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Oh Skyview, Where Art Thou

KALEWIS

KALEWIS

Well Known Member
From VANS :

It could be late January for the skyview release, still unknown on the price too.
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We are 95% thru the engine kit and working on the cowling....need the "new" panel pieces to route the engine controls....blah.

If the reason for halting the D-180 was the 496 being discontinued, for me, so what...the 496's are just fine for our needs. The skyview is nifty, but its an RV-12, not an Airbus. Van's could still sell the "old" avionics kit for us waiting.....and give vouchers for a vendor still selling the 496's. That could work...and get some more -12's in the air !!
 
Wow, did you realize.....

I had a new baby faster than the Skyview came out!

The P-51 went from drawings to first flight in less than 9 months.

Apollo 11 launched, went to the moon, they walked around and came back in less than 8 days

At least we know it will be done right when it does come out.
 
I was day dreaming this morning, I have an old altimeter and airspeed, if I duct taped them to the panel, I can probably get in the air without further delay.
 
KALEWIS said:
From VANS :

It could be late January for the skyview release, still unknown on the price too.
Click to expand...

I have not started building or buying for that matter but there is something I don't understand... I see A LOT of these threads that people are waiting on something from VANS. So my question is: Outside of the ACTUAL airframe why buy it from Vans? People waiting on engines, instruments, etc etc. So why not buy directly fom Dynon, or Aero Sport Engines, etc? I can only assume you are saving tens of thousands of dollars getting them from Vans and waiting this long. I have seen people on here waiting 6+ months for stuff...

Thanks for the insight for a future builder!
 
In principle the RV-12 is an E-LSA. If you want to go that way you need to buy the package from Van's. If you go EAB you can choose your own panel. In the Netherlands we only have the experimental category but as a first time builder I choose to go the easy way and wait for the plug and play package from Van's
(although some more info from Van's side would be appreciated).

p.s. Zenithair have a Skyview package for the CH-750 which maybe can be used for the RV-12.
 
Well it is not as bad as we who moan about it indicate. The avionics wait is because of an upgrade by Vans, I am unaware of any other 12 delays. Since I am EAB I went to Oshkosh to buy a Skyview, but when reconsidering it, Vans has a super installation kit, starting with the panel itself, and then to their plug and play box, and the new wing connectors are part of that. I decided it was just too much hassle for me, I would rather just wait for the good stuff.
Although it appears what we want is not a very high priority to Vans, we must realize that Vans is supporting a very large builders base, the 12 is only a small part of their total fleet, and Vans has a history of wanting to get it right when it is finally released. All that considered, I still want my Skyview kit - YESTERDAY!
 
There are significant advantages to going E-LSA vs. E-AB - other threads detail those. I've been a patient "waiter." If I was to change and go E-AB now there is a lot of system integration I would have to figure out, and I would probably get that sorted after Van's releases Skyview.

The frustrating thing is the lack of communication from Van's. I think they should tell us what is going on and what are the issues. All we have are, basically, rumors that keep basically saying "next month." Their factory plane is done - I don't understand what can be holding up the release.

Also, I don't buy the "RV-12 is a small part of their business" thing. We are a small part of the fleet, but 7000 completed planes do not require development support from Vans - and this is a development issue, not spare parts.

The 12 is a big part of their current business - there are probably 100 of us out here "waiting for Skyview" (in the serious sense of not being able to make any more progress until it is issued - my plane is painted for crying out loud!) and the other planes are NOT in the situation we are in about E-AB vs. E-LSA. All the people currently building other planes are not waiting for needed sub-kits or redesigns; they expect to do their own avionics anyway. I can't imagine there is any other development effort at Vans that is taking up resources.

I am a first-time builder that is really happy with Vans. Their communication is the only thing that needs some serious improvement. Customers that have dropped over $50,000 of discretionary income deserve better communication than we are getting now.
 
I shouldn't be speculating but it could be a paperwork thing getting the E-LSA approval. Like everyone is saying, just a hint from VAN's would be good business.
 
New wing connectors?

Don, I have not heard about this. What is different about the new wing connectors?
 
SV

For goodness sake Guys Give them a break they are Perfecting a Plug & Play SV sytem that has to be Approved as well so settle Petals!
 
Redneck Solution to Skyview Delay

Yeah, hook up a temporary setup and get on with the build! A little duct tape, some old steam gauges, and a handheld radio is all we really need anyhow.
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Not to stick my nose in the avionics mess--

But, is the Skyview the only choice here that Vans could offer? Is there another option, like something from MGL?
I understand the kit regulations on LSA, but if you cant supply the parts, you are not going to sell kits. And those that you have sold are not going to fly unless a solution happens. Just thinking outloud.
Tom
 
Great work Don!

DonFromTX said:
Yeah, hook up a temporary setup and get on with the build! A little duct tape, some old steam gauges, and a handheld radio is all we really need anyhow.
I can't help but admire the craftmanship Don. It's a work of art, and a great example of what `experimental' really means. You're a hard act to follow. :)
Click to expand...
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Thanks Don. :mad:

I got up this am, turned up my puter and started reading VAF with my morning coffee. After seeing your Skyview alternative I now need a new comuter, a new cup of coffee, and I need to change my clothes.


;)
 
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Well thanks, they don't just give these A&P ratings away in cereal boxes you know, you have to prove you know how to make things work
.
rgmwa said:
DonFromTX said:
Yeah, hook up a temporary setup and get on with the build! A little duct tape, some old steam gauges, and a handheld radio is all we really need anyhow.
I can't help but admire the craftmanship Don. It's a work of art, and a great example of what `experimental' really means. You're a hard act to follow. :)
Click to expand...
Click to expand...
Click to expand...
 
TSFlightlines - it is not the Skyview - Dynon has plenty of them ready to ship and they are proven in the field. It is (probably) the modifications, plans, revisions to the operating and maintenance manuals, etc. If there is any hardware issue, it is probably the power distribution and switching system, which looks custom to Vans - including custom circuit boards. I'm surprised they didn't just go with Vertical Power.
 
Geico266 said:
Thanks Don. :mad:

I got up this am, turned up my puter and started reading VAF with my morning coffee. After seeing your Skyview alternative I now need a new comuter, a new cup of coffee, and I need to change my clothes.


;)
Click to expand...

Larry, it's the "pathological" virus. After I saw that I felt dirty! Thanks Don!
 
We are just guessing here, but it is my belief that since this is for ELSA as well, it takes some sort of approval from the FAA to incorporate such a change in addition to all the hands on work. I know some other improvements and changes were not adopted simply for that reason, too much nonsense to go thru to get it approved.
 
Oh Ok- Bill

Now I'm a little more educated on this issue. I've been reading about it for a long time, but havent paid alot of attention. I just have read that alot of
-12s were being held up because of the "skyview" issue. So, WRONGLY thinking is was a vendor issue (no offense intended to Dynon), I was just wondering about a different EFIS.
Tom



Bill_H said:
TSFlightlines - it is not the Skyview - Dynon has plenty of them ready to ship and they are proven in the field. It is (probably) the modifications, plans, revisions to the operating and maintenance manuals, etc. If there is any hardware issue, it is probably the power distribution and switching system, which looks custom to Vans - including custom circuit boards. I'm surprised they didn't just go with Vertical Power.
Click to expand...
 
Occupy Vans

In the spirit of the "Occupy Wall Street" protesters I propose you guys waiting for Skyview "Occupy Vans". You can camp in their parking lot in tents and sleeping bags and pee on their lawn. Surly they will get the message and at least give you a hat.



;)
 
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We'll need signs.
"SKYVIEW FOR THE 99%!"
"Power to the EFIS!"
"Give Us Trickle-down Avionics!"
 
I will admit, I am glad that VANS is taking the time to get it right...communication of progress would be nice...has mitch's blue -12 been upgraded yet for an install testbed?

Anyway,

It would be a great improvement if communication was stepped up as to "what they are working on"....Maybe some pictures of progress or some status reports once a week so at least those of us waiting have something to look at while we wait. Or a "hey by the way, if your finished with the finish kit, here are some things you can start changing for skyview"...

A large sum of $$$ is put into these -12's, and some of us have put deposits/credits on our VANS acct for the skyview. That should get us something.

Not complaining, just saying
 
I had offered to put down a deposit, or pay for it in full several months ago, they did not want any money to put me on a priority list.
 
Don,

Vans allowed us to send in the old avionics order form with 25% of the total or at least 25% of what we thought it would be...somewhere in the range of 3500. That is now a credit with vans. On the order form I wrote " waiting for sky view" the lady I spoke with said she would put it in the pending skyview order file.

This was back in July. When skyview was to be released by September
 
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Hi KALEWIS,

Let me first say I hold no ill feelings toward you as you are just looking out for your own best interest.

If Van's puts anyone on a list before allowing the many others who have been waiting for over a year with out any option to send money to secure a delivery position then they are as bad as they have been described in the worst of the messages on this list.

Most of us who are waiting have already paid them over $ 50,000 to buy five of the six kits and have had that money tied up for as much as a year. Most of us will get little or no warranty on our engines as it is running off sitting waiting for them to offer an avionics kit which keeps slipping from spring to summer to fall and now to next year with no real information except the cheer leading at Arlington.

Is this the same Van's that built the best in the industry reputation?

Best regards,
Vern



KALEWIS said:
Don,

Vans allowed us to send in the old avionics order form with 25% of the total or at least 25% of what we thought it would be...somewhere in the range of 3500. That is now a credit with vans. On the order form I wrote " waiting for sky view" the lady I spoke with said she would put it in the pending skyview order file.

This was back in July. When skyview was to be released by September
Click to expand...
 
Vern,

Nothing was said about a priority waiting list. We have $$ credited to our vans builder acct that will go towards the avionics kit when available. The secretary said our order form would be placed with the other pending skyview orders.

Also, our understanding is the engine warranty begins when you recv the airworthiness cert. Lockwood instructed us to send Rotax a copy of it when we obtain it.
 
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OK - a couple months ago I read all the engine warranty posts then went to some Canadian website to do the registration - and did not succeed. So I called Lockwood. I faxed them my information and they registered me. AND on a later call they told me that they took care of that "extended warranty" thing when they registered me. They told me to LOG the date of the first engine run. Then, IF I have a warranty claim, to be able to produce a copy of that logged date (and not to "send anything in" when I run the engine the first time.) Kudos to Lockwood! I've bought several things from them - the oil sensor relocator kit (for after inspection), compression tester, carb synch tester, oil tank quick drain, spare spark plug, spare exhaust spring, spare carb o-rings.
 
Bill_H said:
OK - a couple months ago I read all the engine warranty posts then went to some Canadian website to do the registration - and did not succeed. So I called Lockwood. I faxed them my information and they registered me. AND on a later call they told me that they took care of that "extended warranty" thing when they registered me. They told me to LOG the date of the first engine run. Then, IF I have a warranty claim, to be able to produce a copy of that logged date (and not to "send anything in" when I run the engine the first time.) Kudos to Lockwood! I've bought several things from them - the oil sensor relocator kit (for after inspection), compression tester, carb synch tester, oil tank quick drain, spare spark plug, spare exhaust spring, spare carb o-rings.
Click to expand...

Now that Bill has solved Vern?s engine warranty concern, I wanted to point out that Skyview has never been offered as an option for the RV-12.
It has always been stated that it would replace the D-180 and Garmin 49X when the Garmin product was phased out.

The very last D-180 RV-12 avionics kit was shipped to the customer mid July 2011. That means that the longest any customer has actually been waiting for an avionics kit is a little more than 4 months. Still more than anyone had hoped, but no where near the year that has been mentioned.

I can fully understand a customer making a decision to wait for an upgrade that is proposed for future release, but is it reasonable to then complain about the time it takes to become available. I don't think it is.

If Intel leaks info about a new generation computer chip that will be coming out in the future, it is a customers prerogative to hold of on making a new computer purchase, but I don't think they have much of a complaint against Intel if it takes a year for it to happen.

Same situation with the RV-12. I understand that some customers have had money tied up in an unfinished airplane kit... but the reality is, for most of them, that was their choice (they could have purchased a D-180 avionics kit up until mid July).

Here's hoping, that most of the people that made the choice to wait, will feel that it was worth it.
 
rvbuilder2002 said:
Now that Bill has solved Vern?s engine warranty concern, I wanted to point out that Skyview has never been offered as an option for the RV-12.
It has always been stated that it would replace the D-180 and Garmin 49X when the Garmin product was phased out.

The very last D-180 RV-12 avionics kit was shipped to the customer mid July 2011. That means that the longest any customer has actually been waiting for an avionics kit is a little more than 4 months. Still more than anyone had hoped, but no where near the year that has been mentioned.

I can fully understand a customer making a decision to wait for an upgrade that is proposed for future release, but is it reasonable to then complain about the time it takes to become available. I don't think it is.

If Intel leaks info about a new generation computer chip that will be coming out in the future, it is a customers prerogative to hold of on making a new computer purchase, but I don't think they have much of a complaint against Intel if it takes a year for it to happen.

Same situation with the RV-12. I understand that some customers have had money tied up in an unfinished airplane kit... but the reality is, for most of them, that was their choice (they could have purchased a D-180 avionics kit up until mid July).

Here's hoping, that most of the people that made the choice to wait, will feel that it was worth it.
Click to expand...

We tried to order avionics in mid July. Before OSH. we were turned away saying that skyview would be soon and there were no more 495/6 to be sold with the then current kit. Most builders have been purchasing kits at a piecemeal rate... After completing the previous kit and when funds become available. Im just asking for better communication with builders on when to really expect this new release.

This is the only aircraft manufactured by vans on which most (Elsa) builders rely on vans to supply every part. In such a case as this, maybe there could be more open dialogue of the status instead of "the end of next month". In our case it would be nice to know for budgeting reasons... I'm sure others agree.
 
Hi Scott,

Nice to hear from you again.

I would like to point out that I did not rely on leaked information or rumor when I made the decision to wait for the Skyview avionics package. Yes it is true that Garmin had announced that the 49X units would soon be out of production and yes Van's had leaked the information that the replacement would be Skyview, late in 2010, but that is not what I acted on. I did call the Van's General Manager and ask him directly about the plan for the soon to be outdated avionics package and Scott R. confirmed that it would be Skyview based and that it would be available soon and that I would be pleased if I waited for it. Yes the conversation with Scott R. was in early December of last year and with that good news I did go ahead and purchase the Engine kit in December of 2010, so that we would have something to do while we waited for the new Skyview avionics kit to be released.

So I think your wait of only four months is just spun a little bit more than is reasonable, just my opinion though.

Then you did not comment on taking avionics orders from some and telling others that they could not send money yet, can you tell us how that works and is that considered fair to all of the RV-12 customers?

Best regards,
Vern


rvbuilder2002 said:
Now that Bill has solved Vern?s engine warranty concern, I wanted to point out that Skyview has never been offered as an option for the RV-12.
It has always been stated that it would replace the D-180 and Garmin 49X when the Garmin product was phased out.

The very last D-180 RV-12 avionics kit was shipped to the customer mid July 2011. That means that the longest any customer has actually been waiting for an avionics kit is a little more than 4 months. Still more than anyone had hoped, but no where near the year that has been mentioned.

I can fully understand a customer making a decision to wait for an upgrade that is proposed for future release, but is it reasonable to then complain about the time it takes to become available. I don't think it is.

If Intel leaks info about a new generation computer chip that will be coming out in the future, it is a customers prerogative to hold of on making a new computer purchase, but I don't think they have much of a complaint against Intel if it takes a year for it to happen.

Same situation with the RV-12. I understand that some customers have had money tied up in an unfinished airplane kit... but the reality is, for most of them, that was their choice (they could have purchased a D-180 avionics kit up until mid July).

Here's hoping, that most of the people that made the choice to wait, will feel that it was worth it.
Click to expand...
 
vernhendershott said:
Hi Scott,

Nice to hear from you again.

I would like to point out that I did not rely on leaked information or rumor when I made the decision to wait for the Skyview avionics package. Yes it is true that Garmin had announced that the 49X units would soon be out of production and yes Van's had leaked the information that the replacement would be Skyview, late in 2010, but that is not what I acted on.
Click to expand...

My Intel leaked info example was probably not a good one, but I think most everyone probably got the point. I am sure that Scott R. was in good faith trying to give you good service and help you. The reality is that a year ago, neither he nor anyone else had any idea at that time how long and hard a road it would be. My original point is still valid... anytime up to about 4 months ago, you could have ordered a D-180 avionics kit and received it.

vernhendershott said:
Then you did not comment on taking avionics orders from some and telling others that they could not send money yet, can you tell us how that works and is that considered fair to all of the RV-12 customers?
Click to expand...

I did not comment, because I can't comment about something I have no knowledge or responsibilities about. If you have concerns or other questions, you should call and talk with someone in the office that actually deals with day to day order business.

Even though it is not in any way connected to my job, I feel very confident in saying that any RV-12 builders that have been in wait mode for an avionics kit, will be treated fairly. There are many times in the past when an unforeseen delay occurred, where customers that were most directly effected were given priority in the order process. I expect that this situation will be dealt with in the same way.
 
When I offered to pay in advance to get a good position on order fulfillment, I was assured that persons held up waiting for skyview would have theirs shipped out first. Afterward I got to thinking, how are they going to tell who is in that category?
 
Skyview or Optional Garmin G3X for RV=12

Perhaps the delay in fielding the Skyview avionics package is an effort to make a 2 nd choice available.
The Garmin G3X would certainly be a sought after option if it were competitively priced
 
Just put a post on the Van's facebook page - some dittos to it might be a good thing if you would like. See the latest post on their Skyview topic, top of the page.
 
Skyview or Optional Garmin G3X for RV=12

I posted the question on the facebook page.
Yes, I do believe it is in the works.
 
Alan, the issue is not the Dynon Skyview system. It is proven in the field and they have plenty of inventory. And if Van's can't integrate a Dynon-to-Dynon conversion, doing a Garmin would be starting over from scratch! Plus they would have to add back in a transponder and deal with the autopilot servo stuff, deal with ADHRS changes - just too much. The Garmin is less capable and more expensive than the Skyview. Not a chance at all that they are working on a Garmin.
 
Skyview or Optional Garmin G3X for RV=12

I guess we will see what the future holds.
My crystal ball says it is a coming attraction
 
Really, G3X??

Hey AL,

Don't know if you have a crystal ball, or not, but I, for one, sure hope you're right!!! I played with the G3X at Oshkosh, and fell in love. But I plan to hold on for Van's release and just go with that, whatever that is. Given a choice, it will be a G3X.

Tom
 
G3X much smaller

Scaling off the photos, the G3X appears to have a screen diagonal of 7.3 inches. That would give you about half the screen area of the Skyview. I vote for Skyview.

I don't think Van's is going to switch horses after making the announcement.
 
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