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What's your legal IFR/EFIS setup?

ops_geek

Member
I've been trying hard to get my head around how to equip an experimental for legal IFR flight. Would love to have WAAS, but I am having a hard time understanding how a TSO unit like a 430W will interface with an experimental Dynon or MGL EFIS. Do they really interact with each other during an approach or is one of the two pieces of equipment just along for the ride to keep you legal?

What is your setup for legal IFR?
 
I'm only in the planning stages of my panel, but to my knowledge the only "interfacing" that goes on between a TSO'd unit like a GTN650 and an EFIS like a Skyview system is that the GPS will drive the HSI on the EFIS. There may be better integration with a G3X panel (such as passing flight plans around), but I'm set on Dynon and so I can't really comment on anything else.
 
I?m in the middle of learning how my Skyview & 650 play with each other. Having spent 2 days with Jesse Saint, he knows how to make it work very well, I?ll tell u it?s AMAZING. Fly the plan using Skyview and switch to the approach with the 650. With the push of a button. Still learning, but it flies the GPS or ILS approach down to the runway. I?m sure others can tell u more.
 
There's no special magic for certified avionics. RS-232 and ARINC work the same regardless. Most vendors will provide you schematics in their documentation. Their installation instructions will answer your questions. They are free to download to anyone.

For all the certified GPS's, the RS-232 output will provide Lat/Lon and ARINC will provide all the other data your autopilot and EFIS will use.

If this isn't really your bag of tea, then I would suggest an AFS/Dynon Preconfigured panel or working with Airtronics or SteinAir to design a panel.
 
IFR Setup

Avidyne IFD-440 interfaced to Dynon Skyview via ARINC-429 and to a Garmin GDU-375 MFD via RS-232/MapMX. Garmin G5 for backup attitude. The Avidyne drives the HSI on the Dynon and the Dynon will receive and use the Avidyne's flight plan on the Dynon map. The Garmin also receives and uses the Avidyne's flight plan on it's map
 
Fly the plan using Skyview and switch to the approach with the 650. With the push of a button.

Thanks...this gets to the heart of my question. What is the role of each piece of equipment during a flight? Are you using "certified" position data during the enroute phase or are you using the "unofficial, situational awareness" data from the SkyView and then switching to the "certified" data, and database, for the approach phase?

Seems like the EFIS equipment is totally capable but you need the magic paper (TSO) to be legal? Is there just a $7,000 cover charge to get in to The Legal IFR Club?
 
Thanks...this gets to the heart of my question. What is the role of each piece of equipment during a flight? Are you using "certified" position data during the enroute phase or are you using the "unofficial, situational awareness" data from the SkyView and then switching to the "certified" data, and database, for the approach phase?

Seems like the EFIS equipment is totally capable but you need the magic paper (TSO) to be legal? Is there just a $7,000 cover charge to get in to The Legal IFR Club?

I know of SkyView/GTN-650 owners who will argue over proper proceedure. I?ll just share what I do:
- I have configured the SkyView to use the flight plan provided via the GTN-650. I do this because I wanted to maintain consistency for IFR work, and not be switching between the SkyView flightplan and the GTN-650 flightplan.
- The SkyView WiFi interface does a magical job of allow you do upload your flightplan from your iPad ForeFlight. Great for VFR but unfortunately since Garmin is a spoiled brat you cannot upload it to the GTN-650 without purchasing a grossly overpriced Garmin add on box. As most cross country flight plans have perhaps 3-4 points, I just manually load the plan into the GTN-650 as the engine warms up. Activate the plan and there it is on the SkyView - easy to verify.

Note - I know the G3X can do the transfer from ForeFlight then the GTN-650. I choose the SkyView over the G3X so no need to badger me on this.

The SkyView provides all the needed IFR GPS backup you will need if the GTN-650 dies. Not legal but it will get you home.

Note - the SkyView displays the approach, STAR, SID or arrival from the GTN-650. SkyView does not have this in its NAV database. You can manually put points in and create an artificial GPS approach but again, illegal as well as not practical.

If you want to go old school, skip the GTN-650 and fly VORs, LOC and ILS approaches. I offer however I do not consider this a valid option as the places I fly rarely have ILS, but tend to have at least one GPS approach.

Rumors fly about Dynon coming out with its own integrated TSO GPS navigator - but just rumors. We can only hope as this would be a much needed shot in the arm for healthy competition.

Carl
 
I've been trying hard to get my head around how to equip an experimental for legal IFR flight. Would love to have WAAS, but I am having a hard time understanding how a TSO unit like a 430W will interface with an experimental Dynon or MGL EFIS. Do they really interact with each other during an approach or is one of the two pieces of equipment just along for the ride to keep you legal?

What is your setup for legal IFR?

All you need for the perfect IFR panel for the 8...

IMG_0314%2C%20Rainwater-L.jpg
 
I have the Flightstream 510 chip plugged into my 650 and love it. I download my database updates to Garmin Pilot and then it automatically connects to the FS 510 and uploads the database changes. I never have to touch the chip. Yes it's expensive, but so is everything else. I never use the Dynon GPS or flight planning. It's all on the 650. I basically use the Dynon as a HSI and moving map, along with the other engine and sensor stuff. Foreflight automatically connects to the FS 510 so I just upload my flight plans directly to the 650 with a one button touch on the ipad.
 
Thanks...this gets to the heart of my question. What is the role of each piece of equipment during a flight? Are you using "certified" position data during the enroute phase or are you using the "unofficial, situational awareness" data from the SkyView and then switching to the "certified" data, and database, for the approach phase?

Seems like the EFIS equipment is totally capable but you need the magic paper (TSO) to be legal? Is there just a $7,000 cover charge to get in to The Legal IFR Club?

Do you already have an instrument rating?

To over simplify,

The EFIS is fist and foremost a flight instrument. Air speed, attitude and altitude.

The TSO'd GPS NAV units (such as GTN 650 or 750 or G430W ) have the capability to accept legal and current approach DATA BASES with way points and the units can and will automatically sequence the waypoints on a selected approach . These units can output to a stand alone CDI or to the CDI displayed on most of the sport grade EFIS units.

If you do an IFR rating it will be easier to get your head around what you want in your panel. In general, motels and rental cars or commercial flights and some tie down fees are more cost effective than keeping a state of the art panel , and rating and every database up to date and legal. Just a matter of how much money you want to spend and what your priorities are.

An IFR rating after you have your private licence is a great learning experience.
Then you can make a more informed decision just how much money you want to sink into your panel.

I will no doubt get flamed beyond what nomex protection can offer for this.
With 2020 ADS-B deadline approaching, you really can't build a low cost panel unless you are in remote area and only want to fly outside of controlled airspace.
And low cost IFR, does not exist.
 
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I will no doubt get flamed beyond what nomex protection can offer for this.
With 2020 ADS-B deadline approaching, you really can't build a low cost panel unless you are in remote area and only want to fly outside of controlled airspace.
And low cost IFR, does not exist.

No real flame here as your basic premise is right on the money. Literally right on "the money".

I will suggest that ADSB compliance is NOT the cost driver in a current IFR panel. In fact I would suggest that, in an amateur-built aircraft. ADSB compliance is relatively cheap. A GRT SafeFly GPS feeding position to any UAT or Mode S/ES transponder isn't expensive, especially if you're starting from scratch and buying a transponder anyway.

Your point about the certified navigator being in place to provide a certified navigation database, and the "experimental" EFIS device being the device to display the nav data are really spot-on. It really IS that simple. Sure, modern EFIS gear will do more, but at the core of it all is that simple solution of the certified navigator's data being displayed on nice EFIS glass.
 
What he said

I have the Flightstream 510 chip plugged into my 650 and love it. I download my database updates to Garmin Pilot and then it automatically connects to the FS 510 and uploads the database changes. I never have to touch the chip. Yes it's expensive, but so is everything else. I never use the Dynon GPS or flight planning. It's all on the 650. I basically use the Dynon as a HSI and moving map, along with the other engine and sensor stuff. Foreflight automatically connects to the FS 510 so I just upload my flight plans directly to the 650 with a one button touch on the ipad.

IMHO, why not just use the 650 for everything. Either Foreflight or Garmin pilot talks to and from the 650 for creating flight plan and sending or recieving changes enroute. It sure it easy to navigate, amend and store flight plans
I have GRT stuff but it all operates about the same. Enroute and terminal on the 650, load and/or activate approach and when cleared for approach hit whatever your systems button is called to fly the approach.
Seems to me like there is a lot of overthinking this simple procedure. Kind of like reinventing the mouse trap.
 
To your specific example of the Dynon Skyview and a 430W, I have that installed in my plane and actually shot a coupled approach this morning to 400' breakout with it.

The Dynon autopilot will follow commands from any certified navigator that can output commands to an HSI/CDI. In the case of the 430W it is connected to the Dynon ARINC 429, which is connected to the Skyview system. The 430W is the legal navigator that contains the approach, you load the approach in that box and activate it, and it starts sending guidance to the ARINC 429. On the Skyview you can then select which source you want the on-screen HSI to pay attention to for its display (Skyview, 430W, or other, or none) to show the 430W data, and bingo there it is, to enable you to legally hand-fly the approach based on the CDI and Glideslope displayed on the Dynon screen, sourced from the certified 430W. Once it's on the HSI, you can then select the autopilot to follow that as well, for a coupled approach all the way down. Works like a charm, completely legal.

For the approach plate, you can do the old paper charts or you can download the electronic version from a myriad of sources to display on a device in the cockpit. I use Seattle Avionics to put all the plates on a USB stick that is plugged into my Skyview. Then you can pull up the chart on your Skyview screen and it shows your airplane geo-referenced over the chart as you fly the approach.

As to how it's actually used, that's up to interpretation and pilot choice. In my case this morning it was 36 miles from my home private strip to my destination, so I picked up my clearance via phone and took off, with an assigned altitude and heading. I activated the autopilot to climb to 5000' and turn to 280 degrees, then shortly approach gave me 320 degrees for vectors to the RNAV, and then a bit later I offered to intercept at the initial and track inbound which they cleared me for. At that point I activated my approach for the initial rather than vectors, and switched the autopilot to NAV to follow commands from the 430W to go direct to the initial, and armed VNAV for the autopilot to track the glideslope once it was captured. Then you just sit back and watch the pretty blinking lights, making sure the system is doing what it's supposed to.
 
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Fly the plan using Skyview and switch to the approach with the 650.

Why not just fly the entire plan with the 650 (or, as in my case, the 430W)? Why have two separate flight plans that are loaded and, in a sense, active in two different devices?

Reason I say this...I found it was (at least until a few interface changes were made by Dynon) very, very easy to have different parts of the EFIS (like the Map vs. the HSI) taking their data from different sources, which can lead to some serious confusion.

I use the 430W for flight planning, and drives both the map and the PFD pages. No need to switch at what can be a busy time in the cockpit.

Unless perhaps there is data in the Skyview that you want/need to include in your flight plan that isn't in the Garmin? But then, doesn't that make IFR trickier, since now you're using data that isn't in a certified device?

VFR, of course, totally different...
 
Why not just fly the entire plan with the 650.
My instrument rating is dated 1995, pre-GPS. I loaded my plane with the equipment, now experimenting with how it works. Totally open to yours and others suggestions, recommendations. Im kind of on my own as the local CFIIs are teaching in old 150s & 172s, with no glass. I havent found the ?How To? manual, or the knowledgable pilot to fly with me locally. Trying to get logical & efficient using them together.
 
Do you already have an instrument rating?

........And low cost IFR, does not exist.

Low cost IFR may not exist, but it doesn't have to cost an arm and 2 legs.

I've flown a lot of IFR in the last 12 years in my -7A with a G3X (non-touch) with autopilot, an SL-30 (which can fly coupled ILS approaches and a Garmin 155XL for enroute and approach IFR GPS nav(which I bought for $900 on eBay and had Garmin refurbish it for their flat $400 fee). Backup radio is a handheld iCom A24. A 430 or 650 would be nice, but doesn't really give much more capability. I added a GDL-82 for ADS-B and got the rebate to reduce the cost.

In a corporate operation I was in, we did a study on upgrading to a WAAS unit in a King Air. That bill would have been over $50,000, But it would have only gotten us in to land only 2 more times per year in 400 hours of operation than we could have gotten in with just the non-WAAS GPS and ILS capability we already had. The verdict: WAAS GPS wasn't worth the cost to upgrade if you didn't already have it.

Of course, it all depends on your typical destinations, which, for me, extend into the NYC area and upper midwest from the southeast. For me, WAAS isn't worth it and I'll stick with my current setup. YMMV
 
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Legal IFR in an experimental aircraft

Been struggling with the same issue about what is legal and what equipment to buy. As far as I can tell the controlling regulation is FAR 91.205. Parts a), b) and c) apply. Its all pretty vauge. The next step for me is to figure out what kind of IFR flying I am likely to want to do. Advancing years and a few ? I don?t need to have that experience again? past events convinces me that I will only use the rating in the RV-7A to get out of trouble and ?gentleman?s IFR? so spending eye watering funds on a Garmin navigator system for coupled approaches down to legal minimums that are likely to scare my passenger ( and me) doesn?t fit into that scenario. I am leaning towards having a good VOR/ILS /GS radio that is TSO?d (GNC255) and dual Skyview HDX. I am comfortable hand flying an ILS approach to my minimums ( 600 ft+) If I have missed something in the regs someone please let me know. Going out and staying current with the hood in VFR is still important so having real capability for crosschecking from the old technology to the HDX seems prudent. Another concern is what to do when VOR and ILS go away. My plan is to face that problem when it actually happens - if I am still willing to fly IFR or at night at that time.

KT
 
I've been studying this a bit recently.

Take the GNS-430W/SkyView set up you mentioned (this is what I'm installing in my RV-8). As far as "IFR Legal", and just dealing with the "navigation equipment suitable for the route of flight", you've got an HSI that is driven by a full function VOR, or a WAAS capable GPS, and an annunciator indicating which means is driving the HSI. The 430W integrates with the SkyView system via an ARINC-429 interface module.

So, this is just like the Cessna 172 with the King KX-155/KI-209/KLN-94 and an annunciator panel many of us learned to fly instrument approaches on, only better!
 
You are only required to have IFR certified navigation equipment necessary for the route being flown enroute, and the approach you are conducting at you point of landing. That means an SL30 is all you need at a minimum to legally fly IFR (at the lowest price point). You can?t do a GPS based approach with this, but you can do a VOR or ILS approach for your arrival. With nothing but an SL30, or something similar, you can still fly GPS enroute if you have a handheld GPS, or some other non-IFR approved GPS for the enroute portion, IF you are in a radar contact environment. If the ATC radar goes TU for some reason, you need to be able to revert to an enroute IFR approved navigation source (VOR in this case) for the remainder of the flight, and then be able to have the necessary equipment to conduct the approach at your destination (VOR or ILS in this case). Of course, this equipment doesn?t help with your looming ADSB requirement..

I dont have any VHF navigation equipment on my new RV8. I have a single screen G3X Touch, G5 backup, GNS 625 for my IFR navigation and ADSB source, and 2 Garmin GTR200/20R com radios (plus the required GTX45R ADSB transponder). Garmin offered - and still offers- a deal on the 625 when purchased with the G3X Touch. I can?t do an ILS, but that?s the only difference. The 625 is an IFR approved enroute and approach certified navigation instrument. I haven?t been to an airport yet that doesn?t offer an LPV approach to an ILS runway, with usually the same minimums as the ILS, and I can fly it coupled if I want, so any difference is transparent. I didn?t have to install a VOR/ILS antenna, and I can still fly enroute VOR navigation if I want to using my 625 (I don?t usually file that way, but I can). This panel, which I built, came with a price tag of around $23K a year ago. You can definitly do it cheaper with a VFR GPS, a Stratus for ADSB, and an SL30, but the functionality with a coupled autopilot makes IFR flying a little more comfortable if everything is integrated. Good luck with you choice. Be advised, most of us don?t do a huge amount of IFR flying, so spending tons of money to give you dispatch reliability like an airline is very expensive. I have personal minimums that would never require 200 & 1/2 ILS minimums, even though I could still legally do that with most LPV minimums. I just choose not to fly when the weather is forecast to be that low....
 
I think the answer may be different depending on where you reside and intend to fly. The federal register in 2016 identified phase 1 (2016 - 2020) and phase2 (2021 - 2025) retirement of VOR facilities - mostly in central and eastern US- very few in the western US. The remaining VOR?s will provide a core capability for navigation across the US above 5000ft AGL.
Being legally capable and meeting the FAR?s is important. Being able to safely complete the flight under conditions of equipment failure is essential. It may be difficult to figure the ?out? if totally dependant on GPS - but in the midwest and eastern seaboard there may not be an alternative at the end of phase 2.

KT
 
IFR

I'm VFR rated only now as is my RV 7A. I've been thinking of upgrading the panel to IFR and working on my rating..... (I would be flying the "Gentlemens IFR only" someone referred to). It was suggested to me in the past to change out the SL 40 with an SL30 which would give me ILS capability but I've decided against that because the ILS's are apparently over time being phased out.

It gets confusing trying to hone in on what I would need! One post said to focus on the certified GPS source and work out from there. I see many references to the garmin 625 and 650. Since my aircraft is already built and flying, it seems the GTN 650 might be a better choice for me. I have some questions.

My current panel is equipped as follows:
EFIS & EMS Dynon D 100 and D120
Transponder Garmin GTX 327
Radio Garmin SL 40 (comm only)
Autopilot Dynon servos and control head
ADSB Uavionix ECHO

It seems to me that if I went with the GTN650 I would be able to remove the
SL 40. What about the transponder.... will my gtx 327 work with the 650? And ADSB.... I'm assuming the ECHO will not work with the garmin stuff. So how do I get ADSB out? Will the 650 talk to my EFIS and will my autopilot still work or am I looking at changing that out too?
 
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You are only required to have IFR certified navigation equipment necessary for the route being flown enroute, and the approach you are conducting at you point of landing. That means an SL30 is all you need at a minimum to legally fly IFR (at the lowest price point). You can’t do a GPS based approach with this, but you can do a VOR or ILS approach for your arrival. With nothing but an SL30, or something similar, you can still fly GPS enroute if you have a handheld GPS, or some other non-IFR approved GPS for the enroute portion, IF you are in a radar contact environment. If the ATC radar goes TU for some reason, you need to be able to revert to an enroute IFR approved navigation source (VOR in this case) for the remainder of the flight, and then be able to have the necessary equipment to conduct the approach at your destination (VOR or ILS in this case).

Nice job Scott. This is exactly how I understand the rules, and the radar caveats there in.

That said, in my mind, the real crux of being IFR is getting down ie the approach aspect. Choose your certed IFR gear to accomplish this for the approaches you plan to fly. For me, a simpleton, I'll stick to that same piece of gear to do my enroute as well. In my case a GNS480, backed up by an SL30, backed up by the GRTs if SHTF, backed up by steam & whiskey compass.
 
I'm VFR rated only now as is my RV 7A. I've been thinking of upgrading the panel to IFR and working on my rating..... (I would be flying the "Gentlemens IFR only" someone referred to). It was suggested to me in the past to change out the SL 40 with an SL30 which would give me ILS capability but I've decided against that because the ILS's are apparently over time being phased out.

It gets confusing trying to hone in on what I would need! One post said to focus on the certified GPS source and work out from there. I see many references to the garmin 625 and 650. Since my aircraft is already built and flying, it seems the GTN 650 might be a better choice for me. I have some questions.

My current panel is equipped as follows:
EFIS & EMS Dynon D 100 and D120
Transponder Garmin GTX 327
Radio Garmin SL 40 (comm only)
Autopilot Dynon servos and control head
ADSB Uavionix ECHO

It seems to me that if I went with the GTN650 I would be able to remove the
SL 40. What about the transponder.... will my gtx 327 work with the 650? And ADSB.... I'm assuming the ECHO will not work with the garmin stuff. So how do I get ADSB out? Will the 650 talk to my EFIS and will my autopilot still work or am I looking at changing that out too?

Your Echo is your ADS-B out source. I would install an Avidyne IFD440, Audio panel and keep the SL40 as the Com 2 radio. A GTN650 or IFD440 does not need to connect to the GTX327. I have both a GTN650 and IFD540 in my RV-10 if anyone would like to try both.

Rob Hickman
Advanced Flight Systems / Dynon Avionics
 
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Nice job Scott. This is exactly how I understand the rules, and the radar caveats there in.
s.
Legally no, but practically, yes.
The FAA says you must use an approved GPS if it?s your primary means of navigation, under IFR. To date, they have not approved a non-TSO?d gps for this (but never say never).
The practical part: Enroute, call ATC, and say, ?How about a radar vector on, like, 093, direct Salt Lake? (which is 500 nm away). 90% of the time they?ll say okay. They know you?ll be using some gps, but legally you?re on a radar vector.
 
I'm VFR rated only now as is my RV 7A. I've been thinking of upgrading the panel to IFR and working on my rating..... (I would be flying the "Gentlemens IFR only" someone referred to). It was suggested to me in the past to change out the SL 40 with an SL30 which would give me ILS capability but I've decided against that because the ILS's are apparently over time being phased out.

It gets confusing trying to hone in on what I would need! One post said to focus on the certified GPS source and work out from there. I see many references to the garmin 625 and 650. Since my aircraft is already built and flying, it seems the GTN 650 might be a better choice for me. I have some questions.

My current panel is equipped as follows:
EFIS & EMS Dynon D 100 and D120
Transponder Garmin GTX 327
Radio Garmin SL 40 (comm only)
Autopilot Dynon servos and control head
ADSB Uavionix ECHO

It seems to me that if I went with the GTN650 I would be able to remove the
SL 40. What about the transponder.... will my gtx 327 work with the 650? And ADSB.... I'm assuming the ECHO will not work with the garmin stuff. So how do I get ADSB out? Will the 650 talk to my EFIS and will my autopilot still work or am I looking at changing that out too?

I for one wouldnt get rid of the SL40. Its an excellent back up radio, and a stand alone at that. That said, neither all the ILSs nor the VORs are ever going away in our life time - not until another totally jam proof navigation system replaces them. All the handwringing about the GPS jamming exercises off FL ought to give you confidence in that. I would expect that county airport ILSs that never have any hope of hosting an airline might get wacked eventually, but IMHO no time soon. So an SL30 is really a good option if you want to spread out your money......and wait for 430Ws to come down in price.

As far as the 327 and the Echo - all garmin stuff works together, no issues there, and the Echo does as well - look at the wiring diagrams etal.
 
I for one wouldnt get rid of the SL40. Its an excellent back up radio, and a stand alone at that. That said, neither all the ILSs nor the VORs are ever going away in our life time - not until another totally jam proof navigation system replaces them. All the handwringing about the GPS jamming exercises off FL ought to give you confidence in that. I would expect that county airport ILSs that never have any hope of hosting an airline might get wacked eventually, but IMHO no time soon. So an SL30 is really a good option if you want to spread out your money......and wait for 430Ws to come down in price.

As far as the 327 and the Echo - all garmin stuff works together, no issues there, and the Echo does as well - look at the wiring diagrams etal.

While I agree with the ILS never going away, I believe the majority of VOR approaches will be gone in the near future and the remaining VORs will exist mostly as an enroute back up for GPS. In my area, the DPA VOR should be here for a good bit of time. However, almost two years ago, they dropped all of the VOR approaches at DPA, a large Class D airport in Chicago with a good amount of small jet traffic. This is a strong indication that no one is thinking that VOR approaches are any type of backup. Granted, this may not have happened if DPA didn't have an ILS. However, they really don't care about GPS back ups for anything other than commercial traffic and most airports that have any meaningfull level of commercial traffic have an ILS.

Larry
 
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Legally no, but practically, yes.
The FAA says you must use an approved GPS if it?s your primary means of navigation, under IFR. To date, they have not approved a non-TSO?d gps for this (but never say never).
The practical part: Enroute, call ATC, and say, ?How about a radar vector on, like, 093, direct Salt Lake? (which is 500 nm away). 90% of the time they?ll say okay. They know you?ll be using some gps, but legally you?re on a radar vector.

The IFR approved and primary NAV source, in this case, is VOR navigation for the enroute portion (and approach phase also in this example). Using a non-IFR approved source for direct to GPS navigation (handheld) is acceptable in a radar environment, provided you have an approved IFR enroute capable NAV source in the unlikely case that radar coverage is no longer available. When you get to your destination, or alternate, you must be able to conduct the approach with an approach approved NAV source - VOR/ILS in this example. I?ve actually been asked by ATC if I am capable of direct to navigation while on a VOR airways filed flight plan. When I replied, ?yes, with my handheld GPS? - they responded ?cleared direct?.... There is nothing wrong with this. Revert to VOR navigation if the radar goes down for some reason.
 
The IFR approved and primary NAV source, in this case, is VOR navigation for the enroute portion (and approach phase also in this example). Using a non-IFR approved source for direct to GPS navigation (handheld) is acceptable in a radar environment, provided you have an approved IFR enroute capable NAV source in the unlikely case that radar coverage is no longer available. When you get to your destination, or alternate, you must be able to conduct the approach with an approach approved NAV source - VOR/ILS in this example. I?ve actually been asked by ATC if I am capable of direct to navigation while on a VOR airways filed flight plan. When I replied, ?yes, with my handheld GPS? - they responded ?cleared direct?.... There is nothing wrong with this. Revert to VOR navigation if the radar goes down for some reason.

I guess I wasn't clear enough. Yes, this is the way it's being done, every day, by ATC. BUT, should the FAA come calling, and ask how you navigated under IFR from A to B, you should answer, "ATC radar vectors". IF you answered "with my handheld GPS", you can expect to get a nasty letter in the mail from them, proposing corrective actions. From the FAA's interpretation of the FARs, your handheld is for position awareness, not primary navigation.
 
IFR

I use Skyview and an SL30 with the Dynon/Trig transponder. The GPS 2020 approved GPS source and ADSB receiver all work well. I am legal, current and Instrument rated. What I am finding is that many approaches require DME. I see distance on my Skyview as provided by the approved GPS 2020. Also the SL30 has some DME descriptions I have not figured out. Do we expect more approaches will require DME as time goes on? Advice?
 
The SL30 can send frequency info to some remote DMEs, but it does not have its own DME.
Does your Skyview database know the actual dme location? E.g., here at LVK the DME associated with the ILS is located at the far end of the runway. The DME reads 1.0 at the runway threshold.
 
DME substitute

You need a GPS system that is an IFR Certified Navigator to be able to substitute GPS for DME for any approaches that require DME.

Andy
 
The SL30 can send frequency info to some remote DMEs, but it does not have its own DME.
Does your Skyview database know the actual dme location? E.g., here at LVK the DME associated with the ILS is located at the far end of the runway. The DME reads 1.0 at the runway threshold.

Not exactly.

Correct, the SL30 does not have its own DME sensor. But when connected to a remote one, the SL30 will display DME, Gnd speed to the station, and Time to the station.
 
You need a GPS system that is an IFR Certified Navigator to be able to substitute GPS for DME for any approaches that require DME.

Andy

Correct, and the Dynon is not an IFR certified navigator (yet).
 
Correct, and the Dynon is not an IFR certified navigator (yet).

Uhhh do you know something we don't? The experimental market is begging for a cheaper WAAS nav box, but that will be a really big hill for dynon to climb.

I worked for 10 years on a commercial FMS box. Its a massive undertaking.
 
Uhhh do you know something we don't? The experimental market is begging for a cheaper WAAS nav box, but that will be a really big hill for dynon to climb.

I worked for 10 years on a commercial FMS box. Its a massive undertaking.

No, unfortunately I don't know anything not public knowledge - but I remain hopeful. Dynon has pretty much every other instrument panel item in their suite already except the certified navigator - and with their current foray into the certified STC market, that stands out like a sore thumb and I'm extremely hopeful they would be (quietly) working on it.

Disclaimer - while I am a beta-tester for certain Dynon products, I truly have no knowledge of any efforts in this direction. If they are doing it, they are doing it quietly.
 
Or, we could lobby EAA, to lobby FAA, to revise the IFR GPS rules to align them with the ground based nav/approach rules: for experimentals, use would be performance based. If it's a WAAS navigator with current database, make it legal, just like non-TSO'd nav/ILS receivers are legal.

If nothing else, at least legalize the ADSB-certified GPS 'pucks' driving the same non-TSO EFISs that are already being used with certified navigators in our experimentals.
 
.......
The practical part: Enroute, call ATC, and say, ?How about a radar vector on, like, 093, direct Salt Lake? (which is 500 nm away). 90% of the time they?ll say okay. They know you?ll be using some gps, but legally you?re on a radar vector.

That's they way the airlines did it for decades between the first appearance of jets until GPS come of age especially between the Mississippi River and the west coast. ATC generally wanted at least one fix in each center's airspace.
 
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