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A How To Guide for Wrecking Your Nose Wheel

Flying Canuck

Well Known Member
Patron
As mentioned in my recent AOG thread (I'm all fixed up now thanks to VAF), I destroyed my nose wheel tire, tube and fairing on a hard landing a couple of days ago. Now that I've stopped shaking, ran through the experience in my head too many times, talked it through a few times and analyzed my data logs, I thought I'd recount what happened and what I found out. I apologize in advance, this is going to be a long post.

A little background, I'm a mid life crisis pilot and builder. Got my PPL 3 years ago, managed to build about 240 hours total time. Finished my RV-9A last summer and have 70 hours and 100 landings on it. The incident trip was a 3 day leg stretch to the Denver area, my first trip into the US and first multi day trip. The incident flight was from Billings, MT to Lethbridge, AB to clear customs. 2 hour trip, coming after my 2 hour initial leg out of Rapid City. This was my first flight into Lethbridge and it was the 5th unfamiliar airport of the trip.

My initial approach was to runway 23, 200' wide (first time for me) and I had a shifty quartering tailwind. In looking at the logs later, winds went from 126 at 7 at 500 AGL to 59 at 5 on the ground. On top of this I was fast, 87kt over the numbers. This was already a recipe for trouble. The approach ended in a well executed bounce to go around, no second hit and quick reaction to add in full power.

My second approach was to the same runway, a little better speed (78) but still too fast. This one bounced as well and I had go around power in within 2 seconds. FSS gave me runway 12 for my next pass, winds were a little better for it. This is 150' wide so the sight picture needs an adjustment.

My third approach was decent, still a little fast and ended with hard contact on the mains. I read that as a bounce and immediately put in the power. The incredulity of my situation was hitting hard and the nagging voice in my head started shouting that I'd forgotten how to land. FSS was treating me like an emergency now (so I found out later when I paid them a visit).

My fourth approach was the one that wrecked things. This is the "how to". One decision. I hit hard on the mains again and decided to override everything I knew and pushed the nose down to try and save it. The logs showed that I hit the mains with 1.5 g at a pitch of +1.3 and in 3/4 of a second hit the nose wheel at 2.4 g at a pitch of -5.4. I think I anticipated the bounce and had already pushed forward before the initial hit. This bucking landing hit happened again a couple of seconds later with 2.6 g on the nose and a 13 degree pitch change. If the first one didn't smash things, this one surely did. I finally decided to do what I should have done, pushed in the power and got out of there.

On that fourth climbout, FSS asked me if I would like to fly away for the airport for a few minutes to collect myself. It was just what I needed to hear and I did that, all the while talking through the landing process out loud. After about 6 minutes I requested a long final for 12, thinking that a long stable approach would give me the best outcome. Finally, 30 minutes after my first approach I managed to get the landing I so desperately needed. It wasn't pretty, still hard and I had a couple of nose oscillations after the mains stuck. I taxied in and declared my day done (we had planned the 1 hour flight home after clearing customs) before finding the damage that formally ended my day. In the end, the tube was punctured, the inside sides of the tire were delaminated, the axle bolt was slightly bent, the wheel pant had 3 large chunks blown out and the leg fairing was cracked with a couple of popped rivets. They closed the runway behind me as soon as I found the hole in the pant and they found the pieces.

I still need to wrap my head around my landings, my landing back home yesterday wasn't very good either. I am sure of a few things. Firstly, my wheel pants went on recently, I only had 3 landings on them before starting on this trip. The pants bought me 12 knots at cruise and the speed management is a whole new beast that I need to get a handle on before any further flight. Secondly, my hard hits/bounces are coming from failing to counteract/avoid sudden sink over the runway. Lastly, no matter how frustrated, angry, scared, tired, confused, anxious I get, NEVER try to save a bounce by pushing the nose forward.

If you made it this far, thanks for reading. This post is mostly for my own benefit as I work through this, but since I'm not the first or the last to experience this, I thought it was worth sharing and discussing. I'm going to take a short break from flying so I don't have recent memory haunting my decision making. Then I'm going up and spending a good hour entering and exiting slow flight at a safe altitude before getting some circuits in and relearning my landings and reclaiming my confidence.
 
I?m glad you are safe. Sounds like quite a scary experience.

Great thought about taking a break and regrouping. A few hours transition training or with a VERY experienced RV tri gear pilot would be priceless. By the forces you described , you got off lucky without more damage. These are great airplanes, but they demand respect.
 
Sight Picture

Thanks for sharing this. You are smart to do so. Your comment about sight picture needing adjustment makes me wonder, exactly where were your eyes focused when these landings were going bad? People tend to focus on the runway directly ahead of the nose when stressed. One needs to look well down the runway and allow their peripheral vision to assist in estimating height and sink rate when landing. You seem to be aware landing in a tailwind is of concern due to higher ground speed at touchdown and control difficulty. Don?t let air traffic controllers force you to a runway not compatible with the winds in your little RV.

Go get some dual instruction. Be safe.
 
We all have bad days

Glad you worked through it. Many of us land these airplanes too fast. Maybe practice some short field techniques. One thing you can always do is a slow approach with power on to control your sink. This will help keep your nose higher and give you more time to manage the flare.

-Andy
 
Go get some dual instruction. Be safe.

This is the very best advice you will get.

It is good for all of us to occasional get the perspective of someone else regarding our techniques. When something specific pops up is a very good time to do so.

The # 1 primary detail to successful landings is proper airspeed control.

The first part of that is knowing the proper airspeed that should be used.

After that, having/developing the skills to be on that airspeed when entering the round out/flair for landing.
If that speed has not been achieved and stabilized during the approach, there is very little point (or very high risk) in continuing the landing approach into the round out / flair.
Sure, there might be 10,000 feet of runway available, but as you discovered, changing things up from what you have used as normal operating procedure, by flying the length of a runway to dissipate extra airspeed that should not have been there, is a recipe for disaster for someone with well under 100 hrs total time in there RV.

As you have learned first hand (and with minimal consequence fortunately), every bell, whistle, alarm, etc., that anyone can imagine, should hopefully be going off inside their subconscious if they even think about moving the stick forward to complete the landing in a tricycle gear airplane.
 
Help

Really agree finding an experience rv flyer out your way and get 10 hours of help. Rv9a is the easiest plane i have ever landed, not being a smart ***...its really as easy as it gets. Get it down and you can drop that thing in any runway, short, soft, narrow etc pretty easily. Maybe you just need some help so you can relax and let it settle on. Being that wound up/stressed makes me think there is something else? Did you have an accident, got a lot of other stuff stressing you? When was the last time an instructor or high time pilot sat beside you in flight and kept an eye on technique/skills?

You can land cessnas etc ok? If someone who has landed one hundreds of times sat beside you, would that maybe let you relax and feel it, settle it on, not fight it on. Need you to enjoy it more and be relaxed about it. Rv nose wheels arent very good and slamming onto runways. :-(

Good luck, keep her safe.
 
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My opinion only. Best thing you can do is go flying as a passenger with a friend. Let yourself just enjoy being in the plane. Do this immediately. You want to also stop ruminating on your incident. When you think airplane you want to think positive.

So... A pilot with 300 hours, especially most of that 300 hours flying in the same sort of way, can feel like John Wayne in their region of familiarity. Now, throw in a long cross country with cruise flight at altitude, dehydration, stress, fatigue, customs, pressure to land at a particular airport, ideas of dynamic situation awareness and assertiveness (Pilot to ATC interfaces when tailwind landings are offered)... you start to enter the types of environments that demand more of a diverse, professional seasoning.

On the subject of flight physiology - I would not be surprised if your situation was brought on by the sorts of things that are discussed in the ?IMSAFE? model. Maybe you were dealing with a little hypoxia, fatigue, stress, dehydration... you may have done things, if on video, you would say, ?I did that?? If you watched it today. Hey it?s possible and has happened many times.

After you go fly as a passenger really try to find an RV transition instructor. Thus will be for your confidence more than anything and as a safeguard for your enjoyment and safety. You want to keep the experience predictable, safe and positive to get you back on the horse ASAP.
 
The # 1 primary detail to successful landings is proper airspeed control.

The first part of that is knowing the proper airspeed that should be used.

After that, having/developing the skills to be on that airspeed when entering the round out/flair for landing.
If that speed has not been achieved and stabilized during the approach, there is very little point (or very high risk) in continuing the landing approach into the round out / flair.
Sure, there might be 10,000 feet of runway available, but as you discovered, changing things up from what you have used as normal operating procedure, by flying the length of a runway to dissipate extra airspeed that should not have been there, is a recipe for disaster for someone with well under 100 hrs total time in there RV.

I think this is exactly it. I think what was going through my mind was I was fast, I knew I was and I had to lose that airspeed that I brought in over the numbers. That led to early and extra back pressure which triggered the sink that brought me down. Thanks for spelling it out like that, that makes the whole thing make sense. New checklist item, if I'm coming in over the numbers much over 70, go around before the bounce. Get out and get the airspeed right next time around.
 
Being that wound up/stressed makes me think there is something else? Did you have an accident, got a lot of other stuff stressing you? When was the last time an instructor or high time pilot sat beside you in flight and kept an eye on technique/skills?

The stress level is not normal for me, it really built up during this incident. My head space was pretty good going in, but after the second attempt it eroded quickly. Never to the point of a panic, but never before had I lived the "better to be on the ground wishing your were flying than in the air wishing you weren't" adage.

The first 8 flights, 8 hours and 33 landings were with a very high time pilot but he wasn't an instructor. I had another experienced pilot right seat a couple of weeks ago, my second to last landing before this trip. Best landing of my life. No idea how that happened.

You can land cessnas etc ok?

Haven't gone back to the Cessna since my first flight in the 9. It took me a long time to get comfortable landing, did about 400 landings in a 172. Funny thing is that I took to the 9A landings quickly and many times commented on how easy it is to land.
 
I think this is exactly it. I think what was going through my mind was I was fast, I knew I was and I had to lose that airspeed that I brought in over the numbers. That led to early and extra back pressure which triggered the sink that brought me down. Thanks for spelling it out like that, that makes the whole thing make sense. New checklist item, if I'm coming in over the numbers much over 70, go around before the bounce. Get out and get the airspeed right next time around.

Second this. I did some research on nosewheel wheelbarrowing type landing accidents and incidents and major factor in most all is airspeed being to high and otherwise not well controlled.
Need to know the proper approach speed and stay with it.

Glad no one was hurt and damage was minor.
 
Howdy Claude,

I've got about 800hrs in a 6A and only one landing in a 9A, but they can't be all that different. The best thing that I ever learned about landing the 6A was to get the speed right and round out right above the runway and then fly it there until the mains settle on. The idea is to have pretty much zero rate of descent. The focus needs to be on keeping the nosewheel off as long as possible.

Doing it airliner style with a x degree glideslope right to the point of touchdown means that you'll bang the nosewheel on right after the mains touch. Leveling off too high does the same thing because you drop the last couple of feet and then bang the nosewheel on. The solution for the high level off is to lower the nose just a little and then flare a bit when you are right down at the runway or to add just a little power and descend slowly to just above the runway. If you are having trouble with the sight picture and are at a long runway just carry enough power to descend slowly and fly it down to the ground while looking at the other end of the runway. Speed control is critical. Carrying a little power is much better than carrying extra airspeed.

Don't be embarrassed to talk to yourself while you are doing it. Running through it verbally helps to focus the mind on what you are supposed to be doing. Tell yourself what your speed should be at various points in the pattern, particularly on final. Call out your checklist; airspeed, fuel pump, gear down and welded, flaps, airspeed, down to the runway, round out, etc. It might feel a bit silly at first and it does help.

Ed Holyoke
 
Recommended practice for everyone.

Many people land these airplanes with way too much airspeed. Stall speed of RV-9/A with flaps is somewhere around 45 kts. The old standard for approach is 1.3 X stall. This comes out to be around 60 kts. over the fence.

My recommendation for RV, or any other airplane for that matter, pilots is to go out, put in some flap and slow fly the airplane. Do this not for just a few minutes, but for at least 30 minutes or until you become comfortable. Make some turns, not just straight & level. Once you are comfortable flying the plane at MCAS, everything else becomes a piece of cake.
 
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My worst landings and how I practice

You didn?t say how much cross-country experience you have. I find that my worst landings always come after a long cross-country flight. I am at my most tired. I am accustomed to the feel of high fast flight, so low slow has an exaggerated feel to it. I counter that feel by flying on the numbers. When I can, I like to get to pattern altitude and speed early enough to require the sight and feel of the pattern before final.
For practice, when I do pattern work, I mix the circuits up with something different every time. Flaps, ? flaps, no flaps, circle to touchdown, power off, power on, too much speed, short field etc. Often at my home field I get requests to keep the speed up for following jet traffic so I practice fast approaches to determine when I need to pull power to slow down, slips on short final etc.
One exercise my instructor likes to have me do is add just enough power just before touch down then keep it in the air, on center and straight the length of the runway, then go around. Great practice for getting the sight picture, feeling the plane out in ground effect and learning to counter cross winds.

Glad you only had minor damage. Get a CFI or someone with experience you trust in the right seat and go play.
 
Great input here.

I just had a look at what I was doing for the "best landing of my life" that I mentioned. I touched down at 60 but was still doing 69 at 50' AGL. I might not have been able to improve on that landing, but I'm sure I could have made that more likely if I was established at 65 or lower after turning final. What I'm seeing now is that I really need to go and get comfortable holding 60-65 in a descent as well as level flight. I'm pretty good with getting down to 90, just need to make sure I plan my descents early enough that I can be below 90 and at circuit (pattern) altitude well before getting to the airport. I love the speed, but it's a handful. I also will admit that I don't like thinking about how fast these planes are and then admitting that they land as slow or slower than the C172s. The notes I took from the transition training back in April have me at 85 on downwind, 75 on base and 65 on final. I've got detailed power settings with that. Time to get back to what I was taught.

My local airport is packed with training C172s and it's difficult mixing with them. The FSS gives me special treatment that probably doesn't help, yesterday I called in saying I was going to do a normal midfield circuit entry, they come back and say that since I'm so fast I can just do a 5 mile straight in final. Those are much harder than going through the circuit where I know the way down. I can do the straight in, but I need to make sure I'm down to circuit altitude and 90 kts before that 5 mile mark. Better yet, turn down the special treatment.

To the cross country question, I'm at about 55 hours, 25 in the RV. I agree that landings after a cross country are a different beast. Flipping the switch from a 165kt descent to land 100 kts slower when coupled with everything else that goes into a cross country is not something that just happens, it needs to be intentional. My flight on Wednesday added a complication that I had no alternates because of customs. If I'd had the choice, I would have just gone home after the second approach - I had plenty of fuel and it was only an hour.

As I'm sure you all can see, I'm an analyst, it's what I do for a living. Love the number crunching. I'm overindulging a little on this occasion, but today I'm able to look at Wednesday's events with a great deal of clarity so I'll finish getting that right in my head and then put it behind me and move on to doing the practical things correctly.

Thanks for this discussion, it's helping me tremendously.
 
I think two very good suggestions are to fly slower, and then to hold it off the runway until it stops flying. I generally fly final at 58-62 KIAS depending on loading. I actually just fly based on my AOA, but those are the numbers it works out to. Once I'm just above the runway I just keep increasing back pressure until the plane lands itself right about at a stall. This is where the speed is so important. Too fast and when you try to flare you will end up over-controlling and climbing. At 58ish knots (in my plane) there is still speed left to arrest a little extra sink if needed, and not float forever. The only time I increase these numbers is in a big crosswind or very gusty conditions, and even then I don't add more than 5 knots at the most.

These are certainly just my humble observations after about 300 hours of RV9A time - I am by no means an expert. But I do find that if I deviate from the technique, my landings get worse.

Chris
 
I would consider adopting the airline mentality for landings. My airline as a example requires that below 500 ft the aircraft be -5 to plus 10 knots of the calculated approach speed or a go around is required. This is of course on aircraft with 140 knot approach speeds and far greater mass. For your RV9 I would check your airspeed at 100 feet and if your not plus or minus 5 knots of airspeed and correcting go around. I would make that a checkpoint on every landing.
G
 
Ditto to what everyone else has said above, but I would only add that approaches exceeding 1.3-1.4 stall speed in the landing configuration, in the 9/9A, are going to make your landings more challenging than they need to be. Get some transition instruction to explore slower approach speeds and I think you’ll gain a great deal of confidence.

Kudos to you for acknowledging your limits, even if a bit belatedly. Good luck.
 
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It's a lesson and you got off easily. I forced the nose down on a Cessna many years ago and also got off easily. It was a lesson learned. Get back up there with an instructor. You will be fine.
 
practice...

I was taught to treat every take-off and landing like a soft field in these little airplanes. It has worked well for me. Anytime I fly any new airplane, I like to go up and get some forgiveness altitude. I get intimate with the bottom of the flight envelope by stalling it and gaining confidence with the speed at which it falls out of the sky. Be ready to use your feet if it breaks one way or the other.
In the transition training I took in a 7a, the instructor had me hold the stick full aft and keep it straight with my feet. Just porpoising down a few thousand feet. Very helpful. Hold the nose wheel just above the runway at all moments possible. Practice...
 
Howdy Claude,

I've got about 800hrs in a 6A and only one landing in a 9A, but they can't be all that different. The best thing that I ever learned about landing the 6A was to get the speed right and round out right above the runway and then fly it there until the mains settle on. The idea is to have pretty much zero rate of descent. The focus needs to be on keeping the nosewheel off as long as possible.

Doing it airliner style with a x degree glideslope right to the point of touchdown means that you'll bang the nosewheel on right after the mains touch. Leveling off too high does the same thing because you drop the last couple of feet and then bang the nosewheel on. The solution for the high level off is to lower the nose just a little and then flare a bit when you are right down at the runway or to add just a little power and descend slowly to just above the runway. If you are having trouble with the sight picture and are at a long runway just carry enough power to descend slowly and fly it down to the ground while looking at the other end of the runway. Speed control is critical. Carrying a little power is much better than carrying extra airspeed.

Don't be embarrassed to talk to yourself while you are doing it. Running through it verbally helps to focus the mind on what you are supposed to be doing. Tell yourself what your speed should be at various points in the pattern, particularly on final. Call out your checklist; airspeed, fuel pump, gear down and welded, flaps, airspeed, down to the runway, round out, etc. It might feel a bit silly at first and it does help.

Ed Holyoke
Agreed. I, too, think it helps to add a little power before touching down which lifts the nose. After settling on the mains the small amount of power can be reduced and the stick pulled back to keep the nose up without worrying about a bounce or porpoising.
 
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As a CFI who frequently checks out low time pilots in nose gear airplanes: There is a range of acceptable nose-up angles on landing, but 90% of these pilots are at the very edge of barely high enough. My most frequently used vocabulary is "nose up, nose up, nose up,.... too late". There seems to be a mind set to get the wheels to touch, when the mindset really should be to hold the wheels off as long as possible.
 
Many people land these airplanes with way too much airspeed. Stall speed of RV-9/A with flaps is somewhere around 45 kts. The old standard for approach is 1.3 X stall. This comes out to be around 60 kts. over the fence.

This is spot on.

I did my training with Alex in his -10, and it took me about 12 circuits to feel like I wasn't risking life and limb each time, and that was with a competent voice in the right seat. After about 20 hours in my own airplane I got to the point that I didn't feel like every landing was "an event". After about a hundred hours I got to the point where I didn't mind a landing anywhere with a passenger, even an unfamiliar airport. After 300 hours the landing is simply the last part of the flight and almost anything is comfortable or I change something until it is.

There is no substitute for experience doing it. 17 patterns in the same airport under the same conditions don't count, unless it's heavy gusting crosswinds and you're doing it for that purpose. Change airports. Change runways. Land crosswind and downwind, with a low level at first and increasing. Do it until you smile once and then expand your limits. Do all this solo so you don't have to worry about what people think. You'll be amazed at how it comes along.

I've got a constant speed prop and it helps greatly to slow down - I tend to make things work out to put me at an altitude of about 2 feet, with full flaps and power off as I cross the threshold, with about 10 knots more airspeed than I need to stay there, and then do my absolute best to stay there until it simply won't anymore. That nearly guarantees a good landing.

In any case - I've replaced my nose wheel fairing once too - get back on the horse and go do it again. You're not the only one that's done it.
 
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ideas

You say there are too many 172s at your airport. Just an idea but with a good right seater safety pilot, maybe flying with a bunch of slow 172 slowing down the pattern would be a great thing. Whats the hurry? Rv 9a can rock with the fast boys or doddle with the 172's Learn the plane and get comfortable, slower flight is good to learn. Some slow motion circuits and then if controlled get a right hand circuit and do some faster ones between 172s and then slow it down with some 172s behind and infront and go back and forth. a 9a is happy anywhere in that pattern, you will be too when you get a good feel for it. Then when feeling really comfortable at diff speeds, get to some unfamiliar airports and figure out how to adjust in, then move to some busy airports and figure out how to adjust in. Enjoy the learning and get super comfortable. Its a great plane that will treat you well, just have to learn how she dances.
 
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The problem is less about there being 172s here, it?s that there are quite a few times where there are so many that they restrict the circuit traffic. There are 2 other airports I can use within a 10 minute radius. I have no excuses. I am willing to try and play nice with the 172s, it does come with challenges that would only help me improve my speed control. I will have a tough time climbing at Cessna speeds though, if I match the 70 knots they use I?ll be way inside their circuits when I have turn crosswind before the end of the runway. Most of the student do big circuits so maybe I just do 2 for each of their 1, kidding of course.
 
The problem is less about there being 172s here, it?s that there are quite a few times where there are so many that they restrict the circuit traffic. There are 2 other airports I can use within a 10 minute radius. I have no excuses. I am willing to try and play nice with the 172s, it does come with challenges that would only help me improve my speed control. I will have a tough time climbing at Cessna speeds though, if I match the 70 knots they use I?ll be way inside their circuits when I have turn crosswind before the end of the runway. Most of the student do big circuits so maybe I just do 2 for each of their 1, kidding of course.

There are no rules that say you have to climb at full throttle.
An RV-9A will fly (and climb) just fine on much less power (Remember that it was designed to be able to use a 110 HP engine).
You could easily fly the entire pattern at the same ROC and air speeds as Cessna's in the pattern.
 
There are no rules that say you have to climb at full throttle.
An RV-9A will fly (and climb) just fine on much less power (Remember that it was designed to be able to use a 110 HP engine).
You could easily fly the entire pattern at the same ROC and air speeds as Cessna's in the pattern.

Yeah I'm sure that's true. Just seems so wrong! I know I can easily do an enroute climb without adding power beyond the 55% that I was cruising at, makes sense that I could hold back on take off. Probably a better option than coming out at pattern altitude doing 110 and having to slow it down right away. I'm certain that I wouldn't have had nearly as much trouble managing my speed on Thursday if I had pulled my power back more on go around after getting the climbout established.
 
This is a problem...

The problem is less about there being 172s here, it’s that there are quite a few times where there are so many that they restrict the circuit traffic. There are 2 other airports I can use within a 10 minute radius. I have no excuses. I am willing to try and play nice with the 172s, it does come with challenges that would only help me improve my speed control. I will have a tough time climbing at Cessna speeds though, if I match the 70 knots they use I’ll be way inside their circuits when I have turn crosswind before the end of the runway. Most of the student do big circuits so maybe I just do 2 for each of their 1, kidding of course.

I have noticed this a lot. Students being taught to fly big wide airliner patterns. I don't quite understand. If they loose power, they will not make the runway. Last year, a man at a local airport was coming back to his home airport from a cross country. He had a young employee with him, giving him his first small plane ride. He neglected to get fuel at the last stop because it was cheaper where he was going. He made it to back to the home airport, crossed mid-field, flew a wide, low pattern. Engine quite running, a few hundred feet before the threshold, stalled, crashed, 2 dead men. So sad. He had made it to the airport, then got too far away from the airport. I try to keep this in mind and fly tighter patterns when I can. In some situations it is necessary to fly a lower approach with a little power on but if possible to doing it with no power is good practice.
 
Why?

"...Just seems so wrong!..."

Why? They have just as much right to the airport as you...and making your airplane do what you want it to is good practice for you.

As an instructor, I see it time and again. People learn "their pattern" and practice it all the time, exactly the same way...and when they need to extend or modify it, they are immediately out of their comfort zone. At a great number of airports, it is really not practical to fly a tight, close pattern; get used to it.

The most important thing is to fly the airplane. You need to make it do what you want. If that means flying behind a 172 that is doing 80 downwind, 70 base, and 60 on final, so be it. Fly the airplane...
 
"...Just seems so wrong!..."

Why? They have just as much right to the airport as you...and making your airplane do what you want it to is good practice for you.

That wasn't what I thought was wrong. The 172s outnumber me, I don't for a second suggest I have more rights to the airport. The part that seems wrong is dialing back performance on something that is so much fun on a full throttle takeoff. I mean there's no way you can say a 70 KT, 500 fpm climbout is as fun as 105 KT, 1500 fpm. I fully understand the necessity as well as the value of holding something back and playing nice. I also know that I can't do 110 KT in the circuit and expect to have good/safe landings as I demonstrated this week. The "feels wrong" part is the same as having a 200mph sports car and not being able to take it over 75, or using your super car as your daily in-city commuter.

My local airport doesn't feature much normal when it comes to the pattern, every pilot does them differently and there is plenty of extending or keeping it tight involved. I agree that you need to be able to adapt to the airport and the traffic. I have a preferred circuit of course, but it's by no means the only way and it only works half the time. The rest of the time I adapt. The challenge this week was extending that adapting to unfamiliar airports.

This thread has given me a massive amount of things that I can and will work on to get my confidence back and - more importantly - make me a better, safer pilot. Today I'm itching to get out there and get to work. Considering that 3 days ago I briefly contemplated whether I even wanted to keep flying, that's a good outcome from this discussion.
 
Howdy Claude,

I've got about 800hrs in a 6A and only one landing in a 9A, but they can't be all that different. The best thing that I ever learned about landing the 6A was to get the speed right and round out right above the runway and then fly it there until the mains settle on. The idea is to have pretty much zero rate of descent. The focus needs to be on keeping the nosewheel off as long as possible.

Ed Holyoke

Lot of good advice here, especially some T & G's with an instructor. I also have a 6 and not a 9, but the variable sink rate of these planes needs to be learned. I imagine the 9 is a bit different, but I see VERY different sink rates at different speeds on final approach. If you come in too fast, you will need to modulated the elevator at a continually changing rate to deal with the increasing sink rate, as you slow down.

I would work with the instructor on finding the right speeds for your landing and then practice these a bit to develop your SOP speeds. Once you have the ability to come over the numbers at the same speed every time, you will develop comfort in what is necessary to manage the flare at that speed.

Good luck and stick with it. You will get it in fairly short order and as you gain experience, will get better at dealing with situations when you are off speed. It's just muscle memory, but it takes "at bats" to develop it.

Larry
 
You didn’t say how much cross-country experience you have. I find that my worst landings always come after a long cross-country flight. I am at my most tired. I am accustomed to the feel of high fast flight, so low slow has an exaggerated feel to it..

+1

I found the exact same thing and attribute a lot of it to the autopilot. One thing that I now do religiously is to hand fly AT LEAST 10 minutes before landing.

Larry
 
Yes...

"...Today I'm itching to get out there and get to work..."

That is a good thing! Realize that with the speed of a RV, you also have access to more airports than the 172s would care to go.

The most important thing to realize is that the aircraft is a tool; make that tool do what you want it to do. Also realize that a stable approach will give you the best chance at a good landing (doesn't guarantee one, though ;^}). As has been stated many times here, airspeed control is really important. Keep practicing, and have fun! Remember, it is a perishable skill set...
 
+1

I found the exact same thing and attribute a lot of it to the autopilot. One thing that I now do religiously is to hand fly AT LEAST 10 minutes before landing.

Larry

This is something that has come up in the side conversations that I've had in the PMs. My non-pilot son who was with me on the incident flight brought this up on our drive home that evening. I LOVE my autopilot. I also use it too much. While I never use it anywhere near landing, I have used it to get into downwind. The one skill that this has allowed me to skip developing (to my detriment) is trimming. The a/p has auto trim, which is wonderful but has made it so I can get away with (somewhat) never touching my trim. This is on my list of must fix items. I'm also going to start turning off my autopilot sooner and spend some good practice time without it. Need to get to the point where I'm not the second best pilot in the plane.
 
Claude-- It took guts to report this crappy landing to the whole world. That just shows you're serious about improving your landing technique and I commend you. You did the right thing by adding power after a bounce. As others have said, your airspeed is critical for a good landing, and the proper speed varies with your weight. But even if you have everything nailed, a gust of wind can come along and mess you up. Hey, it flying was easy, everyone would be doing it! After 305 hours in my Lancair, I'm still learning how to land the darn thing!
 
Aircraft Weight

This is something that has come up in the side conversations that I've had in the PMs. My non-pilot son who was with me on the incident flight brought this up on our drive home that evening. I LOVE my autopilot. I also use it too much. While I never use it anywhere near landing, I have used it to get into downwind. The one skill that this has allowed me to skip developing (to my detriment) is trimming. The a/p has auto trim, which is wonderful but has made it so I can get away with (somewhat) never touching my trim. This is on my list of must fix items. I'm also going to start turning off my autopilot sooner and spend some good practice time without it. Need to get to the point where I'm not the second best pilot in the plane.

One item that I haven't seen discussed here is aircraft weight and CG. Since this was a cross country trip with a passenger and presumably luggage, were you flying and landing the plane at a higher weight than you have most frequently flown your plane? People often miss the fact that aircraft handle differently at different weights and CG, particularly during landing. If this was the case, you may consider honing your low speed and landing skills with extra weight in the plane.

Skylor
 
This is a really good point. My RV6 was a very different aircraft with two adults and baggage behind the seats.
 
One item that I haven't seen discussed here is aircraft weight and CG. Since this was a cross country trip with a passenger and presumably luggage, were you flying and landing the plane at a higher weight than you have most frequently flown your plane? People often miss the fact that aircraft handle differently at different weights and CG, particularly during landing. If this was the case, you may consider honing your low speed and landing skills with extra weight in the plane.

Skylor

That is a good question. My son is a lightweight and we were 16 gal lighter than a full tank. Probably around 1650 at the high end, so a little below gross. CG doesn't move much in a normal load, I don't have any conceivable configuration that is under gross that is outside of the CG range. So it probably didn't affect this incident, but I do accept the fact that weight does add a variable.
 
Claude-- It took guts to report this crappy landing to the whole world. That just shows you're serious about improving your landing technique and I commend you. You did the right thing by adding power after a bounce. As others have said, your airspeed is critical for a good landing, and the proper speed varies with your weight. But even if you have everything nailed, a gust of wind can come along and mess you up. Hey, it flying was easy, everyone would be doing it! After 305 hours in my Lancair, I'm still learning how to land the darn thing!

Well I didn't open this thread thinking it would win me a pilot of the year nomination. I put it on the Safety board and laid myself bare because it is a serious thing. My incident had a relatively low cost to it, but I know it could have been much, much worse. No sense in trying to hide my shortcomings here, I need to improve my skills and it would be the height of foolishness to not use this as the massive learning opportunity that it is.

This thread has turned out better than I'd even hoped. Nobody pulled their punches and the discussion has been pretty close to a consensus. So much great feedback here from an awful lot of experience. It's helped me tremendously and I hope it serves as helpful to the other low time pilots learning to handle these marvelous machines.

Of course, 5 or 10 years from now I might wish this wasn't on the Internet for eternity.
 
Claude
I haven?t seen anyone else mention this but you might want to examine what your landing cg was. Often when we go cross country we?re tempted to carry a little too much weight in the cargo area and/or not truly look at our landing cg. If you?re landing after a rather long flight your fuel condition is sometimes a little low with the resultant condition of moving your cg farther aft than what you?ve normally experienced.

An aft cg condition will significantly increase pitch sensitivity - especially as your slowing down in the landing flair. I experienced this myself last summer coming home from AirVenture and for the first time in almost 40 years (3800+ hours with almost 200 in the RV) had to abort four landing attempts due to porpoising of my landings. Adding full forward nose down trim helped reduce my unrecognized over control and allowed me to safely land.

RVs are great little airplanes and often very forgiving of hand fisted flying but even they can say, ?you?re not paying attention to me.? Fly safe.

Go fly with an instructor and get your confidence back.
 
I didn?t weigh my baggage but I?d estimate the cg at the time of landing to be in limits but 75% aft. Fuel burn has this progressing farther aft. This is definitely farther aft than I would be used to. I?ll have to look at my trim settings in the logs. As I mentioned above, the trim is managed by the auto pilot and would probably have been aft at the time. That seems to setup the scenario you pose here. Something to consider. Add that to some nervous back pressure and that?s three forces promoting sink. Looks like a viable contributing factor.
 
Great post, Claude.

Two things that really helped my landings:
- during my primary training in a 172, my instructor took the throttle in the landing flare and as I flew the length of the runway had me do everything to keep it from landing, as he gave it just enough throttle to keep me in the air. That gave me the perspective of flying the plane a few inches above the runway and preventing it from landing until it won?t fly anymore, and settles onto the runway with minimal energy and no tendency to bounce
- learning to fly tail wheel. Preventing and recovering from bounces is a core skill of tail wheel flying, and I found it greatly improved my landings on nose wheel planes as well. I learned on a Citabria 7ECA with no flaps, so to dissipate extra energy you aggressively slip. I got very comfortable slipping hard, right into the flare if I came in with too much energy. My RV-7a doesn?t have as much drag in the slip as a Citabria, but slipping is another great tool to have if you need to get rid of a few knots, and mastery of that skill could be a life saver in a forced landing if you are a bit hot and high coming in to a small landing site. The Calgary Flying Club at Springbank offers tail wheel instruction in a Citabria. You can get aerobatics instruction too. :D

Scott
 
Hi Claude
If you want, I could come up & ride with you & figure out what?s happening with your landings. We could explore varying CG configurations if you want, & get you comfortable landing the beast. I am on my way back from California currently (motorhome, land barge) & could zip up there mid/late next week for a few hours. 403-614-6142. Cheers Ralph
 
This is something that has come up in the side conversations that I've had in the PMs. My non-pilot son who was with me on the incident flight brought this up on our drive home that evening. I LOVE my autopilot. I also use it too much. While I never use it anywhere near landing, I have used it to get into downwind. The one skill that this has allowed me to skip developing (to my detriment) is trimming. The a/p has auto trim, which is wonderful but has made it so I can get away with (somewhat) never touching my trim. This is on my list of must fix items. I'm also going to start turning off my autopilot sooner and spend some good practice time without it. Need to get to the point where I'm not the second best pilot in the plane.

I think it's more than that. I find after running on AP in cruise for two hours that when I first grab the stick, I can sense the disconnection with the plane. couple minutes later, I am well connected again. I would not want to be shaking that rust off on final. I also do a lot of local one hour flights and never engage the AP. First, it is fun, but second, it helps to develop a better sub-concious connection with the plane.

Larry
 
Hi Claude
If you want, I could come up & ride with you & figure out what?s happening with your landings. We could explore varying CG configurations if you want, & get you comfortable landing the beast. I am on my way back from California currently (motorhome, land barge) & could zip up there mid/late next week for a few hours. 403-614-6142. Cheers Ralph

Ralph, that is an amazing offer that I can't and won't refuse. Enjoy your trip home and text me when you know the day that works best. 403-396-7550.

In the meantime, I am going to find a break in the weather and go out and work on some slow flight, recheck my stall speed with my fairings and leave my auto pilot turned off.
 
Ralph, that is an amazing offer that I can't and won't refuse. Enjoy your trip home and text me when you know the day that works best. 403-396-7550.

In the meantime, I am going to find a break in the weather and go out and work on some slow flight, recheck my stall speed with my fairings and leave my auto pilot turned off.

I offer as well although I won’t be in red deer anytime soon. I’m military flight instructor and have done transition training for many RV guys.

I usually find the main issues are:
- over controlling the RV in the flare or after a bounce. The airplane and wing is a lot more responsive than previous experience
- fly too fast
- chopping the throttle too early and having high decent rate before bounce
- confidence
- lack of upper air work
 
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That wasn't what I thought was wrong. The 172s outnumber me, I don't for a second suggest I have more rights to the airport. The part that seems wrong is dialing back performance on something that is so much fun on a full throttle takeoff. I mean there's no way you can say a 70 KT, 500 fpm climbout is as fun as 105 KT, 1500 fpm. I fully understand the necessity as well as the value of holding something back and playing nice. I also know that I can't do 110 KT in the circuit and expect to have good/safe landings as I demonstrated this week. The "feels wrong" part is the same as having a 200mph sports car and not being able to take it over 75, or using your super car as your daily in-city commuter.

I think you are just starting to realize some of the issues you need to master with your RV. I have a RV-10 that is based at an airport that has a fairly high student pilot population. RVs are slippery and getting them to slow down quickly takes practice.

If I get a 172 student flying B-52 sized patterns, I have the speed and skill set that I could easily turn inside them, land, and get off the runway before they are even close to landing. But I don't make that decision because it will most likely rattle that student with no way of predicting the consequences.

I've found that if I slow down to pattern speeds before entering downwind is usually the best practice. Sometimes it means that I'm lowering flaps earlier than I would normally put them down. Yes, it does feel like I could walk faster around the pattern after cruise speeds on a cross country. But the goal is to blend in with the other aircraft in the pattern as best that you can.

While I would recommend honing your basic flying skills first before purchasing some technology, I've found an AOA indicator to be a wonderful tool in a crowded pattern with slow aircraft. It's saved me multiple times in a heavy pattern with slower aircraft. My best landing are when the AOA tells me to "Push" i.e. (stick forward) just as my mains touch down.
 
One other thing that might be a factor. You mentioned that the aircraft was trimmed by the autopilot. In the pattern with changes in airspeed you should be manually trimming almost constantly. If you did not trim the aircraft from autopilot disconnect to touchdown I would try and force yourself to trim more often.
 
My initial approach was to runway 23, 200' wide (first time for me) and I had a shifty quartering tailwind. In looking at the logs later, winds went from 126 at 7 at 500 AGL to 59 at 5 on the ground. On top of this I was fast, 87kt over the numbers. This was already a recipe for trouble.

Not sure if its already been mentioned, but wide runways create a visual illusion of being lower than you actually are (described here for example: http://www.flytime.ca/runway-illusions). This can lead to flaring too soon and dropping in hard.
 
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