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GTN 650 Main Software Update ? ?

704CH

Well Known Member
Hi All, I saw a thread outlining that Garmin has a software upgrade for the GTN 650 that covered on warranty through end of 2013. The problem is, only dealers can install this upgraded software which really erks me off..

That aside, I talked with my local dealer who will do it under warranty, but they mentioned the newest version of software isn't under warranty, only a interim version.. What ? ?

Can someone come back with 1) The most current software versions for the 650 and 2) The most current "warranted" versions of the 650, and what is the difference?

For the below:

- GTN Main Software
- COM Software
- NAV Software
- GPS/WAAS Software
 
I concur.........

I had to pay to have software loaded to mine earlier in the year by a local dealer. He eventually decided it was in his best interest not to charge me if he wanted future business.

All he had to do was copy the files to the sd card. Garmin does request that they test the unit in the aircraft, but in my case, I am prohibited from flying into both airports that have local Garmin dealers. So the dealer had nothing to test, other than the upgrade was loaded to the GTN650 that I hand carried into their office.

It's really a shame, because many of the local homebuilders have significantly more experience with the hardware than the local techs.

Wouldn't it be nice if Garmin would allow firms like SteinAir or Aerotronics just to ship us the upgrades on a sd card?

bob
 
Bob, it irks me too, but I bet it has something to do with the certification issue. There's probably a strict control protocol to follow. Just a guess.

Chad, my software version is 4.10 and I installed the 650 about a month ago. I don't see any further breakdown into sub-categories, just the one version.
 
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Bob, it irks me too, but I bet it has something to do with the certification issue. There's probably a strict control protocol to follow.

There was a long thread on this a while ago, and yes, that is exactly what Garmin said. Others expressed their opinions that it need not be so, citing the fact that we may do database updates.
 
I sent my 650 to Garmin to incorporate Mod 2, warranted, but maybe of no use to you if you don't have a second comm, and at the same time v4.x was loaded, no charge. But shipping cost is steep. v3 is warranted until year's end and solves significant issues with connectivity. There's always going to be another upgrade; you going to chase every one? Get v3 for free and call it good.

John Siebold
 
I guess my issue is, why do I not get the most current version just because I bought the unit a year ago? I don't understand why people buying it now get a (supposedly) improved software inside their system?

Also, why one person on this string indicated that Garmin upgraded him to 4.x for free, but yet others indicate you can't get upgraded unless you pay for it?

Just seems that there is a lack of knowledge (or difference in knowledge) about how this works at the avionics shops that I have talked too and Garmin doesn't help making it any clearer.

Thx
 
This is my understanding of how Garmin works with the certified gear:

Software only updates are handled by Garmin authorized dealers, installers and repair stations. Garmin does not charge a dime for these updates. What the dealer, installer or repair station charges you is between you and them. Some will do it for free, some won't. Some will do it for free because you spend money with them or will in the future, others won't...it varies. New products like the GTN series can be updated with the SD card slot. Older products require special software and a computer connected to the firmware update interface.

Garmin does charge for non-warranty hardware repairs and modifications.

In almost all cases, you are responsible for any shipping cost and downtime associated with updates and repairs. That includes "declared value fees" and insurance.
 
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I guess my issue is, why do I not get the most current version just because I bought the unit a year ago? I don't understand why people buying it now get a (supposedly) improved software inside their system?

Just seems that there is a lack of knowledge (or difference in knowledge) about how this works at the avionics shops that I have talked too and Garmin doesn't help making it any clearer.

Unfortunately, that is the structure Garmin lives in for the certified world. Garmin has a list of which upgrades are covered under warranty and which aren't. Most certified shops are looking to collect service revenue either from a warranty claim to Garmin or as a service ticket to you. I don't believe that Garmin collects any fees for any of the upgrades. It's just service fees from the local shop.

My experience is that many of the shops that cater to the experimental world, will gladly install the updates for free if you are in their shop. I'm too far away from SteinAir or Aerotronics to take advantage of their generosity.

I'll add that I and I suspect most of us have no problem paying for value added services. But sticking a SD card in and watching it boot, isn't one of them.

What we really need is for Garmin to understand that the experimental market is different and they need to address our needs. Allow their dealers to determine who can install the updates. I'm pretty sure that Stein, Jed, Paul, Jason, Gary, et al have a pretty good idea of who is capable and who isn't when it comes to installing the upgrades.

If I can build the plane, design and wire the panel, I think I can handle installing the upgrading and performing required validation testing.
 
Most of us have expressed our thoughts about this subject to Team X. I know I have! Unfortunately it appears that they don't have much influence over on the certified side of the business as it relates to allowing end customer firmware upgrades.

It is a sensitive topic within Garmin and it is going to take another major paradigm shift to get em to change their policy on this...

I know that I cannot afford to pull my unit, box it up, and ship it to Stein every time they come out with a new rev. My panel is less than a year old and already I am at least 1 rev behind possibly 2 on the GTN650. The risk, cost and downtime associated with the shipping and updating can be significant. Mine had to be updated once before I ever flew with it.

I don't like it, but there is not much one can do about it other than tell them we don't like it. It is the price we must pay to play in the certified world....
 
I'm guessing that if you DID find the right ear to talk with in the certified Garmin world, they would say that their hands are tied on this due to FAA regulations. Let's blame the guv'mint - we can all agree on that! ;)
 
Dynon updates our fully certified Transponder, in the field, in your plane as part of a normal SkyView update. As far as we have experienced, it's not a requirement by the FAA that software in a certified device only be updated by a dealer or mechanic, so let's not be too hard on the FAA, OK? ;)

--Ian Jordan
Dynon Avionics
 
Dynon updates our fully certified Transponder, in the field, in your plane as part of a normal SkyView update. As far as we have experienced, it's not a requirement by the FAA that software in a certified device only be updated by a dealer or mechanic, so let's not be too hard on the FAA, OK? ;)

--Ian Jordan
Dynon Avionics

Understand Ian - but a lot depends on which FSDO or MIDO the company works with regularly as to what got written into the certification paperwork. The FAA doesn't apply their rules universally across the country - much is left to the local office's interpretation. I know of a case where an STC was issued by one FSDO and rejected by another - and people who had approved, signed 337's (certified world) in the first FSDO's area were written grounding notices by the other. So it depends who wrote the certification paper.
 
Dynon updates our fully certified Transponder, in the field, in your plane as part of a normal SkyView update. As far as we have experienced, it's not a requirement by the FAA that software in a certified device only be updated by a dealer or mechanic, so let's not be too hard on the FAA, OK? ;)

--Ian Jordan
Dynon Avionics

Ahhh, but there is the difference - the 'Dynon' (actually manufactured and certified by Trig in a completely different facility in a completely different country to a completely different TSO/ETSO than a GTN) transponder coupled with the Dynon Skyview has a clearly defined and repeatable process (at least in the FAA's eyes) and is not part of an FAA approved manufacturing spec for an entire installed configuration (Skyview or AFS and that Txpdr)...and has been that way from day one of said configuration.

Also at this time the aforementioned combination can't currently be installed into a certified airplane like the 145/146 boxes discussed in this thread....(of which may or may not find themselves installed into anything from an RV-12 to a Citation jet). The aforementioned boxes also carry a full AML/STC with a clearly defined/approved ICA, of which I'm not aware the Dynon Transponder has been approved with. Dynon is also not the mfgr of that unit in the eyes of the FAA (and as far as I know not a manufacturer a certified 145/146 box), so the processes approved for mfgr of these boxes can and are different across various manufacturers and their certifications. As Paul mentioned the rules/regs are quite a bit more complicated than some may think and as he mentioned are rarely if ever universal (especially betwixt different PMA's, TSO's, products, etc..). If you want a bunch of boring reading, read all of 14CFR21 (and 23).

My point is comparing a product made by someone else to a different (and almost infinitely simpler) TSO, in a different certified facility with a different set of limitations and approved processes is not an accurate comparison. The manufacturing approvals along with continued airworthiness approvals (ICA's) are entirely different across different manufacturers for various specific devices. Each manufacturer has their own set of defined and ultimately approved processes (whether it be PS Engineering, Rockwell, Honeywell, Lycoming, Hartzell, etc..) which they have approved their specific box too, and they never (or very rarely) are identical between companies.

In this case it's likely not entirely either Garmin or the FAA's fault at an individual level, but rather the processes that were setup and certified for that particular box, facility, continued airworthiness, etc... Not unlike most other manufacturers of certified products. In a previous life this is what I did for a living, and I can tell you it's a lot more complicated than simply changing some internal policy - despite the general assumption to the contrary.

Just my 2 cents as usual!

Cheers,
Stein

PS, even if I'm a bit rusty on my 21/23 stuff (like I said, I USED to do that for a living), I do know Paul is fairly up to date on it...he also used to deal with a set of regulations that make these FAA reg's look like child's play! :) but, in the end Ian is partially right, it's not entirely the FAA....I'm saying it's just not entirely Garmin (or any of the other mfgr's with their own certified processes) either.
 
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This has always bothered me about some of the gear I chose to put in my panel. I've always wondered if Garmin could simply sell a GTN651, call it an experimental box, shipped with different software and let the experimental world do what we do. It's an experimental box in an experimental aircraft...let us have access. Isn't that pretty much what happened with the Adahars and magnetometer in the G3X prior to this new generation?

Now, with that said....I have full access to my aera 510 and while updating it last week, managed to turn it into a brick....the night before a Denver to Nashville round trip in a 182. Some seriously outstanding customer service was employed by Garmin and a replacement will show up tomorrow. If you read some of the old threads in here you'll see I really HATE being told I can't have access to my $10k box in my experimental airplane....but having dealt with Garmin and Stein's customer service....it's really not that big of a deal. One screw pulls the box, pack and ship takes about fifteen minutes and yes shipping costs money....but in airplane dollars it isn't much. Yes, I certainly want a GTNExperimental that isn't hampered by all of this nonsense....but I don't regret my GTN650 at all....and I'm sure some FAA silliness forbids my solution anyway. I wanted the capability that the Garmin offers and knew it would add a level of....complexity.
 
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This has always bothered me about some of the gear I chose to put in my panel. I've always wondered if Garmin could simply sell a GTN651, call it an experimental box, shipped with different software and let the experimental world do what we do. It's an experimental box in an experimental aircraft...let us have access. Isn't that pretty much what happened with the Adahars and magnetometer in the G3X prior to this new generation?

They could most likely do this but then we would not be legal to use the GTN for its intended primary purpose (All the fancy IFR stuff). There are much less expensive alternatives for experimental VFR only solutions already available..


snip...If you read some of the old threads in here you'll see I really HATE being told I can't have access to my $10k box in my experimental airplane....but having dealt with Garmin and Stein's customer service....it's really not that big of a deal. One screw pulls the box, pack and ship takes about fifteen minutes and yes shipping costs money....but in airplane dollars it isn't much. Yes, I certainly want a GTNExperimental that isn't hampered by all of this nonsense....but I don't regret my GTN650 at all....and I'm sure some FAA silliness forbids my solution anyway. I wanted the capability that the Garmin offers and knew it would add a level of....complexity.

Same here...
 
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I've had my GTN-650 for about a year and half. I haven't done any of their updates yet. Everytime I get an email announcing an update (so far...) I just go "meh" and blow it off. I haven't seen anything yet that looks serious enough to justify sending in for an update.

I could be missing something though...
 
Direct feedback from Garmin

I got the below today from Garmin support. They do warrant the upgrade to most current version. Can't believe Crown aviation at Paine field is so unaware. Can't wait to tell them they are going to upgrade me to most current version.. :)

----------------------

Most recent description of the problem:
Sorry for the delay in replying, I was out on vacation.

If the dealer will look at service bulletin 1236 that covers the upgrade from 2.00 to 3.00 software version under warranty. Our policy is that we want you to have the most current software version and since the 3.00 SW is covered until the end of the year then we will pay for his 1 hr labor per unit to install the 4.10 software version in your unit if it still has the 2.00 SW version. If you have the 3.00 SW then all upgrades from that SW is not covered.

If they have any questions concerning this they are able to call us and we will be able to assist them with the information.

So if you do have 2.00 still going to the most current 4.10 will be covered.

Pete
 
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