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Door Seals: Traditional or Aftermarket?

RudiGreyling

Well Known Member
Gents, from another post moved here to discuss it separate:

Yes, just like a car. You trim the gutter a little shorter and in someplaces you'll need to make it a little more thicker. I sent more details in a direct email. Here's the part that Geoff used from McMaster Carr:

11
1120A411
50 Ft.
Edge-grip Rubber Seal, Bulb Opposite Grabber, 1/4" Edge, 3/8" Bulb Width

I am looking for opinions of people that have sealed their doors. There is the tradition Vans Method in Green, with the rubber on actual door. Then there are people that have sealed in RED on the door frame. Some people cut like RED and just fit rectangluar automotive foam instead See PINK.

I have just cut my cabin top and it looks like RED is the easy way to go, cuase you just cut the gutter flange straight and don't have to worry about the curve back and getting it exact.

For those that have gone before me, please tell me your thoughts...RED + PINK looks easier, but wat is the catch?
seal.jpg


EDITED: UPDATE WITH PINK FOAM DIAGRAM
 
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Rudi,

I was digging through Ivan Kristensen's photo site this morning and discovered a couple gems of information.

In his library showing the cabin door construction is a video that details the various dimensions that he cut the door frame, as well as several photos showing the seal in various states of application.

bob
 
I followed the plans for the door seals but I couldn't shut the door with Van's door seal. I called Van's about it but all they had to say was that it worked for them. I took those seals off and stuck on some temporary seals from Lowe's. I bought some of the seals from McMaster Carr, like you show in red. I plan to put those on soon - I like the way they look.

Kevin Belue
RV-6A
RV-10
 
I decided to use the red method and the McMaster Carr part. I like the result though I'm not finished or flying.

I originally was going to go with the Van's seal (and the Van's method of fitting the door edges). It quickly became apparent that 1) the Van's seal required that the canopy edge under go a good bit of shaping in order for the door to close, and 2) the Vans method of fitting/trimming the edges is far from optimal.

I then cut the edge down as in the red method and fitted some rectangular cross section foam seals - the same material used on my Maule doors. the material is easily compressed and tends to hold it's compressed shape so it fits quite well with the somewhat irregular canopy edge. The seal's adhesive side was placed on the door and that was the problem. I intended to install Flightline's interior including headliner and vinyl for the door. While the foam adhered nicely to the unfinished fiberglass and would clearly do the same on a painted door, I couldn't see how it would work with a covered door surface. Otherwise the foam is cheap and easy and could be the best way to go with a painted finish door.

I then went with the McMaster seals (3/8" edge thickness) which seems to this builder to be the preferred way to go. Very nice finish for the edges, tolerant of edge inconsistency, good fit. So I'm "finished" with the door seals.

My only regret was spending so much time trying to follow Van's door edge trimming procedure. I ended up doing what a few others have documented on their sites... Just trim the door down slightly undersideand put a nice edge on it, put a couple layers of packing tape on the edge. Sand and roughen the canopy edge. At this point, the door is suspended between the hinges and the locking pin. The bottom edge is touching and remains fitted per the Vans method. Then you just build the canopy edge up with a flox mix and you get an even gap along the top, fore and aft edges. You get a pretty goodresult in one application of flox with minimal additional sanding and filling required.

Bill Watson
 
Rudi,

I was digging through Ivan Kristensen's photo site this morning and discovered a couple gems of information.

In his library showing the cabin door construction is a video that details the various dimensions that he cut the door frame, as well as several photos showing the seal in various states of application.

bob

Thanks, BOB! Pitty the movie ended premature just before he went completely around the door
 
I followed the plans for the door seals but I couldn't shut the door with Van's door seal. I called Van's about it but all they had to say was that it worked for them. I took those seals off and stuck on some temporary seals from Lowe's. I bought some of the seals from McMaster Carr, like you show in red. I plan to put those on soon - I like the way they look.

Kevin Belue
RV-6A
RV-10

Thanks Kevin...where did you run into trouble with the standard Vans rubbers? Did you cut your rain gutter away in the end?
 
I decided to use the red method and the McMaster Carr part. I like the result though I'm not finished or flying.

I originally was going to go with the Van's seal (and the Van's method of fitting the door edges). It quickly became apparent that 1) the Van's seal required that the canopy edge under go a good bit of shaping in order for the door to close, and 2) the Vans method of fitting/trimming the edges is far from optimal.

I then cut the edge down as in the red method and fitted some rectangular cross section foam seals - the same material used on my Maule doors. the material is easily compressed and tends to hold it's compressed shape so it fits quite well with the somewhat irregular canopy edge. The seal's adhesive side was placed on the door and that was the problem. I intended to install Flightline's interior including headliner and vinyl for the door. While the foam adhered nicely to the unfinished fiberglass and would clearly do the same on a painted door, I couldn't see how it would work with a covered door surface. Otherwise the foam is cheap and easy and could be the best way to go with a painted finish door.

I then went with the McMaster seals (3/8" edge thickness) which seems to this builder to be the preferred way to go. Very nice finish for the edges, tolerant of edge inconsistency, good fit. So I'm "finished" with the door seals.

My only regret was spending so much time trying to follow Van's door edge trimming procedure. I ended up doing what a few others have documented on their sites... Just trim the door down slightly undersideand put a nice edge on it, put a couple layers of packing tape on the edge. Sand and roughen the canopy edge. At this point, the door is suspended between the hinges and the locking pin. The bottom edge is touching and remains fitted per the Vans method. Then you just build the canopy edge up with a flox mix and you get an even gap along the top, fore and aft edges. You get a pretty goodresult in one application of flox with minimal additional sanding and filling required.

Bill Watson

Thanks Bill, very informative!

I still like to know any Cons...except price..of going RED.

Regards
Rudi
 
I still like to know any Cons...except price..of going RED.

The only con that I'm aware of, and it's not really a con, is that the thickness of the cabin cover isn't consistant. You have to build the thickness back up so that the seal will have a snug fit.

The only one that I heard when folks started using this method for the seals was the fear that the seal may be more easily damaged by people dragging their feet across the seal when getting in and out. I'm not aware of anyone that this has become a reality.

bob
 
The only con that I'm aware of, and it's not really a con, is that the thickness of the cabin cover isn't consistant. You have to build the thickness back up so that the seal will have a snug fit.

The only one that I heard when folks started using this method for the seals was the fear that the seal may be more easily damaged by people dragging their feet across the seal when getting in and out. I'm not aware of anyone that this has become a reality.

bob

Thanks Bob, let me understand it correctly, you are referring to the cabin top door frame lip the RED seal needs to fit over is not consistent 1/4" thick all the way around and needs to be build up in some places. Rudi
 
Originally Posted by kbelue
I followed the plans for the door seals but I couldn't shut the door with Van's door seal. I called Van's about it but all they had to say was that it worked for them. I took those seals off and stuck on some temporary seals from Lowe's. I bought some of the seals from McMaster Carr, like you show in red. I plan to put those on soon - I like the way they look.

Kevin Belue
RV-6A
RV-10
Thanks Kevin...where did you run into trouble with the standard Vans rubbers? Did you cut your rain gutter away in the end?

Rudi,

I installed Van's seal on the door and it went on ok, but when I tried to shut the door I had to push real hard from the outside. There's no way I could shut it from the inside- I'd pull the handle off the door. Before I installed the seal, I could shut the door easily.

I haven't installed the new seal (red in your diagram) yet, but I will have to cut the gutter back.

Kevin
 
Guys,
I'm still working on my wings but I'm always trying to keep abreast of the issues. In this case just for my edification, I'm trying to visualize what you all are saying with regard to using Van's standard seals. Is the trimming issue with the area I've highlighted in the red box? (great visual BTW Rudi)

seal.jpg.w300h206.jpg
 
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Todd,

There's the trimming of the exterior perimeter of the fiberglass to fit the metal lower cabin. No secrets there, just trim/fit/trim/fit...

The part that you highlight represents teh interior perimeter of the door frame. That (IMHO) is best left for when you start to work the doors. That way you can assemble the doors - with them in hand the amount and locations to trim will make much more sense regardless of the type of door seal you use.

Bob
RV-10 N442PM
 
Thanks Bob. Yeah having the parts on hand would definently make this easier--especially for me as I'm a visual learner and text descriptions are hard for me to grasp sometimes.

The top to fuse interface I get. It is the door and seal interface to the top that I'm still having trouble with. Rudi's graphic went almost all the way to solving the mystery for me. The final piece of the puzzle is making sure I understand the issue with the fit of the doors using the standard setup seal and trim procedure. You kind of answered it, but I still don't have a warm fuzzy that the area I indicated is the problem (although I believe it is).

As an aside, for those who opted to stay with Van's set-up, did any one use these seals?

http://www.shop.aviationtechproducts.com/product.sc?productId=31&categoryId=4
 
Thanks Bob, let me understand it correctly, you are referring to the cabin top door frame lip the RED seal needs to fit over is not consistent 1/4" thick all the way around and needs to be build up in some places. Rudi


Rudi,

Your assumption is correct.

bob
 
Guys,
I'm still working on my wings but I'm always trying to keep abreast of the issues. In this case just for my edification, I'm trying to visualize what you all are saying with regard to using Van's standard seals. Is the trimming issue with the area I've highlighted in the red box? (great visual BTW Rudi)

seal.jpg.w300h206.jpg

Another thing to consider when making a modification (isn't that always the case with experimental category aircraft).

A portion of the door frame is structural in the context of rollover protection (the area fwd and aft of the door window). When you cut away all of the flange highlighted above, think of it as cutting away a stiffening flange and a percentage of the cross section area of your roll bar. What effect does it have? No one knows...it was never tested that way.

Just something to consider.
 
Thanks Bob, let me understand it correctly, you are referring to the cabin top door frame lip the RED seal needs to fit over is not consistent 1/4" thick all the way around and needs to be build up in some places. Rudi

I'm guessing that there is a difference in fit and finish between the old green tops and the new pink tops. I haven't seen a pink top in person but I have pink doors (and cowling) with a green top. Some of the observations here may be specific to top type.
 
I too am debating what to do about the door seals. Thankfully, it's not required for airworthiness, so i may go sans seals initially.

One issue with that McMastercarr seal is that the part that goes over the door edge is a hard solid plastic that must be bought in the correct width to fit tightly over the edge. However, my door edge varies from like 1/8" to maybe 1/4" (thickest parts are in the top forward and top rear corners of the door frame. Most everyone seems to be trimming the door frame edge to consistent thickness.

However, i was looking at a 2003 BMW door and noticed they use a bulb seal on a velvet type flexible material that is glued to the metal frame. Since it's flexible material, it might conform to the irregular door frame. I have not stumbled on this kind of bulb seal, yet, though. Just a thought in case anyone sees or comes across this kind of seal, i might be interested.
 
I have been watching this thread and after using the Mcmaster Carr seals I would do it again. The big thing everyone should realize is that you do cut away some fiberglass on the door frames of the cabin top which is taking away strenght as Scott said. When I did my doors I did build my door frames up to 1/4' or a little more all the way around the doors. I feel this did add much more strenght back into the frame. Leaving it at 3/16" is not sufficent in my opinion. It is much more work than the stock seals but I feel is far superior seal if done correctly and built up square to 1/4" or a little more.
I added in some places 6-7 layers of 9-10 oz cloth. My seals do fit very good and the doors seal off great. The seals are very easy to replace
if needed. So far getting in and out of the airplane does not seam to effect or even get near the seals .
Just my 2 cents worth

Geoff
 
Rudi - I have just installed the Mcmaster Carr seals and as far as I am concerned they are far superior to the Vans stock seals. You are welcome to come and look!!

Andy Lawrence
RV 10 South Africa
 
Rudi - I have just installed the Mcmaster Carr seals and as far as I am concerned they are far superior to the Vans stock seals. You are welcome to come and look!!

Andy Lawrence
RV 10 South Africa

Fantastic, I want too come have a look!
 
has anyone used inflatable seals? they are common in the Lancair planes.

I had inflatable seals on a Baron, and the McMaster Carr seals, properly installed,are every bit as tight as the pneumatic seals without the cost/maintenance.
I was reluctant to go with these, but having done it. w/ 120 hrs I wouldn't even consider doing anything else.
 
Pink and Green

We're going for a combination of Pink and Green diagrams. Namely, not trimming the door frame edge (like Green), but using a one piece modern foam seal (like Pink). Ours will be attached to the door itself.

Aircraftdoorseals.com sold us their standard door seal and after we requested it, some additional material that is a little thinner, for tighter spots.

We'll let you know how it goes when we fly in June . . .

Tim D-T
40025
 
Just about finished , (final time , that feels good) with our doors. They are painted inside and out, the McMaster carr seals are on but not glued. We have Sean's third latch installed (less split pin) in the pilot's door . We still have the plastic catch to mount on the co-pilot's door-sil but it is also mounted for the final time also. The doors are still stiff to close, but make a very tight seal ( at least for now). We are really pleased with the outcome of our door install. The gap all around is fairly uniform, the door is flush with the cabin. They were a lot of work but should be worth it.
Thanks to those that pointed out and providing the part # for the door seal, and to Sean for what looks to be a perfict solution for closing the doors and keeping them closed.
Speaking of keeping the doors closed, how would one escape from an inverted RV-10 (on the ground obviously)? Would you expect to be able to kick out (weld-on and a very thin layer of glass holding them in) the windows?
Ron
 
McMaster-Carr seals

I ordered the McMaster Carr seal that has a clip and a side mounted rubber tube, as recommended by others in the forum. I cut it all to size and pushed it on all around the door on the cabin top lip, but in the case of both doors, it seems to push the doors almost 1/4" above the pin latch positions, so that the doors will not close.

Any suggestions based on similar experiences?

Doug.
 
Door Seal

Last weekend I glued on the vans door seals. Sunday night I took them back off and ordered the MC seal. The vans seal was not good. The MC seals showed up and I have installed them. Fantastic fit and finish, I also really like how the pinch welt closes out the cabin edge. This should be the seal vans uses.

My new problem: Vans seal would not allow my doors to even come close to closing. The MC seals are very close but I am still about 1/8" from closing the doors. I spent a lot of time getting my doors fit and finish perfect. Looks like I will be doing that again. Anyone else have this problem.

Pat
 
All of the sizes will change

when you get your project to your Florida location. The aluminum, the fiberglass and the tires will absorb our wonderful humidity and grow about 10%!

Ron
 
Pretty hot and humid here in lower Alabama (LA) as well. These doors have turned out to be the most difiicult part of the project.

Pat
 
All of the RV-10 doors that I have seen installed sit high and out after installing the seal. It doesn't matter which seal you use, especially if the seal is squeezed really tight. This is why Vans has angled tips on the door pushrods. The positive effect on these pins enable 7/16 of pull - down and in on the cabin vs. 7/32 of pull with a bullet type pin. My experience with door pins have all shown that the angle is far superior to the bullet type pin. If you look at at other RV-10's that have the bullet type pins (including the ones I sell) you will most likely see where the builder has ground down the edge of the receptacle to get the bullet close enough to catch the ramp and slide into the 7/16 hole. The negative effect of Vans pushrod ends is the end is hollow allowing the end to dig or cut into the Delin receptacle.

Some of you probably think I am writing this to sell my angled pins, honestly I just want to shed some light on the subject after reading a lot of these threads. I have helped other builders install door pins and latches and have seen the common problems associated. The builder could easily use the original Vans pushrod ends and fill the end up over the magnet then sand the angle flush so it won't catch the receptacle.

The builder needs to trade off how tight they want their seal vs. ease of closing the door. If the McMaster seal is used I would suggest no less than 1/4 inch of reveal between the door skin and the cabin. This allows a tight seal and doesn't warp the door so much that you can't close it.

If you install the PlaneAround latch, it WILL pull the middle of the door in as far as you want it to. If your seal is way too super freaking tight the aft and fwd edge of the door will flex on the seal and your pins will still not line up perfectly. Again the angled pins or Van's pins will make the transition easier on the door.
 
Thanks for the feedback. My problem is I probably rigged/trimmed and fitted my doors to tight and prior to installing seals. The vans seals left a huge gap of about 2 inches. The MC seals are great and left about a 1/4 inch gap. Today with some minor adjustments I have closed both doors although still tighter than I would like. After a few days of seal compression I will decide if more tweaking is required.

I do already have the bullet type pins with the magnets for the proxy switch.

If I were to do it over I would start with the MC seals and rig/trim with the seals installed.

The doors are a challenge. Van can get close to the 51% rule with just the doors, a little exaggeration but Van certainly has the opportunity to improve the door design, hinges and latch issues and make significant improvements to an already great airplane.

Pat Stewart
 
Ya no kidding the quickbuild kit could just have the doors ready to hang. I think my slow build Fuse and Wing aluminum work went faster than the doors.
 
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