.....smarter-than-me types (pretty much everybody), please mull over this.
V/r,
dr
V/r,
dr
Van's Air Force
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An idea for a hangar lift....
- Thread starter DeltaRomeo
- Start date
David Paule
Well Known Member
A friend of mine suspends his homebuilt, the size of a J-3 but heavier, from the ceiling of his hangar. He welded up two large C-shaped frames. One is positioned under the outboard end of each front strut. A cable runs from each to a pulley on the ceiling, then a pulley at the back of the hangar, and down to a winch. Besides those two cables, he has another for the tailwheel. All three cables are ganged to the same winch drum.
The L frames are welded up from what's probably 6" x 3/8" steel tube, well oversize.
When the homebuilt is raised, which only takes a few moments, it's at least ten feet above the floor.
The advantage of this system is that it leaves the floor available.
The whole hoist was made from scratch, with no analysis. He merely made it stout.
Dave
The L frames are welded up from what's probably 6" x 3/8" steel tube, well oversize.
When the homebuilt is raised, which only takes a few moments, it's at least ten feet above the floor.
The advantage of this system is that it leaves the floor available.
The whole hoist was made from scratch, with no analysis. He merely made it stout.
Dave
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Kyle Boatright
Well Known Member
Why not just bolt a "T" shaped beam to the pads on the lift. The top portion of the "T" would capture the mains and the base of the "T" would capture the tailwheel. The balance should be reasonable and the brace you sketched (or braces anchored the floor) would take care of any balance issues.
A question I have after scanning the website is: "What mechanism(s) does the manufacturer use to lock the lift in the "up" position and what fail safe systems do they have to prevent differential lifting or other potentially scary problems?
A question I have after scanning the website is: "What mechanism(s) does the manufacturer use to lock the lift in the "up" position and what fail safe systems do they have to prevent differential lifting or other potentially scary problems?
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GLPalinkas
Well Known Member
Doug, Don't know if you have ruled this approach out but I have seen old photos of Taylorcraft's and J-3's stacked close together with this method. I can't find any in my library but I know they are there. Here is an example.
[ed. Googling 'cub nose stacking' came up with some interesting ideas! If I chocked it properly I could just use a hoise to raise the tail. Thanks Gary. That might be the ticket.
Another pic: http://cdn.j3-cub.com/forum/attachments/f79/27977-cub-stacker-cubs_stacked.jpg
dr]
[ed. Googling 'cub nose stacking' came up with some interesting ideas! If I chocked it properly I could just use a hoise to raise the tail. Thanks Gary. That might be the ticket.
Another pic: http://cdn.j3-cub.com/forum/attachments/f79/27977-cub-stacker-cubs_stacked.jpg
dr]
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Could work
Bolt a sheave to the bottom of the post. The cable runs from the tail, to a sheave in the roof structure, down to the sheave at the bottom of the post and anchors to the arm on the lift.
Maybe you could locate the lift in such that the tail could be taken thru the lift uprights so the wing trailing edge was near the uprights. Place the mains on the lift pads and cantilever a member across the lift arms to support the tail.
No heavier than the plane is you could probably cut up one auto lift and make two airplane lifts with the post anchored to the floor and wall.
Bolt a sheave to the bottom of the post. The cable runs from the tail, to a sheave in the roof structure, down to the sheave at the bottom of the post and anchors to the arm on the lift.
Maybe you could locate the lift in such that the tail could be taken thru the lift uprights so the wing trailing edge was near the uprights. Place the mains on the lift pads and cantilever a member across the lift arms to support the tail.
No heavier than the plane is you could probably cut up one auto lift and make two airplane lifts with the post anchored to the floor and wall.
Russ McCutcheon
Well Known Member
That's what I was thinking,,, with a little fab work you could have two lifts!
GLPalinkas
Well Known Member
Yep, that photo is what I was thinking. Old guys rule
Make the floor brace like in the photo. Has to be the least expensive route. Let us know what direction you go.
I think Kyle has the right idea, it's impossible to perfectly balance a car on the lift, so they can take quite a bit of moment (bending) from an unbalanced load. The disadvantage is that it's only useful if you put the lift at the back of the hangar and nose the airplane in. Advantage is that you have a nice car lift. Alternately, I'd weld up some easily swappable wheel platforms and rig up a pulley system that would lift the tail at the same time...use some small wire rope (like RV ruder cable).
Kyle, these usually have mechanical rachet locks that automatically engage. No need for braces, as they get anchored pretty solidly to the concrete (which has to be fairly thick, so that's a possible added cost if your slab is wimpy)
All that said, I work with a guy who used to tail tie a cub with a block and tackle as shown above to fit a da-40, citabria, cub and rv (the big kind) in a not overly huge additional hangar.
Since cubs have been put on floats almost as long as there have been cubs, there must be an approved lifting method that is similar to what is done on Cessnas, etc.... 4 lifting rings up on top.
I then would make a simple steel frame that dimensionally matched the locations of the 4 rings and lift it with one of the inexpensive single cable electric hoists.
The whole thing could probably be built for less than $250.
This of course is dependent on one main factor.... that there is a structural point above, that you could lift from. Probably a pretty good chance since 750 lbs really isn't all that high as far as point loads in a structure go.
I then would make a simple steel frame that dimensionally matched the locations of the 4 rings and lift it with one of the inexpensive single cable electric hoists.
The whole thing could probably be built for less than $250.
This of course is dependent on one main factor.... that there is a structural point above, that you could lift from. Probably a pretty good chance since 750 lbs really isn't all that high as far as point loads in a structure go.
gerrychuck
Well Known Member
I've wondered about the possibility of using a single post lift like this one:
http://liftking.ca/index.php?page=lk-p-6000-single-post
These have the advantage of being portable and require no bolting into the floor, etc, plus most run on 110v plug-in power. Seems like it might be possible to rig some type of modification to the lift arms to accommodate an airplane.
http://liftking.ca/index.php?page=lk-p-6000-single-post
These have the advantage of being portable and require no bolting into the floor, etc, plus most run on 110v plug-in power. Seems like it might be possible to rig some type of modification to the lift arms to accommodate an airplane.
I like this idea. If it can balance a car that weighs 3-4 times as much as an RV, it looks like it could be a real cool thing for quite a few hanger owners. Im not sure I would walk under it while someone was moving it around, but it could sure open hangers to more people making it possible to share expenses with more people.
I think I would go with a metal brace to bolt onto the lift arms that captures the front tires, with an arm going back to get the rear tire. (could extend out for storage) Worse case a bit of counterweight but I doubt it will be needed.
No worry about a cable system moving at the same rate as the lift, lift remains as designed. Move adaptor to lift attach, roll plane onto adaptor tie it down and up it goes. Lifts have safetly locks that go in place once it moves up.
The cable scares me for fact of making it move at the same rate as the rest of the plane, get it off a bit and you will be stacking them like that cub is stacked.
No worry about a cable system moving at the same rate as the lift, lift remains as designed. Move adaptor to lift attach, roll plane onto adaptor tie it down and up it goes. Lifts have safetly locks that go in place once it moves up.
The cable scares me for fact of making it move at the same rate as the rest of the plane, get it off a bit and you will be stacking them like that cub is stacked.
Back in the dark ages Piper sold stands for J3's that captured the prop. It
had wheels on them so one could stack airplanes in a hanger. This placed them in a nose down tail up attitude past the cg so they stayed that way. I have seen drawings on the Internet some place. Maybe that would work?
Dave
had wheels on them so one could stack airplanes in a hanger. This placed them in a nose down tail up attitude past the cg so they stayed that way. I have seen drawings on the Internet some place. Maybe that would work?
Dave
Lemmingman
Well Known Member
Doug,
You might have found this, but check this thread and look at post #9. Nice view of how they made the stand. Cant find drawings...still looking, though.
http://www.j3-cub.com/forum/f79/cub-stacker-15207/
You might have found this, but check this thread and look at post #9. Nice view of how they made the stand. Cant find drawings...still looking, though.
http://www.j3-cub.com/forum/f79/cub-stacker-15207/
flyboy1963
Well Known Member
wind - induced by.....?
....just when you least expect it, a King Air decides to do a tight 180 on the ramp in front of your open hangar.
This is bad.
also bad; when winching onto a ramp or lifting, be sure to rig limit devices.....ask the guys who had a 50 cent switch fail, and continued winching the plane right into the back of the hangar! ( same goes for 'up'.)
Now they have a mechanical disconnect that pulls the power plug if it travels beyond the limit. Simple. saves $$$$$$$$$ (and bad feelings.)
....just when you least expect it, a King Air decides to do a tight 180 on the ramp in front of your open hangar.
This is bad.
also bad; when winching onto a ramp or lifting, be sure to rig limit devices.....ask the guys who had a 50 cent switch fail, and continued winching the plane right into the back of the hangar! ( same goes for 'up'.)
Now they have a mechanical disconnect that pulls the power plug if it travels beyond the limit. Simple. saves $$$$$$$$$ (and bad feelings.)
I don't think that you would have any issue with any of the proposed scenarios.
These lifts can withstand a considerable amount of unbalanced loading - when I was working in a garage, I remember seeing cars lifted (to full height!) that were balanced on one set of legs; the opposite end could be lifted off of the pads by hand.
A few thoughts:
- I'd be hesitant to add the complexity of a cable system to lift the tail, and don't think it's really necessary. A T-shaped bracket (build solidly but not too heavily) would do the trick.
- Most of these lifts use only one motor (two vertical lead screws connected by a chain) so you don't have to worry about uneven lifting.
- I would try to reverse the arrangement so that the posts are behind the wings - better balance and a shorter arm on your tailwheel holder. As drawn, you may be well served to balance the other side of the lift with a little bit of sand. This may eliminate the need for braces to the hangar wall.
I'd be glad to help with the math if you need to get down to a better level of detail.
These lifts can withstand a considerable amount of unbalanced loading - when I was working in a garage, I remember seeing cars lifted (to full height!) that were balanced on one set of legs; the opposite end could be lifted off of the pads by hand.
A few thoughts:
- I'd be hesitant to add the complexity of a cable system to lift the tail, and don't think it's really necessary. A T-shaped bracket (build solidly but not too heavily) would do the trick.
- Most of these lifts use only one motor (two vertical lead screws connected by a chain) so you don't have to worry about uneven lifting.
- I would try to reverse the arrangement so that the posts are behind the wings - better balance and a shorter arm on your tailwheel holder. As drawn, you may be well served to balance the other side of the lift with a little bit of sand. This may eliminate the need for braces to the hangar wall.
I'd be glad to help with the math if you need to get down to a better level of detail.
G3i Ignition
Well Known Member
Thomas's lift,
Built this for $3,010.00. It was a fun project. Runs on 12 volt battery.
Built this for $3,010.00. It was a fun project. Runs on 12 volt battery.
Update to the hangar lift idea:
Brown line is a steel channel structure that runs back to the tailwheel, bolted to the car lift. Gray square is a concrete counterweight that can be moved fore/aft and bolted into place. 2-post 9,000 pound car lift is $1,300-$1,600 and has all the modern locking safety features. Channel removable w/a wheel on the 'concrete end' for rolling around the hangar (for when you need to lift a car for maintenance. Move the weight to the 'RV position' in the hottest parts of the summer and 'Cub position' in the coldest parts of the winter.
The lift is bolted both the floor and the hangar frame via crossbeam.
Thoughts?
Brown line is a steel channel structure that runs back to the tailwheel, bolted to the car lift. Gray square is a concrete counterweight that can be moved fore/aft and bolted into place. 2-post 9,000 pound car lift is $1,300-$1,600 and has all the modern locking safety features. Channel removable w/a wheel on the 'concrete end' for rolling around the hangar (for when you need to lift a car for maintenance. Move the weight to the 'RV position' in the hottest parts of the summer and 'Cub position' in the coldest parts of the winter.
The lift is bolted both the floor and the hangar frame via crossbeam.
Thoughts?
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Brantel
Well Known Member
Brown line is a steel channel structure that runs back to the tailwheel, bolted to the car lift. Gray square is a concrete counterweight that can be moved fore/aft and bolted into place. 2-post 9,000 pound car lift is $1,300-$1,600 and has all the modern locking safety features. Channel removable w/a wheel on the 'concrete end' for rolling around the hangar (for when you need to lift a car for maintenance. Move the weight to the 'RV position' in the hottest parts of the summer and 'Cub position' in the coldest parts of the winter.
The lift is bolted both the floor and the hangar frame via crossbeam.
Thoughts?
Stupid idea deleted...
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Mike S
Senior Curmudgeon
Brown line is a steel channel structure that runs back to the tailwheel, bolted to the car lift. Gray square is a concrete counterweight that can be moved fore/aft and bolted into place. 2-post 9,000 pound car lift is $1,300-$1,600 and has all the modern locking safety features. Channel removable w/a wheel on the 'concrete end' for rolling around the hangar (for when you need to lift a car for maintenance. Move the weight to the 'RV position' in the hottest parts of the summer and 'Cub position' in the coldest parts of the winter.
The lift is bolted both the floor and the hangar frame via crossbeam.
Thoughts?
Perfect. I would lean towards using sandbags on a plate of some sorts. Easier to handle (esp. if you add a handle!), and you won't need much weight. Depending on the way the pads attach to the lift, you may be able to make the whole thing triangular - two long beams that are attached at the rear by your tailwheel pad.
Keep in mind, if you balance it perfectly, lifting the platform w/out the plane would result in the same forces as if you were lifting the plane with no balancing weight.
N546RV
Well Known Member
What would be really cool would be to have the counterweight in some kind of track with a locking mechanism. For each plane that goes on there, calculate the proper moment arm and mark it on the track. Need to change planes on the lift? No problem, just unlock the block, slide to new position, lock in place again, and you're in business. Need to lift the platform alone? Slide the block to a neutral position.
Of course, if it's only ever expected to be used for a Cub, this might well be overkill.
What would be really cool would be to have the counterweight in some kind of track with a locking mechanism. For each plane that goes on there, calculate the proper moment arm and mark it on the track. Need to change planes on the lift? No problem, just unlock the block, slide to new position, lock in place again, and you're in business. Need to lift the platform alone? Slide the block to a neutral position.
Of course, if it's only ever expected to be used for a Cub, this might well be overkill.
If it's worth doing, it's worth overdoing.
Sort of what I was thinking WRT sandbags. That is what i do with a motorcycle trailer to control tongue weight.
I'd balance it so that half of the tailwheel weight was accounted for - basically you're never more than +/- 20lbs off at the tailwheel point.
Brown line is a steel channel structure that runs back to the tailwheel, bolted to the car lift. Gray square is a concrete counterweight that can be moved fore/aft and bolted into place. 2-post 9,000 pound car lift is $1,300-$1,600 and has all the modern locking safety features. Channel removable w/a wheel on the 'concrete end' for rolling around the hangar (for when you need to lift a car for maintenance. Move the weight to the 'RV position' in the hottest parts of the summer and 'Cub position' in the coldest parts of the winter.
The lift is bolted both the floor and the hangar frame via crossbeam.
Thoughts?
Your brace going to the wall is overkill, the lift is made to handle a significant imbalance, and you won't be giving it an imbalance at all...though I suspect you could put all the weight of an RV-10 onto fully extended arms and have no issue with it tipping over.
If you post dimensions of the two wheel locations and the CG of the Cub, myself and other mechanical (i.e. real) engineers will chime in with the weight required to balance it and maybe even a required channel size for the tailwheel bar.
The quicker you can make the swap to car-mode, the happier you'll be...having a lift is GREAT.
Doug,
Your welcome to come look/test with mine. The only difference is mine has the cross brace over the top.
If possible I would look at a 220 single phase unit if you have the circuit available.
I also have a 110 volt 4 post and they are extremely slow.
You can find used ones on Craigslist all day long I paid $1,000.00 for my two post.
Also keep in mind, the off set two post lift is designed to carry 3/4 of the weight aft of the post
Tim
Your welcome to come look/test with mine. The only difference is mine has the cross brace over the top.
If possible I would look at a 220 single phase unit if you have the circuit available.
I also have a 110 volt 4 post and they are extremely slow.
You can find used ones on Craigslist all day long I paid $1,000.00 for my two post.
Also keep in mind, the off set two post lift is designed to carry 3/4 of the weight aft of the post
Tim
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Kyle Boatright
Well Known Member
If anyone else is considering doing this, check Craigs List. 2 Post Lifts come up there all the time at reasonable prices.
Need a little info
Doug,
I was talking about this with a structural analyst at work today, we are both mechanical engineers. Based on some rough back of the envelope calcs we think the two post lift with the bar to grab the tail wheel can work without the need for a counter weight or bracing to the wall. If you can provide me with a couple of pieces of data I'd be more than happy to crunch some numbers and come up with a design, it would be a fun distraction from the everyday grind.
1. What is the weight of the plane ,measured at the mains?
2. What is the distance from the CG to the mains?
3. What is the distance from the mains to the tailwheel?
With this data we can size the beams needed to hold the plane and confirm that extra bracing isn't needed. If necessary, bracing to the hangar wall or the floor is probably better than a counter weight. if you use a counter weight to remove the moment load then you will only be able to put the lift up when there is an airplane on it, by bracing the lift to the floor or the wall the lift could be moved up and out of the way whether or not there is an airplane on it.
Doug,
I was talking about this with a structural analyst at work today, we are both mechanical engineers. Based on some rough back of the envelope calcs we think the two post lift with the bar to grab the tail wheel can work without the need for a counter weight or bracing to the wall. If you can provide me with a couple of pieces of data I'd be more than happy to crunch some numbers and come up with a design, it would be a fun distraction from the everyday grind.
1. What is the weight of the plane ,measured at the mains?
2. What is the distance from the CG to the mains?
3. What is the distance from the mains to the tailwheel?
With this data we can size the beams needed to hold the plane and confirm that extra bracing isn't needed. If necessary, bracing to the hangar wall or the floor is probably better than a counter weight. if you use a counter weight to remove the moment load then you will only be able to put the lift up when there is an airplane on it, by bracing the lift to the floor or the wall the lift could be moved up and out of the way whether or not there is an airplane on it.
I have a couple of lifts like that, and you would be more than safe without the rack and counterweight. The lifts rarely have the weight centered, and buying a 9000# lift for a 1000# plane should give you all the confidence you need.
I would go for the cable system, it would be simple, cheap, and easy to move out of the way.
Once you have a lift, you will be amazed how often you use it. We have had everything from 4 wheelers, lawnmowers, go-carts, a fuselage, the list goes on. You can even use them for a bench with a piece of plywood!
I would go for the cable system, it would be simple, cheap, and easy to move out of the way.
Once you have a lift, you will be amazed how often you use it. We have had everything from 4 wheelers, lawnmowers, go-carts, a fuselage, the list goes on. You can even use them for a bench with a piece of plywood!
Texas Flyer
Active Member
Plane hangar lift
Did anyone actually develop Doug's idea successfully?
Pics?
Any other ideas for less than $3k?
Someone have a used Aero-lift (taildragger) for sale?
Did anyone actually develop Doug's idea successfully?
Pics?
Any other ideas for less than $3k?
Someone have a used Aero-lift (taildragger) for sale?
scsmith
Well Known Member
I was a bit slow at noticing how old this thread is.
A couple of thoughts:
1) a few folks suggested that counterweight and bracing not needed, given that cars are not often well balanced. But looking at this model lift, there is not much in the way of bracing or legs that could carry any moment reaction to the ground. So I hope people DO brace the towers to a wall appropriately. Beyond that the only question would be how much moment the sliding piece in the tower can tolerate without binding.
2) For those of us with T-hangars, it would be best to be able to push the tail between the towers until the towers are close to the wing trailing edge. Unfortunately, that puts the airplane CG farther from the towers, further aggravating the moment/balance problem.
A couple of thoughts:
1) a few folks suggested that counterweight and bracing not needed, given that cars are not often well balanced. But looking at this model lift, there is not much in the way of bracing or legs that could carry any moment reaction to the ground. So I hope people DO brace the towers to a wall appropriately. Beyond that the only question would be how much moment the sliding piece in the tower can tolerate without binding.
2) For those of us with T-hangars, it would be best to be able to push the tail between the towers until the towers are close to the wing trailing edge. Unfortunately, that puts the airplane CG farther from the towers, further aggravating the moment/balance problem.
Johnnybgoode
Well Known Member
Considered it...
But I ended up being able to fit a Mooney and a -4 in my hangar through judicial offset of the Mooney (like right over against the wall) and backing the RV in with the tail sitting up on the wing of the Mooney on moving blankets. It's tight, and the floor space would be nice to have, but this way I'm only ever about 5 minutes from getting one or the other out and going flying. Oh, and it cost quite a bit less than installing a lift.
Patrick
But I ended up being able to fit a Mooney and a -4 in my hangar through judicial offset of the Mooney (like right over against the wall) and backing the RV in with the tail sitting up on the wing of the Mooney on moving blankets. It's tight, and the floor space would be nice to have, but this way I'm only ever about 5 minutes from getting one or the other out and going flying. Oh, and it cost quite a bit less than installing a lift.
Patrick
Can you post a picture of this arrangement? Inquiring minds...
Scale planform template AC
When planing hangar size and door placement and choosing what tenants AC might be most compatible I found it quite useful to make proper scale planform cut outs of the aircraft in consideration. If you have hangar blue prints just scale your AC planforms to the same. Photo copiers that have a % enlarge /decrease function are helpful with this, along with digital calipers and a calculator. Likewise it lets you quickly visualize various parking arrangements.
When planing hangar size and door placement and choosing what tenants AC might be most compatible I found it quite useful to make proper scale planform cut outs of the aircraft in consideration. If you have hangar blue prints just scale your AC planforms to the same. Photo copiers that have a % enlarge /decrease function are helpful with this, along with digital calipers and a calculator. Likewise it lets you quickly visualize various parking arrangements.
scsmith
Well Known Member
Modifying an auto lift for a hangar lift
These things are about 1/10 the price of an Aero Lift and seem like it would be pretty straightforward to modify one. The one drawback I see offhand is needing 240V. My hangar has 120V 20A, which I bet is pretty typical.
So, I'd like to revive this old thread and hear from anyone that knows of one of these things being adapted to lift an airplane?
These things are about 1/10 the price of an Aero Lift and seem like it would be pretty straightforward to modify one. The one drawback I see offhand is needing 240V. My hangar has 120V 20A, which I bet is pretty typical.
So, I'd like to revive this old thread and hear from anyone that knows of one of these things being adapted to lift an airplane?
Pilot135pd
Well Known Member
Yes please, let's revive this thread with pictures of what's been done during the last decade. I'm reminded of buying a lift (and modifying it for the plane) every time I change the oil in the F150 or change Husqvarna mower blades.
