilliance :).

See - that's what I mean! There are so many clever ideas out there that are obvious to some, and others of us come up with Rube Goldberg ways of doing the same thing....

Of course, back in the dark ages when I got my AE degree,I got to (had to) take only one EE course...."electrical Engineering for Non-EE's (ie, dummies)....;)

Paul
 
Not Dummies

Of course, back in the dark ages when I got my AE degree,I got to (had to) take only one EE course...."electrical Engineering for Non-EE's (ie, dummies)....;)

But I bet it was a fun class, Paul. I was EE at USC, but my ChemE roommate had to take an "EE for Non-EE" course like yours. I looked at his coursework and was envious. It was like all the best parts of being EE in just one semester, with none of the hoary details to get in the way. I kinda wish we EE's had been offered a survey of the field before we dove in. It wasn't really until grad school that anyone had a chance to look back at the big picture.

--Stephen
 
I'm confused. I thought LED's were not dimmable unless the signal was pulsed. Years ago I had LED instrument panel lights going through a rheostat. They would stay full bright, then go completely dead. Purchasing one of those LED dimmer boxes was the fix.
 
DPDT switch for two-position brightness control

Paul,

Your post was perfectly timed with the only remaining panel work on my -7; wiring the annunciator lights. I have seen reference in one of your previous posts to your use of the MPJ panel mount LED indicators for annunciators. What resistor value are you using for the "dim" light seting of the MPJ indicators?
 
Paul,

Your post was perfectly timed with the only remaining panel work on my -7; wiring the annunciator lights. I have seen reference in one of your previous posts to your use of the MPJ panel mount LED indicators for annunciators. What resistor value are you using for the "dim" light seting of the MPJ indicators?

Through trial and error, we settled on about 30KOhms.
 
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Hi Paul, thanks for the detailed posting and accompanying schematic. Which software do you use to draw your schematics?
 
If you are using a EFIS to provide a ground, just make sure the EFIS can sink the current that the led will draw. most led circuits should be designed to run about 25 ma. (check the data sheet on the LED) if the EFIS cannot sink that much current ( i hope they are designed better than that, but who knows?) you could fry some expensive parts.

bob burns
 
If you are using a EFIS to provide a ground, just make sure the EFIS can sink the current that the led will draw. most led circuits should be designed to run about 25 ma. (check the data sheet on the LED) if the EFIS cannot sink that much current ( i hope they are designed better than that, but who knows?) you could fry some expensive parts.

bob burns

Good advice Bob - something folks would need to check. In my case, I had the idea for doing it this way came from one of the design team members for my EFIS.....it BETTER work! :rolleyes:

Oh, and I am using ExpressSCH for a drawing program these days.

Paul
 
Paul,
I'm a long time lurker on this forum, but since I am an EE, I might be able to help.

I'd be surprised if you got satisfactory result with your circuit. I would expect the brightness of the indicators to vary significantly when dimmed as indicators turn on and off.

Assumptions:
1) Indicators have a built in current limiting resistor sized for full-brightness operation at 12 Volts (1KOhm is reasonable for a red LED at 12V)
2) LED forward voltage drop (Vf) is constant (it actually varies with current)
3) All indicators are the same color (Vf varies by color)
4) Vf=1.2V

For one indicator lit:

Itotal = V / R = (12 - 1.2)/(1K + 30K) = 10.8/31000 = 348uA

For two indicators lit:

Itotal = V / R = (12 - 1.2)/(500 + 30K) = 10.8/30500 = 354uA

But only half that current flows through each LED, so:

Iled = Itotal/2 = 177uA

For N indicators lit:

Iled = (12-1.2)/(N*(1000/N + 30000)) =

N Iled (uA)
1 348
2 177
3 119
4 89

It won't be quite this bad because Vf is exponentially proportional with current.

The solution is to use a small voltage regulator in place of the 30K dimming resistor. The venerable LM317A would work well for the ground-switched indicators: http://www.national.com/ds/LM/LM117.pdf

The line-switched indicators would need a negative voltage regulator: http://www.national.com/ds/LM/LM137.pdf

I'd keep the switch, that way you could bypass the regulators if there is a fault. At these current levels, I doubt there would be a problem with power dissipation in the regulator(s), but if you want adjustability all the way up to max brightness, it would be a concern.

N.B.: I'm a digital designer, a real analog engineer could probably come up with a better solution.
 
I'd be surprised if you got satisfactory result with your circuit. I would expect the brightness of the indicators to vary significantly when dimmed as indicators turn on and off.

I certainly rspect your design expertise, and I've run similar numbers to what you did in your post, but the truth is, I have run a very similar panel for years in my RV-8 (but with a couple of the LEDs driven by relays to invert them) and it has worked just fine. There is no doubt that doing it with some active components and regulation would make it BETTER, this is true, and I agree with you. But experience shows that this does actually work if you are willing to accept some variation in brightness, and want to keep it simple.

Paul
 
Infrequent event...

...I'd be surprised if you got satisfactory result with your circuit. I would expect the brightness of the indicators to vary significantly when dimmed as indicators turn on and off.

I recognized that different brightness levels will result with additional indicators turned on or off, but I expect that to be an infrequent event. In general, annunciators will be on one at a time.
 
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I certainly rspect your design expertise, and I've run similar numbers to what you did in your post, but the truth is, I have run a very similar panel for years in my RV-8 (but with a couple of the LEDs driven by relays to invert them) and it has worked just fine. There is no doubt that doing it with some active components and regulation would make it BETTER, this is true, and I agree with you. But experience shows that this does actually work if you are willing to accept some variation in brightness, and want to keep it simple.

Paul

Clearly I've succumbed to the curse of the engineer: "But if I just do this, I can make it better!"

In addition to relying on others to tell us when we can make something simpler, sometimes we need others to tell us when it's good enough.

Let's not get started on what it would take if you wanted consistent brightness across different colors of indicators :eek:
 
fuses

Paul,

Thank you for the excellent idea. I am wiring up my warning lights according to your system.

I notice that your diagram does not show fuses on the lines that carry power through the switch and run to ground. The plane power wiring diagram shows a 1 amp fuse in the warning light circuit. I also previously wired an inline fuse in the circuit from the starter contactor to the warning light.

The other circuits will be boost pump, canopy, landing light and auto pilot. Would you put a fuse in those lines?

Thanks again for the great idea.

Tony
 
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