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Anyone see the new issue of AOPA ?

Smilin' Jack

Well Known Member
Are RV7's going slower.
Gee 164kts full throttle and full mp at 6500 feet. That's only 188 mph. I thought RV's with IO 360's and constant speed props could do this at about 70% power. Not WOT.

I know some are faster or just rigged better... I pray I have a well rigged and clean aircraft
Smilin' Jack
 
RV7

I read that article. I don't have an RV7, but I do have an RV8 with an IO360 with a constant speed Hartzell and I can get 175 knots anytime. The RV7 in the article looked very well built though. I was curious about the reported speed too.
 
Even with a 180hp Parallel Valve, the RV-7/A should do 208 - 210mph top speed and 198 - 200mph at 75% cruise.
 
RV-7 versus Mustang II

I have confirmed both the RV pilot (Dave Hirschman) and the RV owner (Bill Cloughley, who is wearing a VAF hat in the AOPA video) are members of these forums, so maybe one of them will comment on this thread.

After reading the article, I note the following summary written by Dave Hirschman:


"Top speed is the simplest and most talked-about measure of aircraft performance—and the least important.
Who among us flies at full throttle, with the prop at max rpm, the mixture full rich, at low altitude, except during takeoff and initial climb? Unless you’re racing at Reno, your typical flight profile probably involves a climb, a reduction in prop/engine rpm, and leaning the mixture. When you do those things, the Mustang II’s speed advantage over the RV–7 becomes a rounding error.

Far more meaningful are the criteria that comprise what Vans Aircraft Founder Dick VanGrunsven calls “total performance.” Those considerations include short-field performance, aerobatic capability, ground handling, control harmony, comfort, visibility, and fuel efficiency. Some of these qualities are hard to quantify, but they add up to versatility, and that’s where the RV series shines. No other general aviation aircraft—Experimental or FAA-certified—can match RVs across the full performance spectrum.

And while we’re talking about intangibles, here’s the biggest: The RV community of builders and pilots is an actual community. Nearly 8,000 RVs have been built and flown around the world, and the people who own, build, and fly them are among the most knowledgeable, skillful, friendly, cooperative, and active people in aviation. They happily share information and provide mutual support. They also do more actual flying (as opposed to hangar flying, coffee drinking, or doughnut eating) than any other aviation group I know.

For all these reasons, the RV–7 is the superior airplane in this contest."



Secondly, while Ian Twombley makes a point about the price of the Mustang II being about half that of the RV-7 on the used market (I haven't confirmed that), looking at it from the seller's viewpoint, isn't that a good reason to be proud of building something that returns a lot of value for the time, money and effort put into it? Also, Mr. Twombley incorrectly writes that the Mustang II is available from a kit, after the video shows his interview with the M-II builder discussing the higher cost of scratch building the M-II.

My personal story is one of 3 or 4 Mustang II builders at Sun'n Fun twenty years ago telling me that I had to be able to weld and read drawings to build a Mustang II. "This ain't no kit. This is a plane built from engineering drawings!" I didn't tell them about my two mechanical engineering degrees, as I walked away from their two Mustang II's toward about 30 RV's that were parked a few yards away. ;)

As for the speed discrepancy, Van has a reputation for being honest to a fault as to performance figures of his designs.

I do like the fact that the AOPA video ends with some degree of civility with compliments being swapped between the two sides.

I thought it was a nice piece of aviation journalism and an example of future articles with the ten-minute video linked at the end of the article.

P.S. For Dave...Here's a suggestion for a future article. Take Ian Twombley to a typical workshop of an RV builder and then take him to a workshop for a typical scratch builder. It was obvious in the video that he has no interest in building an airplane. This is a little surprising to me as I am aware of his family's rich heritage in aviation. Take him at different stages of construction and let him see the difference between a kit built airplane and a scratch built one. The kit built airplane doesn't even have to be an RV. I think it would be an interesting and educational exercise. I noted that the Mustang II builder "hemmed and hawed" when asked about how much it cost him to build his M-II. At least he was honest when he said he was sure the total cost was more than the total cost of the RV, and that was after Ian compared the two "kit" prices, saying the M-II was $2000 cheaper ($18K vs. $20K).
 
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The RV community of builders and pilots is an actual community. Nearly 8,000 RVs have been built and flown around the world, and the people who own, build, and fly them are among the most knowledgeable, skillful, friendly, cooperative, and active people in aviation. They happily share information and provide mutual support. They also do more actual flying (as opposed to hangar flying, coffee drinking, or doughnut eating) than any other aviation group I know.

Can't say it much better than that. Here's a toast to US:D
 
See my thread from a week or two ago. My 7 is exactly the same... (i.e. 164 kts TAS) I would argue just as well built and rigged as well.
 
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Claw (Bill Cloughley) and Pablo (Dave Hirschman) may not tell us but this Mustang II is highly modified while Claw's RV7 which although being extremely well built has no performance mods. In my opinion after talking to Carlo the Mustang builder/pilot and seeing his plane, it is an exceptional bird and probably the best built Mustang II in existence with quite a few customized performance mods, there was no doubt it would be the fastest in all out speed. Keep in mind that Vans numbers are MPH-TAS not MPH-IAS. Claw's RV7 won 3 out of the 5 categories that were not a draw.
 
The Mustang II in the article is a beauty, but I would have assumed it was faster. There's a MII at 08A which will run right at 200 knots. He can formation cruise with me at 180+ and did so most of the way to OSH last summer.
 
The whole issue was a wing tip to wing tip race... So I have flown in a couple RV and they appeared a little faster great article though
Smilin Jack
 
RV vs. Mustang speed

The CAFE foundation reported that the Mustang has a wing area of 97.1 ft2 and Vso of 65 mph, vs. 110 ft2 and 52 mph for the RV-6A. From this you'd expect the Mustang to be a bit faster, if everything else is equal. You'd also expect it to use more runway.

In the real world attention to construction details may be the deciding factor. There have been a few Mustangs participating in the SARL races over the years, and based on the spreadsheet compiled by Bob Axsom their average speed was essentially identical to the average for 160 hp RV-6s. The 180 RV-6/7s averaged about 10 mph faster (many of these times where those of Bob Axsom who has put lots of work into making his plane faster).

On the other hand Larry Kinder brought his beautiful 180 hp Mustang II to the Northwoods race last fall and cleaned everyone's clock, including Damon Ring with his very fast 220+ hp RV-8. I looked at Larry's plane afterward and it showed an almost obsessive level of attention to detail (I believe he won Grand Champion at Oshkosh around 1980).
 
AOPA Fly-Off

According to various on-line records, this Mustang II has a Continental IO-360 engine. Most of these are rated at 210hp! Does anyone know exactly what engine was in this bird? I know that Bill's RV-7 has a 180hp Lycoming.

Mugsy
 
How about that stall?

The stall is what bothered me. And from what I have heard this is typical in the Mustang II.

Mustang II; ?Finally, at about 68 KIAS, the Mustang?s tapered wing stalls and the airplane rolls about 30 degrees to the left before recovering.?

RV-7; ?The RV-7-with its lighter wing loading and rectangular, Hershey-bar wing shape- is still solid and stable about eight knots above its stall speed. (And the RV-7 stall, when it does come, breaks crisply and straight ahead.)?

I am not a high time pilot, therefore the wing dropping bothers me. Maybe it is just me. Stability is just one of the things I like about Van?s products.

Thank you Van.
 
It doesn't seem like that long ago that this article was written, but I guess it has been. And since that time, no MustangII drivers or builders have graced this thread. Seems odd, but I suppose noone wants to enter the lions den.

But I will. Carlo is one of my tech building resources - a great guy and has a very well executed plans built plane. Its got a 180hp lyc - one that he got from Wentworth with 7or 800 hrs on it. Its not anything cosmic. I've flown in it, and if you can handle stalls in your average 172 or P28, M2 stalls are no different. Any stall will get your attention if you're not on the ball.

As for Bill's plane, I've not seen it in person as of yet, but he just went round the country with it and its clearly a solid ship. I know him as he's pres of the EAA chapter that I'm part of and that I go to for building help.

All in all, I think this RV vs M2 stuff is bunk. They are as close to the same ship as cousins are in a family. Its a chevy vs ford vs mopar muscle car debate. We're more alike than different. For sure, its not a prop vs jet type debate as some might think it.

Hands down though what the RVs have in-spades is the community you guys have built. Its for sure the envy of the aviation HB world. The M2 builders/fliers world is very small, and the active online folks I'll guess is probably less than 20. Maybe less than 5. Eh, c'est la vie.

Still, as I bang away on my M2 kit, I'm happy you guys are here, to talk big picture stuff with - engines, seats, avionics, paint, places to go etc - and celebrate the nuances that make us enjoyably "ramp-different".
I hope you're not annoyed that I (and others less obvious around here) want to share and enjoy the kit-built world with you.
 
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Maniago, I think that RVers on this board almost universally welcome other aircraft owners and builders. The more, the merrier. :)

I have a buddy building a Glasair III. I love the plane, but I hear a lot of envious comments from him about how wonderfully documented the Vans kits are.

I'm glad you're here to add your perspectives!
 
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