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What can I do to make the Airventure arrival better?

Ironflight

VAF Moderator / Line Boy
Mentor
OK, there is another epic thread running about the proposed improvements to the Airventure arrival after last year’s massive debacle on the opening weekend. A lot of time and effort is being put in by a lot of people to revise the procedures that have been used for the past twenty or thirty years, and which revealed their lack of margin for when things go wrong. Folks can debate the reasons things went sideways, they can debate the improvements to the procedures, they can debate if they are ever going to fly in to the show again. But you know what? You probably aren’t going to have much of an affect on those new procedures. Complain, shout and scream all you want on the internet…others are making those changes.

But you know what you CAN do? The same thing that I (me, personally) can do – I can list the things that I (me, personally) will do to make my arrival safer for everyone – including myself. That is what this thread is about. Taking personal responsibility for myself and others out there in the wild blue Wisconsin sky. Many of the problems last year were created by pilots who simply ignored the rules and held themselves first and foremost – they cared not for what they were doing to anyone else. And that, my friends, is a way to make the skies very ugly indeed.

So here is the start of my list.

1) I will ALWAYS follow the NOTAM – or I won’t go to Oshkosh during the show. I won’t rationalize why I fudge here and there. I won’t fly a little faster, or a little higher than the NOTAM says. I will be exactly where it says to be.
2) I will listen a long ways out so that I know if the arrival is going well, or if a furball is going on.
3) I will NEVER hold in the air – I will find a great spot on the ground to go and sit, probably where an EAA chapter is holding a pancake breakfast, and I can visit with other pilots who are waiting as well.
4) I will time my arrival to be at an off-peak period. First thing in the morning has always been good – and I mean right as things open up. Practice those “time on target” skills. (Full disclosure – my current job generally has me arriving on Thursday – easy-peasy.)
5) I will give way to others – there are lots of places I can go and land.
6) I will always remember that the world will not end if I don’t make it in to Airventure with my plane(s).

That’s a start – I have others, but I will let others add their own. Remember - this is about personal responsibility – you can’t control what others do, only what you do yourself.
 
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I wrote an article for Kitplanes some years back on making sure that your flying skills are completely up to snuff, and the last time I flew into AirVenture, I got to use lots of those skills. So point #1 is to make sure your skills are up to the task.

Point #2 is to know when to call off flying to Oshkosh. At my age, I'm just not willing to put up with confusion and hassles. Since I have to rent a car anyway, it's just as easy to rent a car at an airport a few hours drive away at cheaper rates.

Point #3 is to know when to take the airlines, as you've written about, Paul. Last year, I had a three day window to make the trip before I had to be there. On day three, I burned airline miles and flew in to Chicago. The airline made a huge detour around weather. I could have flown half way and then sat on the ground for several days, instrument rated or not...

PS. Not at all in line with your topic, but wouldn't it be interesting if there was a $250 landing fee at Oshkosh, but no charge if you had a copy of the current NOTAM on board, either paper or electronic.
 
Paul, thanks for getting this started.

Some other thoughts:

As a member of the pilot community I will help to get the word out that there are new procedures coming. I will attend Chapter meetings where possible and talk about the new procedures.

If/when things go wrong this coming year, I will NOT key my mic and say accusatory things

I will adopt a safety first attitude and not a me-first attitude

I will leave for OSH knowing that there could be delays and I will plan accordingly

I will trust that others are trying to do their job right, and remember that if someone isn't quite doing it the way I would like it done, I will remember that I was once a newbie to and I had to learn to, and that I probably made some mistakes along the way.

I will remember that we are doing this FOR FUN. :)

Vic
 
The referenced thread is not, "epic".

What IS epic is it takes a no-kidding NASA Astronaut (eta, and "Kitplanes" writers) to start a thread posting what should be already ingrained baseline pilot.

What would George Carlin say?

The Pareto 80/20 & 5% rules apply and must be factored in right alongside all the great work helping keep lots of folks flying in safely and efficiently.

Me, well, I will continue accurately flying 90 and 1/2 mile spacing. Only 1 of those 2 can commonly be practiced and both are rarer displays. I have not and will never say, "90" nor "1/2 mile" on the arrival freqs.
 
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Oshkosh Arrival,

Paul,
I do disagree a bit with some of the attitude of not utilizing the higher arrival if your capable of doing the 135 kts. The last two years I utilized the higher altitude and only had a joyful experience arriving and landing on 27.


It frees up the lower altitude where over several years I have been cut in, out, and around by other planes. Like instrument RNAV approaches if you can fly the procedure then fly it, if not then use another method suitable for your aircraft and experience level. Or land early and take a BUS.

I would encourage folks to make sure they are not talking on the ATIS frequency.

I would encourage folks to find that aircraft ahead of them on the appropriate route (railroad track) and stay in trail of that aircraft.

Like you plan your arrival at a non peak time.

If your VFR do not be flying in and out of the clouds trying to get to Ripon or Frisk intersection don't make a situation more hazardous.

Stay off the radio except in an emergency. The arrival to Oshkosh does not constitute an emergency.

Be seen,, turn on your lights all of them...

Just my thoughts...

Smilin' Jack
 
One of the things I instituted when President of the Charlotte EAA chapter 309 was to host NOTAM reviews.

We would have people who have flown the into AirVenture or Sun-n-Fun talk through the NOTAM.

Then we would fly it on Google Earth.

After that we would hold a Q&A session so the people who were to fly it the first time could ask questions.

Personally, I would write down all the frequencies and headings on a pad of paper that would be on my kneepad. Not only that, I would preload the frequencies in my radio and make sure my passenger knew how to tune those frequencies into the radio.

Then I would go practice slowflight and make sure I was comfortable flying at just above stall.
 
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Choose your own minimums. Don't let others influence you.

If the ceiling is too low for you, don't go.

If you don't like the circling holds, leave and go land or create your own hold 10 miles away.

If your fuel state is questionable, decide early and often to stop.

Establish a minimum in-trail speed. If slower traffic means you can't go that fast or faster on the arrival, bail out.

Use the NOTAM, common sense, and your eyeballs.
 
Stop 50-100 miles outside of KOSH.
Take on max fuel load
Unload and reload liquids.
Look at weather.
Listen to KOSH ATIS.
Bookmark pages or pullout NOTAM pages of active runways. (2)
Have freqs and parking signs readily available.

Brief plan A, Expect the unknown

Fly safe, keep your heads outside. Don?t be watching the screens.
 
Mostly good comments so far folks - but I would encourage you to use the pronoun “I”...not “you” .....OWN these thoughts. Don’t tell others what THEY should be doing - make a pledge to control what you can control...YOUR actions.

Others may follow your lead....you never know....
 
The Choir

There's some irony here in that those who are engaged enough to respond to this post are clearly engaged enough to have briefed the NOTAM, given some thought and planning to the whole thing and resolved to be generally prepared.

The problems encountered with the arrival are caused by folks that have done little of the above and in their ignorance and/or arrogance, crashed the party in the full knowledge that there's no enforcement of the rules, regardless of the serious danger they cause.

I've flown in several times, carefully followed the procedure only to be descended upon, overtaken while at the prescribed speed, cut off multiple times, and the perennial favorite - told to break off and rejoin after some dipstick inserts himself into my carefully managed in-trail separation. Us rule followers have all been there...

I live close enough to launch and be there pronto when the ATIS and ATC feed on the inter web indicates it's go time. Not this year though - no way no how was I going to subject myself and my passengers to the fur ball that was unfolding on the radio. I unloaded the plane and drove up, no regrets, except the realization that I'll probably not fly in again unless things change.

So I guess that's it for my introspective, Paul, I just won't do it anymore.
 
No Whining Allowed

No whining on this thread about what others have done to you. WE are past that. This thread is about what each of us as pilots are going to do to insure our safety.

This is a movement. :)

If I see any other posts on this thread about problems caused by others WITHOUT an active solution performed by the OP, I will delete it. There is another thread regarding OSH ideas that you can post on.

As an example, on the last thread, the solution could be that the person is going to get actively engaged where he/she can, be it chapters, posts, emails, etc. to make others aware of the new procedures.

No ONE person here can fix everything. But all of us working together and as individuals can and will have a major impact.

That's why it is a MOVEMENT. I look forward to everyone here joining it.

Vic
 
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I (personally) will never fly into Airventure the Sunday before the show. I?ll do my part to relieve congestion on that day.

I will continue to make my arrival during quieter days/times. Early mornings, Friday before the show, Tuesday or later.

I will continue to practice all aspects of an Airventure arrival. Slow flight, close patterns, extending landings down the runway, sidestepping, right traffic etc.

I will make proper go/no go decisions regarding weather.

I will be ready and compliant to bail out of the conga line or a hold

I will strive to be a solution, not a problem
 
Lots of good ideas here.

My personal addition to the list is that I will not fly solo into Oshkosh. Have only flown in once (2018), arrived in a low traffic period on Friday before the event, and generally had a terrific trip. BUT it was a low-stress affair because there was another qualified pilot in the seat beside me who had the sole job of flying the airplane. I was PIC and had responsibilities for ensuring the NOTAM was followed, for communication, for navigation and for monitoring traffic. This worked out fabulously. I just can't see how I would ever be comfortable in a busy environment like that flying solo.

Everybody has their own limitations - I'm getting a feel for what my limitations are and I really appreciated having a highly qualified "meat servo" with me to fly the approach while I managed everything else.

I will also ensure that my own skills and those of my crew members are sharp. A week before departing for OSH we spent almost two hours flying a very close facsimile to the OSH arrival at our own airport, including doing the entire thing at 60 knots. There's huge value in having absolute confidence in your ability to handle the airplane at those lower speeds, and to knowing the airplane will perform.

Enroute to OSH we stopped at Escanaba for a bio break, to take on food and water, and to full the tanks. We arrived at OSH with fresh weather info, a fresh attitude, and 5 hours of fuel on board. We had pre-briefed our alternates and the conditions that would cause us to use them.

Oh, it also helps that my "meat servo" is a commercial helicopter pilot. The 1800 MSL ceiling and lower visibility was, to him, a cake walk when one considers he's spent a lot of time flying helicopters in weather that would keep us fixed wing folks on the ground.

One more point... Spot landings. I will continue to practice spot landings from a variety of approach positions, from both left and right patterns, from low and high. We were asked to land on the white dot on RWY 9. A member of our EAA chapter snapped a photo of us landing, with one main wheel touching down about two feet past the middle of the white dot. VERY satisfying to see our practice had paid off, and that we have photographic evidence to prove it!
 
No Whining

Alright Vic - fair point about whining about past transgressions of others, 'nuff said about that. I guess my (poorly made) point was that the audience we seek to reach won't be found in discussions like this, or voluntary safety briefings at chapters, or anywhere else where by definition the people paying attention are doing so because they seek to understand and follow the prescribed rules.

Maybe we'll get someone on here who will admit to not reading the NOTAM, or who happens across this thread and resolves to straighten up and fly right next year. Maybe.

Here's what I'll do to contribute to safety...
Lots of us have GoPros rigged on our planes. I'm going to work with the people who are already onboard with the process (like those on here and at chapter safety briefings), to submit their videos of bad behavior on the arrival and post it to a website (the EAA should host it) for all to see. That way, newbies can learn what not to do and offenders will be held to some degree of peer level accountability short of FAA enforcement.

Now, it would be just my luck to make a mistake and be called out for all to see, but I'm fine with that - we all should be in the name of safety.
 
Paddy's point is valid. Mostly what we're doing here is relinquishing the approach to the folks who don't care.

If it's the only path, my contribution will be to research the alternate airports, with an eye toward knowing the best place to go. "Best" means knowing the fine details of gas, food, transportation, and lodging, because I'm human; if those things are unknown, I may hesitate to go there when it is decision time.
 
There is an axiom that says we are ALL only 6 or 7 people away from knowing everyone in the world. By spending time communicating, writing articles, working with other aviation conduits, etc., we WILL and CAN get the word out.

I do agree with "shaming" those who flagrantly screw up on purpose, when the time comes.

We've got a good thing going here with some great contributions already. Let's keep going. :)

Vic
 
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OK, I will try to keep this to my behavior and not others.

My biggest fault is the pressure of time, get there to not miss something that I am really looking forward to, such as the Sunday evening beer party at HBC or the Monday night get together. So, I plan to arrive as early as Friday afternoon or Saturday morning if possible.

The last two years the weather has played a big roll in my arrival time and I promise to not let that happen again. I will do my best to give up those events in the name of safety.

I really like the idea of hosting a Notem review night at our Chapter. I will suggest we do that and offer to organize it with inviting all the chapters around us and the flying clubs that are not part of EAA as well.

I will continue to follow this forum looking for ideas to implement if I can.

Fly Safe.
 
I would love to see this get to the point where pilots flying into OSH talk about "those RV guys really got their stuff together", and set the bar a bit higher for others to look up to. I would really, REALLY love to have the only problems associated with getting into OSH be ground-associated problems like ATC or runways/taxiways.

I'll continue to grump and grouse about problems I see, because let's face it, I'm a grumpy old man and that's what we do best - but I will also do all I can to provide that good example that we need to be. I am confident that my tail number won't be one of the "items of discussion" and I intend to keep it that way.
 
Hopefully this isn't too far off topic, as it does relate to NOTAM reviews at chapter meetings...

When I lived in Iowa, at one EAA Chapter meeting a member talked of being out flying around and a friend suggested they go to Oshkosh for the day. "Just follow me," said the leader, and off then went, no NOTAM, no briefing, no nothing.

The really ugly part of this story is while this guy was bragging, everybody else was chuckling along, way to go, great story. Then I called the guy out, and it got quiet. Then he got his second wind, but instead of calling him out, I called out the chapter members as a group for tolerating and encouraging his behavior. It got real quiet them.

Independence is an American cultural value, accountability is not.

For all of us to take a leadership position, to do things right and spread the word is a truly great first step, and kudos to Ironflight for starting this thread. But it may not be enough...
 
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I would love to see this get to the point where pilots flying into OSH talk about "those RV guys really got their stuff together", and set the bar a bit higher for others to look up to.

Yep, me too, but... probably not gonna happen. In a OSH arrival discussion a few days ago on another forum was this comment from a controller;

"As a 5 time OSH Controller and now Team Lead....

In my personal opinion (not the FAA's) one of the problems is the RV guys not wanting to fly 90 knots. I don't own one, however, I was given a ride in an RV-9 a few years ago and I hand flew the arrival during the show from the backseat at 90 knots with ZERO issues. Add some flaps and the airplane flies just fine."


It's a mindset thing; "I'm in a RV. It's fast! I'll fly the high/fast arrival". And it's not just RV guys doing this; I saw on yet another forum a guy in a C-182RG commenting on how he prefers to fly the high/fast arrival. In a 182RG no less, as if that's a fast ship. Many pilots appear to read page 4 of the Notam regarding speeds and interpret it subjectively to fit how they'd prefer to fly and not follow the intent of the rule.

How do you change that thinking? No idea. "Preaching" on VAF or other forums seems like a good way to do it, but not all pilots, RV or otherwise, participate in online forums to "expand their minds" so to speak. Anyhoo... back to brainstorming!
 
Yep, me too, but... probably not gonna happen. In a OSH arrival discussion a few days ago on another forum was this comment from a controller;

"As a 5 time OSH Controller and now Team Lead....

In my personal opinion (not the FAA's) one of the problems is the RV guys not wanting to fly 90 knots. I don't own one, however, I was given a ride in an RV-9 a few years ago and I hand flew the arrival during the show from the backseat at 90 knots with ZERO issues. Add some flaps and the airplane flies just fine."


It's a mindset thing; "I'm in a RV. It's fast! I'll fly the high/fast arrival". And it's not just RV guys doing this; I saw on yet another forum a guy in a C-182RG commenting on how he prefers to fly the high/fast arrival. In a 182RG no less, as if that's a fast ship. Many pilots appear to read page 4 of the Notam regarding speeds and interpret it subjectively to fit how they'd prefer to fly and not follow the intent of the rule.

How do you change that thinking? No idea. "Preaching" on VAF or other forums seems like a good way to do it, but not all pilots, RV or otherwise, participate in online forums to "expand their minds" so to speak. Anyhoo... back to brainstorming!

He might remember the RV part accurately, but he did NOT hand-fly an RV-9 from the back seat - which makes me call into question the rest of the story.

But your point is well made - it's up to us to change that. Having just finished my IFR ticket in my 9A I can confirm the airplane is indeed quite happy with one notch of flaps at 90 knots.
 
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He might remember the RV part accurately, but he did NOT hand-fly an RV-9 from the back seat - which makes me call into question the rest of the story.

But your point is well made - it's up to us to change that. Having just finished my IFR ticket in my 9A I can confirm the airplane is indeed quite happy with one notch of flaps at 90 knots.

My -7A has a pretty solid feel at 90 knots. How do you get a "notch" of flaps in your -9A?

I'd plan to arrive during off peak hours, if I could only figure out when those are. I had to search no less than 10 websites to figure out when the mass arrivals were proposed to take place last year.
 
My -7A has a pretty solid feel at 90 knots. How do you get a "notch" of flaps in your -9A?

Showplanes flap positioning system and a momentary-down and toggle up switch on the stick. Each bump down will send it to 10, 20, and full respectively, and toggle up will suck them all the way up.
 
Question for Smilin Jack the jet jockey

Ok so I take the 2300 ft. 135 knot arrival in. If I am landing on 9 or 36 at what point can I slow down without getting run over by a PC12? I have no downwind on these approaches to slow down in the pattern.


John Morgan

Maybe We should come in for the 4 th of July and just wait it out!
 
When the NOTAM says: "Capable 90 KIAS", I will fly 90 KIAS and not go to a higher altitude just because I can fly at the higher speed. IF I cannot fly 90 KIAS with whatever payload I have in my RV Aircraft, I will stay away from Oshkosh AirVenture.
 
KOSH

Kumbaya
I will bailout and go back to start no matter how many times Im cut off.
Kumbaya
I will not give up no matter how many times the Fisk controller gives up and tells every on to turn around and go back to start over and they turn around and fly straight at me.
Kumbaya
I will not give up no matter how far the EAA and FAA move the starting point even if its 90 nautical miles at 90kt I will fly it behind a helicopter @ 80kts like I have before but I want hold with a bunch of other planes that have never flown formation before.
Kumbaya
Bob
 
Hey Old Buddy John,
I look at it like an approach. As you know old buddy I have flown about 75 different makes and models as well as several jet type ratings.

PC12's , Citations 500, Challengers are not coming into Oshkosh VFR. and if a PC12 did he can slow to 110 kts with out falling out of the sky. Since he qualifies for a Catagory A IFR approach he can slow down into the double digits.

My point of the whole discussion is that Oshkosh Notam tries to funnel all aircraft from the south into one footprint. From LSA's to Cessna 210's,
While a 210 is a lot more comfortable flying 120 kts they too can slow down to 90 but when you get an aircraft that cuts in front of them at 80 kts because they can not maintain the 90 we have a problem. The pilot of the high performance single is now made to reduce power and possibly S turn to avoid the aircraft in front of him. and now you have created the domino effect.. like an interstate rush hour. Bumper to Bumper traffic and folks engaging in Road Rage.

If there were say 4 distinct altitudes for arrivals VFR with dedicated runways for each altitude and a specific speed that had to be maintained until short 1/2 mile final it would spread out the cluster.

When planes come into Hartsfield. They are told over the Arrival ATIS what runways to expect and one of two Approach controllers determines the final arrival route and runway. Planes are sequenced to one of 2 runways for Landing but I have seen 4 runways for landing also.

My only reason for using the upper altitude on the Oshkosh arrival.
1. It does not say twins only or if your stall speed is above 90 kts. the only criteria was 135 kts. I really would not care if I was in a RV or Cessna 210. I can fly a Challenger all day at 140 kts. so it is not so much the speed issue.

2. It takes some of the traffic off the lower altitude.

3 If there was another corridor then other planes could come in on those to different runways.

Make the arrival times at Oshkosh for time periods of lets say 8 to 10 are for landings only Saturdays, Sundays, Monday. (Tuesday the arrival traffic usually slows down. Make a time say 10-11 for departures on and perhaps 1-2pm for departures SAT, Sun, Mon except for emergencies or life flights which could be any time needed.

They could make 9/27 a runway
The parallel taxi way a runway

we already have Runway 18/36 and the parallel taxi way as a runway
Now you have 4 runways for landings. coming off of 4 different corridors, 4 different altitudes and being sequenced into 4 different runways.

I don't have it worked out... just throwing out a idea that could be a work around.

I personally think a lot of first time pilots have a hard time picking out the railroad tracks... to Frisk. Maybe we need neon signs of the ground
saying this way :)

LIke I said just an idea that could use a lot more thinking on.

Jack
 
What I learned the hard (and expensive) way is:

Practice flying at arrival speed, altitude, AND WEIGHT. Doing it solo and empty isn't exactly the same as two up and max baggage. And how much weight do I have in those tanks?
 
My only reason for using the upper altitude on the Oshkosh arrival. 1. It does not say twins only or if your stall speed is above 90 kts. the only criteria was 135 kts.

2. It takes some of the traffic off the lower altitude.

Yep, sure does. The high guys drop 500 feet into the pattern, blind as moles to traffic under them, and dependent on the tower to sequence into the downwind...which the controllers often accomplish by sending the low traffic back to Ripon. Been there, done that, with a friend's 14 year old in the back seat, and I didn't like it one bit.
 
My 2 things

1) I will always brief the NOTAM, and then brief it again with a focus on the ?plan B? for each phase of the arrival. I used to pay attention to each procedure based on everything going to plan, but for safety, I think it?s just as important to have a prepared ?out? for each portion of the procedure. For example, what if you?re on downwind for 27 and heading out over the lake, but you haven?t heard a call from Tower to make your base turn? (Hint: Do NOT turn to base and hope they work you into the sequence.)

2) Until my research reveals better insight, I will continue to fly the low and slow pattern in any aircraft that is capable of flying it. I?ve flown to OSH twice in a twin, and both times I used the low and slow route. Why? I?m not as knowledgeable as many on this forum, but from direct conversations with OSH controllers, I?ve determined that the system works more efficiently if everyone who can use the low and slow route does use the low and slow route.

3) I will continue to evaluate the OSH arrival procedures with a focus on how I can safely complete the flight, but cause minimum disruption to others. Where I have questions, I will seek out guidance from OSH controllers and other show organizers to see what works best from their perspective.

Fly safe,

Matthew
 
He might remember the RV part accurately, but he did NOT hand-fly an RV-9 from the back seat - which makes me call into question the rest of the story.

Actually, this controller calling it an RV-9 with a back seat is irrelevant. Most pilots can identify an RV, but not necessarily by the numbers; they might not know a RV-4 from a -12. Doesn't matter. What matters is that he flew an RV-4 or 8, knows what it can do and is frustrated by RV guys flying the high/fast arrival.

Yep, sure does. The high guys drop 500 feet into the pattern, blind as moles to traffic under them, and dependent on the tower to sequence into the downwind...which the controllers often accomplish by sending the low traffic back to Ripon. Been there, done that, with a friend's 14 year old in the back seat, and I didn't like it one bit.

Exactly. In a C-310 or Baron, I get it, use the high arrival. But for 98% of the single engine arrivals (except for perhaps a Swearingen SX300 or Questair Venture), the low arrival works. But, it goes back to that mindset I mentioned previously, "But, but... I can do 135 kts!"
 
With all these unsafe RV pilots that cannot fly 90 but want to fly 135 going to Oshkosh AirVenture, I prefer not to be associated with them so will just quit taking my RV airplane to Oshkosh AirVenture.
 
I will land at Baraboo for free donuts and cheap gas before the last leg to OSH.
I will keep paying my kid 25 cents for every airplane sighting.
I will not have "get home-itis".
I will teach everyone how to do mil ranging using the width of your thumb at arms length to accurately measure the distance to another aircraft. (even more here)
I will accept whatever runway I'm assigned and not request RWY 36 even if the last three pilots did.
I will remember flying VFR arrivals into Nellis AFB after Red Flag exercises and just be thankful that I don't have an Italian Tornado on my left wing and an Israeli F-15 on my right wing, both lost and 500# below bingo.
I will say thank you to all volunteers.
I will buy lots of ice cream at the Red Barn.
I will RTFQ and follow the theme of this thread when posting a reply.
 
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Your missing my point.

First the notam says nothing about twins or single engine at 2300 feet on the Fisk arrival.
Here it is:

Approaching Ripon
Ensure lights are on within 30 miles of
OSH.
All non-ADS-B equipped aircraft set
transponder to Standby at or before Ripon.
Obtain Arrival ATIS (125.9) no later than
15 miles from Ripon and note arrival
runways in use. Have NOTAM arrival
pages mentioned on ATIS available. Then
monitor Fisk Approach (120.7).
Arrive at Ripon
at 90 knots a
nd 1,800?.
For aircraft unable to operate comfortably
at 90 knots:

Slower aircraft should use maximum
cruising speed
. ATC recommends arriv
al
at Fisk 7:00-7:30 AM CDT, if practicable.

Faster aircraft
use 135 knots and 2,300?.





This is not the point of this post.. the point was to try to list items that might help the arrival. or even something the EAA staff might suggest to the FAA to make the whole process work better.

Try making a suggestion to help make the situation better instead of flaming a fellow pilot.
 
This is not the point of this post.. the point was to try to list items that might help the arrival. or even something the EAA staff might suggest to the FAA to make the whole process work better.

Jack, I started this thread, so I think I can tell you what the purpose of the post was - it was to ask people to personally take responsibility for making the approach to Oshkosh better for everyone - to list what they personally will do on their next trip.

That other thread is for making suggestions to others about what they should do - including the EAA and the FAA.

You?ve drifted this far enough off topic - you can easily start your own thread about why you think you should take the high road to FISKE, and let folks comment there about it.
 
Paul,
I am sorry,
Did not mean to take it on a different course. I will bow out of this one. My wife and I were the greeters for the last 3 years at homebuilt camping and we have heard from a lot of pilots and the frustrations. I think the arrival works well, if folks would do what it states and not read between the lines.

Jack
 
Paul
I beg to differ on this one and side with Jack. It?s not that I am not capable of a 90 knot approach to OSH, its that all those others around my cannot fly it and that?s what puts me in jeopardy. What if we had separate Fisk arrivals with cubs and 172s on the low side at 80 mph landing on the taxiway and Rvs and other higher performance models flying 120 mph landing on the main runway.
Then you have 2 separate patterns ( ie left or right or inside and outside) and there is no one dropping in from the high pattern on top of someone else on the low pattern.

Just my 2 cents

John Morgan
 
Paul
I beg to differ on this one and side with Jack. It?s not that I am not capable of a 90 knot approach to OSH, its that all those others around my cannot fly it and that?s what puts me in jeopardy. What if we had separate Fisk arrivals with cubs and 172s on the low side at 80 mph landing on the taxiway and Rvs and other higher performance models flying 120 mph landing on the main runway.
Then you have 2 separate patterns ( ie left or right or inside and outside) and there is no one dropping in from the high pattern on top of someone else on the low pattern.

Just my 2 cents

John Morgan

Respectfully John, then you should start your own thread on why the high road is the right way to fly the approach in an RV, and see how folks respond. You?ve already seen comments here from experienced pilots that say it puts those on the low road in a riskier position - and why.

You can also comment on the thread on how the EAA and FAA should change the approach...
 
Everyone, let's keep this thread about how we are going to improve ourselves with regards to flying to OSH 2019.

I will be very clear about this----- we as RV pilots are beginning to get a bad reputation from the controllers. With as many people as participate on this forum there's a pretty good chance that one or more of the offenders are here.

I don't want to hear about the "other" guys who did something, cut me off, etc.

This is about us improving our flying and our reputation. Take it as a challenge if you want, but stay focused.

Vic
 
In keeping with the "I will" theme

I will fly the 90/1800 approach with a practiced 90 knots even though I am capable of 135/2300 and feel generally safer doing so.

I will set the plane up at 90/1800 well ahead of Ripon to make sure I am stabilized on the numbers

I will follow the plane in front of me at whatever trail the controller is asking for or turn out if need be for safety.

If I am tired from a long flight, I will land somewhere outside of the Oshkosh terminal area for a break and refresh so I am at the top of the slow flight game for arrival. (I?m not sure about others, but I find transitioning my mindset from high cruse to slow maneuvering flight for landing takes a little mental stretching)

I will study, highlight key phrases/frequencies before departure, then have the NOTAM at hand, then follow the NOTAM for every Oshkosh arrival.

I will turn out when the clown in front of me is anywhere from 60 to 75 knots and all over the sky, since I don?t like dragging around on the prop with the stall horn chirping trying to follow someone who obviously doesn?t know what he/she is doing.

I will follow in trail (or turn out as I may be safer than following) all the way across Lake Winnebago rather than cut another plane off on base. (A tough call since the controller was constantly repeating NOT to go past the lake shore, and no one was in front of ?that? guy, who also cut in front of me at Ripon ? no wining :D)

I will maintain my speed (when able) until short final because I know my plane and have practiced slowing to landing speed on final rather than downwind. I also consider it good manners to get out of the way for those behind.

I will practice every variation of approach (fast, slow, flaps, no flaps, turning final, straight in, etc..) so I am ready for whatever Oshkosh approach throws at me.

I will come to Oshkosh every year so long as I am able to do my part of flying a safe accurate arrival. When I can no longer do that, I will become a menace on the highway and drive in.

I will immensely enjoy every aspect of the show while I am there
 
RV Mass Arrival

I will imagine an RV mass arrival. Imagine a 400 aircraft mass arrival, landing in 4 ?waves? of 100 each, on a beautiful sunny Sunday afternoon, gentle breeze from the north, on runways 36R&L. Now that would make a statement. Not sure exactly what type of statement, but a statement to be sure. Don?t worry, it?s just my imagination, and we?re all free to imagine, right? :)

????????-
Wayne - 1179J
9a purchased
 
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