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Finally, Squeakers

SMO

Well Known Member
Friend
In the 6 or so hours I have flown my newly purchased RV-4 I have stayed in the circuit making landing after landing after landing. I was comfortable enough with this as I took 10 or so hours training with Mike Seager in the 7. However last night was the first time I was able to consistently squeak it on and keep it reasonable centered (winds were calm). For me the trick was to carry a bit of power through the flare (instead of dumping the power when I had the runway made) and finish up with a tail low wheeler. My ship has a constant speed so when the power is brought to an idle it slows down in a hurry.

If I can do it anyone can!
 
Thanks for the tip Mark, I've been trying to figure out what I've been doing wrong. I guess power on 'till the flair is the trick. Old habits tell me to chop the power when you've got the runway made, but like you said, with a constant speed up front, it slows down and comes down fast.
 
In the 6 or so hours I have flown my newly purchased RV-4.....
If I can do it anyone can!


I hope you are right. This is the next item on my agenda bar the paperwork approval. Out of interest is it a 2 or 3 blader and what is your idle set at?
 
2 blade

This is a two blade Hartzell HC-E2YL-2B hub. My idle is set a bit too low at about 500 rpm. I intend to adjust this up a little next time I have the cowl off.
 
Next challenge

Pulling power on short final tends to de-stabalize an otherwise stable approach. I do it myself, but it generally doesn't make an easy greaser.

When I teach landings, I use my own techniques. I find the longest runway around (10k+, usually military). I tell the student to fly over the runway holding a successively lower altitude for most of its length. Eventually they're holding one foot off the runway and I say lower. "Squeek... hey look we landed" Every one of my student's first landings are always picture perfect.

This is basically the same idea as carrying power through the flare. It keeps everything stable.

Now that you've got squeakers with a flat approach, try pulling power to idle from the perch and touching down on the numbers. If you can do that 9 times out of 10, you got it all figured out.

-Bruce
Flying dweeb
 
Bruce, what is your indicated airspeed on final, and when you're in the flair? I can't seem to find a sweet spot, either I'm too fast and I gotta hold off the runway for a couple hundred feet, or I'm too slow and I've got to keep the power in all the way to the ground.
I'm currently running off a 1200' grass strip, and looking to put in my own > 700 footer.
 
The perch?

pulling power to idle from the perch and touching down on the numbers.

I have been away from flying for a couple of decades but I don't remember the term "perch". Is this the position where you have the runway made but have not started the flare?
 
The Perch

I have been away from flying for a couple of decades but I don't remember the term "perch". Is this the position where you have the runway made but have not started the flare?

Nope... downwind, abeam the numbers
 
Fly the numbers

Bruce, what is your indicated airspeed on final, and when you're in the flair? I can't seem to find a sweet spot, either I'm too fast and I gotta hold off the runway for a couple hundred feet, or I'm too slow and I've got to keep the power in all the way to the ground.
I'm currently running off a 1200' grass strip, and looking to put in my own > 700 footer.

1200' grass, you're doing all right! I've landed an RV-4 only a few times. As I recall (and this is 6yo memory) I used to fly my very nose heavy RV-3 @ 100 mph down wind. 80 on base, 70 on final and 60-70 over the numbers (depending on length and technique). Stall was abrupt and precisely at 55 mph indicated.
 
On a blade of grass...

Mark,
My first RV4 flight was the test hop off my friend Arvil's 1100' grass strip in 96'. I practiced slow flight at altitude and found a power-on, tail-low approach was best for getting it into our strip and made 16 takeoffs and landings that day. Over the next 10 years I found the RV4 to be one of the easiest airplanes to land I have ever flown. There is however a difference between C/S props and FP in planning as the C/S allows you to slow down much better and requires a bit more power on final. The FP acts the same but is much more sensitive to power changes once established.
For asphalt, long runways (with people watching) I always perform wheel landings. This for visibility, rudder control in strong crosswinds and braking. I fly the pattern at 800' AGL (slightly low so I can look up at slower airplanes and can fly it closer-in to the rwy)from a 180 degree overhead when possible, rolling off the perch at 100 mph with a notch of flaps tight-in enough to make the runway with no power. I set my idle at 600 so I can get into the glide at 69 mph with full flaps on final with a healthy sink rate, adding a touch of power and flaring at 60 over the numbers slightly tail-low and easing it up into a wheels landing at touchdown. You can fly it slower for shorter strips, using a full stall 3 point for anything under 1000' with full aft stick and some braking on touchdown. Common mistakes: flaring high, full stall bounce. PIO (pilot induced oscillation) on touchdown, FIG (flying into ground-hard) Too fast float.
1000 more landings and it will be cake!

As Forrest Gump said "You never know what you're gonna get" but with planning and practice you can...

Have fun :)

Rob Ray
HR2
 
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Slower than I thought

1200' grass, you're doing all right! I've landed an RV-4 only a few times. As I recall (and this is 6yo memory) I used to fly my very nose heavy RV-3 @ 100 mph down wind. 80 on base, 70 on final and 60-70 over the numbers (depending on length and technique). Stall was abrupt and precisely at 55 mph indicated.

I set my idle at 600 so I can get into the glide at 69 mph with full flaps on final with a healthy sink rate, adding a touch of power and flaring at 60 over the numbers slightly tail-low and easing it up into a wheels landing at touchdown. HR2

Wow, thats 10 mph slower than my final approach speed - using 80 mph with full flaps and ~1700 rpm (rpm varies significantly at times :eek:). I was taught to use an 80-90 mph approach speed.

I need to practice the approach at idle and will give this a try (poised for the inevitable go-around). Appreciate the write-ups, us newbies need all the help we can get!
 
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wow...

1700rpm !! Dude you're in a climb :).

Seriously, I use 70 mph over the fence solo and 80 with passenger. I use no flaps until I am on very short final and the throttle is idled at or before the numbers (wood prop)I'm sure you've noticed that the sink rate increases significantly as you slow below best glide. So, I try to stay high and fast and bleed the speed to arrive at the correct configuration right at the numbers. This, of course, makes for some brilliant landings. The other 95% of the time, we don't need to talk about :).

John
 
3-point landings

Mark,
Common mistakes: flaring high, full stall bounce. PIO (pilot induced oscillation) on touchdown, FIG (flying into ground-hard) Too fast float.
1000 more landings and it will be cake!

As Forrest Gump said "You never know what you're gonna get" but with planning and practice you can...

Have fun :)

Rob Ray
HR2

Now's my chance to ask for pointers too... in reference to these mistakes, with about 5 RV hours, 5 PA-18 hours, 20,000 Airbus/Boeing hours (not much help :() ....
I think my worst offence while trying to make a reasonable 3 pointer is that I flare a little high, then oscillate a little, and skip slightly several times before the tailwheel settles... my 4 has a fixed pitch and I use full flap, idle, 65 kts target speed over the fence. Wide runways worse than narrow.
Help appreciated. Thanks, Dave
 
Fixed Pitch vs. constant speed

John,

He's talking about 1700 rpm with a CS prop. The difference in sink rate between a CS and FP equipped RV's is tremendous. The CS propped RV is an entirely different airplane on approach. With your wood FP you will glide nicely while the CS prop sinks like a brick. A little extra airspeed with the FP prop will cause you to float like a butterfly down the runway taking forever to lose that little bit of extra speed. Extra airspeed with a CS prop is less relevant as it will quickly bleed off due to the braking action of the prop at idle power.

That leaves the CS propped RV driver with two options - higher airspeed on final without power in a steeper nose down attitude OR come in with a little power perhaps even through the flare - both will arrest the sink rate.

I tend to do both depending on my mood, although admittedly with the latter approach if you need to add power on final, then if the engine quits you will never make the runway.

YMMV...

Rob
 
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Skipping

skip slightly several times before the tailwheel settles

Dave, a comment I saw from Wayne Hadath (rocket driver) is "don't worry if you plane skips, it just means its happy!"

Mike Seager trained me (in his 7, fixed pitch) to keep some power on until the runway is made (1700 - 1800 rpm, 80 - 90 mph on final), then pull power off, flare for a 3 pointer. When it touches, unless you get a big bounce pull the stick all the way back and let it settle (will often skip a bit). In the big bounce scenario push the power in and go around. Mike has more than 10,000 hours training in RVs so I dont know if there is anyone more knowledgable about this subject. I recall him saying he likes to keep some power on (for novices like me anyway) so the approach is flatter and the transition to the flare is not as dramatic.

One of the things I love about this airplane is, when you do get a big bounce, you are sitting there about to come crashing down, you firewall the throttle and it just picks itself right out of the air and takes off. Try that in a 172!

Anyway, I need to go practice landing on the numbers from idle at the "perch".
 
skipping

Thanks Mark.... good stuff. I feel my landings are safe enough and I have no issues keeping it straight so I presume when I get used to the flare height (30 feet different than the 777!) and how much to flare, my initial touchdown will get smoother and hence the skip will disappear. I'm going to pay more attention to my speed since with the FP prop, I don't decelerate much when I pull the power. Have fun, great little machine to fly huh?
 
.............and how much to flare, ............?

With 500 S'cub hrs and zero RV4 hrs if 'how much to flare is problematic can I suggest a chinagraph mark on the canopy that lines up with the horizon when you are on the ground?

I am reading this with interest since my -4 was cleared for test flying as of yesterday. Just waiting on the weather.

PS Are you using FP or CS?
 
With 500 S'cub hrs and zero RV4 hrs if 'how much to flare is problematic can I suggest a chinagraph mark on the canopy that lines up with the horizon when you are on the ground?

I am reading this with interest since my -4 was cleared for test flying as of yesterday. Just waiting on the weather.

PS Are you using FP or CS?

I have been meaning to try that technique!
You must be VERY excited to get airborne in your new machine? English weather can be frustrating I guess.
I have a FP wood prop.
Have a great time test flying your a/c!
Dave
 
skip....

I think the flare is somewhat less pronounced in these airplanes(FP). I think it's more of easing the nose to an approximate 3 pt attitude and using back stick to gradually arrest the descent.

The skip is usually the result of just a few extra knots at touchdown. More than a few and you get the bounce.
I really hate the skip. Sometimes you feel like you did everything perfectly and you still get the little skip. ARGH!!
Also note that a lot of guys use wheel landings because they feel it's hard to get the 3pt'er just right. Amen to that
but we can keep trying.....

John
 
A right smart Collie Dog could do this...

As far as flaring the RV4 (-8,-7,9A, whatever etc not included they have their own forum and fly differently!) The RV4 flare can be practiced by flying down a long runway at 1 foot height power on at 70 mph flying the length of the runway and getting used to the height above ground. The landing sight picture is identical. The -4 stalls without any tail buffeting. Three pointers on grass are easy just holding the sight picture with a constant power setting to touchdown. Short geared RV4's actually touch tailwheel first on a correctly flown short field landing.
Wheels landings can be perfected by flying a 70 mph approach shifting aimpoint from the numbers to 1000' down while simultaneously reducing power and increasing backpressure to the three pointer sight picture. Just as the wheels touch add slight forward pressure and voila' a roll-on squeaker! Have fun!

Smokey
HR2
 
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from the Perch as we will now call it

It was beatiful this morning so I did some TnG's before work (best way to start the day with ~7 patterns in .4). I am comfortable in the -4 now with ~40 hours (solo, aft cg with a passenger needs much work) but working on proficiency.

Found a formula that worked extremely well for me today with about a 8kt crosswind and maybe 3 kt's on the nose (ie, base was with a slow ground speed as it was mostly a 8-10 kt headwind). Will have to see how much this changes with other wind components. I have a wood FP 160 horse plane.

Abeam the numbers at 500 agl, 100mph (right at upper flap speed in my -4). Go to Idle, roll in full flaps holding altitude till 80 mph, begin a circling DW to Base to Final in a constant radius holding 80 mph which is pretty nose down at idle and full flaps (greased brick). This put me consistently 5-10 ft agl over the numbers pulling some what aggresively to get that big nose down attitude into the flare. Didn't seem to float much, just enough time to get the cross control comfortably set up for the x-wind. Squeek on the right wheel, left settled, and off again.

What I liked was that I could make the runway from any point in the pattern. I'm a BIG believer in tight patterns and this worked very well in that regard. However, if you're not comfortable rolling out of the nose down 30-40 degree bank at well under 100 feet this isn't for you. If you can't hold airspeed exactly this isn't for you as there's little margin for getting slow while banked at low altitude.

Just one recipe for those interrested in what worked today in these conditions.
 
Nice writeup, Grant!
I am still building and must resort to flying rented 'cans. My biggest problem with landings are that I can't seem to get in tight enough to fly this sort of pattern. I want to fly tight, but other pilots in the pattern fly HUGE patterns and force me out unless I want to cut them off...

Any thought on how to "wedge" in on a bomber pattern?
 
Nice writeup, Grant!
I am still building and must resort to flying rented 'cans. My biggest problem with landings are that I can't seem to get in tight enough to fly this sort of pattern. I want to fly tight, but other pilots in the pattern fly HUGE patterns and force me out unless I want to cut them off...

Any thought on how to "wedge" in on a bomber pattern?


I have never had to do it but would have NO problem turning base inside of someone else IF they would not have to alter their pattern. IE, if they don't have to go around or extend their already enormous DW because I cut in then I say it's all good (and their pattern is insane to boot). If they complain inform them that their pattern is endangering you, your plane, and most importantly your passengers and you will not tolerate it (which is absolutely true). If they need a mile final to sort it out in a cessna I really am not going to take their criticism very personally if they get steamed. Frankly with the price of gas going up the hardly busy Southern Illinois skies are going to be even clearer so this infrequent issue isn't a big one for me. It's rare someone else is in the pattern.

The problem is when they're not far enough out to cut in but still hold you up forever, I have no solution to this but suggest asking them politely to tighten it up or allow you to cut in. If they're that wide and you really fly a tight pattern you should be able to cut in without effecting their pattern. It'll just be close enough that asking 1st to keep the peace would be a good move. Probably should always try asking 1st to keep it civil.

Best of luck and you can always try to find off peak times to have the pattern to yourself.
 
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