"Experimental, you need to slow down 40 Kts"

Today I flew to a local pancake breakfast fly-in. On return to my home airport (TIA) I was about 8 miles out when the approach controller assigned me to 11L and told me a was following a C-172 and I need to slow down 40 kts. I was indicating approximately 125 kts at the time and I was over an area known for some turbulence so I asked him it I could turn 360's to get greater spacing. He informed me that there was another experimental behind me and that I would have to perform several 360's to get behind the experimental. I decided to slow up a bit and proceeded at 80 kts hoping to that there wouldn't be too much turbulence. I changed over to the tower frequency and heard that they were assigning other aircraft to 11R and asked if I could be reassigned to 11R so I could continue my long final without overtaking the C-172. My request was denied. So I slowed even more as the C-172 lumbered in at maybe 70 kts on 2 mile final.

Upon landing and taxing off the runway the trailing experimental landed. I think it was a light sport. So sequencing behind him could have been just as bad as flowing the C-172.

I was a bit frustrated. Many times I have come into the airport and the approach and tower controllers asked me to keep my speed up (160 kts descending) due to traffic behind me. But the controllers never asked the C-172 to keep his speed up at all. In fact a lumbering 2 mile 70 kt final isn't what I call good piloting.

On a good note upon landing there were six F-16's waiting to take the runway and one of the pilots was Shotgun who just had the maiden flight of his RV-8 last week (on the cover of the forum yesterday). Nothing better then to show off an RV to the F-16 pilots (really they are RV wanabee's).

Any similar experiences with slow spam cans.

Yep

Just yesterday I was asked to slow for a Hawker.

I can confirm that F-16 pilots are RV wannabees. Ask me how I know.

Sometimes you're the slow guy, Sometimes they're the slow guy.

designerX said:

Sometimes you're the slow guy, Sometimes they're the slow guy.

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Yep. There are lots of things faster and cooler than an RV, actually, but are out of reach of almost all of us for one reason or another.

Paul,
The aircraft you were following may be practicing an instrument approach. Or unable to keep higher speed which accommodates you. Remember yourself as a student pilot? I found it fun to go slower. Once I tried to keep the speed with a Cub it's good to be sharp in the region of reverse command. Local ATC calls me helicopter pretty often. I also noticed when flying Hudson River Corridor of NY if aircraft self announces as RV, it stirrs an agitation among tour operators. Helicopter drivers often ask RV where are you? I started self announce as fixed wing instead of RV. Peace and prosperity over the River ever after.

You could have requested the overhead....flew up initial over the top of the c172 and then broke at the appropriate point to make the spacing work. Just another tool in the tool bag. Best, Jim

Good practice for Oshkosh or any fly in this summer. Most of us started in a slow plane, so let's not forget where we came from.

70 Knots is approach speed for a Cessna 172. He was there before you, he had the right of way. You're faster. Just because you are faster doesn't mean the "lumbering" Cessna needs to get out of your way. It could've been a student, and IFR approach (as mentioned) or something else. No need to get your undies in a bunch over it. Either way, he was on final at 70 knots before you got there. Suck it up and play ball. Everyone landed safely right?

Interesting feedback

Gents,

Interesting feedback. Let me further explain the situation. I really think the controllers didn't handle the situation well.

TIA has 3 runways, 2 parallel and one cross. The 2 parallel runways were in use. 11L is 10K and 11R is 8K. It is AZ air guard weekend so there are lots of F-16's taking off and landing. This is not unusual for TIA since during the week there are numerous F-16 takeoff and landings. The F-16's can only use 11L because it has the arresting system in case of emergency.

When I landed, right after the C-172 cleared the runway there were several F-16 waiting to take the runway. They had to wait for the C-172, Me and the light sport. However 11R was in use but there wasn't anyone in the pattern landing on it when we all arrived.

True you can fly a C-172 slow, but you can also fly it fast. A 2 mile lumbering straight in final at 70 kts is not a good approach to TIA in my book. The controller could have easily asked the C-172 to keep its speed up and they should have. Better yet they should have assigned the C-172, me and the light sport 11R.

I can fly my RV-7A at 70 kts all day long if I have to (or at least until I run out of fuel or my bladder gives out), but on a turbulent day with a "never flown in small airplane passenger" (which I had with me for this flight) I wouldn't recommend it.

BTW it was the first time I have ever heard on the Tucson ATIS warning of "numerous hawks over 11L, altitude unknown." This just added to the excitement. A little extra maneuvering speed would have been nice, just in case.

Controllers aren't perfect. But as mentioned lumbering 2 mile finals with F-16's, commercial traffic and hot rod RV's just doesn't work well.

Paul, I can certainly understand how you feel and admit I would probably feel the same way under the circumstances you describe.

I was in a Rocket following a Cherokee recently. He was doing touch and goes so I turned base with what I thought should be plenty of room (I was further out than I like) and he then decided to make it a full stop. Still should not have been a problem as he touched down on the first brick...

...Then rolled the entire length of the 5000 foot runway!

...In a Cherokee!

Why do they DO that?

When F-16 pilots are young and bulletproof, they may not all be RV wanna-bes at the moment, but if they're smart they are all RV GONNA-bes ;-)

Worked that way for me.

Pmerems said:

....I decided to slow up a bit and proceeded at 80 kts hoping to that there wouldn't be too much turbulence....

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Paul,

Truth of the matter is, 80 knots is probably better for turbulence penetration than 125 in an RV at pattern altitude. The lower speed is at least 25 knots over stall, the ride will be less rough and there will be less load stress on the airplane and persons. Hitting a vertical column of air is always more jolting at high speed than a realistic lower speed. Of course you don't want to be at 110% of stall.

I know you are thinking Va but that is a top speed limit for load protection - the wing will stall before it is over stressed. Flying slower does not pose a safety compromise, especially when 140% of stall. The ride will be less rough.

Beyond that, your flight is somewhat reminiscent of arriving at OSH behind a 65 hp Piper Cub.

Toobuilder said:

...Then rolled the entire length of the 5000 foot runway!

...In a Cherokee!

Why do they DO that?

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You forgot the rest- he then went into the pilot lounge and complained about the "hot-dogging cowboy in the homebuilt" behind him in the pattern.

Landing SLC a week ago and was put behind a Cherokee. Usually the controllers are aware of RV speeds. This guy in front of me made a 747 pattern and forced the controller to send me back out of the visual approach and circle. This was due to an airliner on a 7 mile final. I don't mind accommodating the controllers and life goes on. I didn't mind until the controller did this 5 times! I was circling for a half an hour for traffic. I always think it's funny to go to TEB or VNY and see real controllers at work spacing aircraft ten times closer than SLC. I really like Salt Lake Center but Approach control has a one track mind. From the sounds of it it must also be a training facility.

you guys are depressing me if you're saying you've flown the F-16 and the RV is equally if not more fun

i'll never get to fly a F-16, so i'd like to keep the fighters on the pedestal they belong on in my mind

Paul... I'm not sure if a lumbering 70 kt final that is two miles long to a runway that is also 2 miles long (11L - 11,000 ft) is that out of line. In my Tiger I would have done it a 75 - 80 kts.

Now, if he'd have done that all the way from A Mountain....

It seems the real problem was the controller not using both 11L and 11R and splitting landing traffic between them. On my trips into TUS I've never worked out which runway they prefer for the smaller planes.

Paul.....I'd have to assume it was a student. I just got my PPL this year, and you have to remember there's a lot going on for a primary student at 70 kts in a C-172 on final. Sure, it might delay you a bit, but I'm sure if it was a student, he was being told the same thing my instructor always told me.... "it doesn't matter that there's traffic behind you....let the tower deal with traffic, you just concentrate on what you have to do....you've been cleared to land....just relax and fly the plane"

bkthomps said:

you guys are depressing me if you're saying you've flown the F-16 and the RV is equally if not more fun

i'll never get to fly a F-16, so i'd like to keep the fighters on the pedestal they belong on in my mind

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Young Viper wingman here. Don't think anyone's saying its more fun. Just a different type of fun.

Totally agree with Tom Valenzia in a previous post. I am a RV9 pilot and not as fast as you 6/7/8 drivers, I'm also a controller and not all controllers are aware of all the capabilities and restrictions of our aircraft types. Maybe we should not expect that too.
I have been told once to vacate right with my tailwheel still well in the air. A simple "unable" cleared the air and made the rest of the runway available to me.

My advice for next time would also be to say "unable 70 knots due to turbulence" and the controller should come back with his back-up plan... Controllers should always have a back-up plan at hand you know

Last night...

This is so timely... Last night we were doing a "Full Moon Fliers" flight from SQL to WLW. Just North of SGD we hear a radio call from NorCal approach. The call was something like "Experimental RV-10 N1234A traffic at your 12 o clock, 5 miles, same direction is a Skylane, closing speed is 50 knots.". The RV pilot calls back, obviously laughing, and says he's looking for traffic. A few seconds later the controller calls back and says the closing speed is now a little less, now 3 miles. Then he gave the RV a vector to overtake to the side. I got the impression the Skylane driver poured on the coals after hearing the initial traffic call, but it wasn't doing a lot of good.

Of course, I was piloting a 172SP, ans with the 30 knot headwind right on the nose, I was making all of 94 knots ground speed.

same but different....

bkthomps said:

you guys are depressing me if you're saying you've flown the F-16 and the RV is equally if not more fun

i'll never get to fly a F-16, so i'd like to keep the fighters on the pedestal they belong on in my mind

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I have flown F-16's for around 8 years now.....the RV-8 can't climb as fast. Has no afterburner, can't go supersonic, doesn't have a pylon to attach any bombs or missiles.....but........when I want to fly to Vegas with the bros, the only approval authority is the wife, LOVE THIS PLANE!

C-152 into Luxemburg!

About 8 years back or so, after I just got my PPL, I took my wife on a shopping trip to Luxemburg in one of the C-152's of our flying club. Most of you will not know Luxemburg Airport, but it's a small/medium sized airport between Belgium and France and has a 4.000 m runway (diversion runway for the space shuttle).

Immediately after I was cleared "final" for landing, by the tower, a "Luxair 747 heavy", at the holding point asked for clearance to line-up for take off. The answer from the tower: "Luxair 747 heavy, negative, wait for the landing Cessna".

After a few minutes, the 747 again asked for take-off clearance. Now the tower sounded annoyed: Luxair 747 heavy, negative sir! I told you,...... wait for the landing Cessna!.....

After a couple of minutes more, I touched down and got off the runway as quick as I could. Immediately after me the 747 lined up and took off with the usual roarrrrrrr of powerrrrrr..... I wondered how many years I could have flown the C-152 on the fuel he just waisted idling his 4 jets at the holding point for about 10 minutes or so............

First come, first served........?

Pilottonny said:

About 8 years back or so, after I just got my PPL, I took my wife on a shopping trip to Luxemburg in one of the C-152's of our flying club. Most of you will not know Luxemburg Airport, but it's a small/medium sized airport between Belgium and France and has a 4.000 m runway (diversion runway for the space shuttle).

Immediately after I was cleared "final" for landing, by the tower, a "Luxair 747 heavy", at the holding point asked for clearance to line-up for take off. The answer from the tower: "Luxair 747 heavy, negative, wait for the landing Cessna".

After a few minutes, the 747 again asked for take-off clearance. Now the tower sounded annoyed: Luxair 747 heavy, negative sir! I told you,...... wait for the landing Cessna!.....

After a couple of minutes more, I touched down and got off the runway as quick as I could. Immediately after me the 747 lined up and took off with the usual roarrrrrrr of powerrrrrr..... I wondered how many years I could have flown the C-152 on the fuel he just waisted idling his 4 jets at the holding point for about 10 minutes or so............

First come, first served........?

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I actually really like your story Tony! It gives me hope that not every decision made in the world is primarily based on money; power; or who is bigger, faster or has the better toys.

Imagine the jet wash you would have possibly encountered had the 747 taken off in front of you! Maybe you would not have flown through it at all but man, what a ride in a 152 you would have had if you would have flown through it. It sounds to me like the controller was aware of this fact and was basing his decision to hold the heavy on this factor, not on money, size or anything else except SAFETY OF FLIGHT FOR ALL INVOLVED!

Too bad you can't dicker over the radio with the heavy pilots. You could make 'em paypal you $50 for a 360.

I came out of the Flyby Pattern at SnF this year in the RV-1 and contacted tower for landing. They told me to keep my crosswind close to get onto downwind because a B-29 was entering downwind on a 45 from the other side. I asked if they wanted me ahead of Fifi, or behind, and the response was immediate ..."DEFINITELY ahead!" they went on to say they'd extend Fifi's downwind to get me down and clear - they didn't want me behind that big bird at all. Yeah, I am guessing that cost the CAF a few gallons of fuel - probably as much as the RV-1 will burn all the way up the east coast.

Paul