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Amateur Built vs ELSA

vernhendershott said:
Now that there are very few DAR's with authority 47 required to approve the ELSA aircraft.....
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I'm not sure how many DARs actually have function code 47. But I can say if they don't have it, it's probably because they don't want it. When light-sport aircraft were first defined everyone who had function code 46 (experimental amateur-built) was offered FC 47 just for the asking. Some wanted it and some didn't.
 
todehnal said:
The 8000.38 document is a bit daunting for the run of the mill 12 builder. Van has provided some documentation in the RV-12 prints/manual that does support E-AB. There is a parts list that list each part, by name and number, and identifies it as "material", or "manufactured", as the case may be. This should go a long way in supporting an E-AB qualifying project. That, along with a good builders log, and DAR's like you, who are willing to support that effort, will go a long way in preserving the privilages of us home builders and our passion.
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Thanks Tom, Yes the form can be intimidating. But actually we don't use the 8000-38 real often. If a kit is on the list, we don't need it. Many kits that aren't on the list are very obviously over the 51%. But with a new kit like the RV-12, it can be very close. Those are the ones we have to be careful with.
The closest I have ever come to rejecting a kit is the "Texas Sport" (kit version of the Legend Cub). We actually had to work with the manufacturer and make a few changes in the kit to get it to qualify.
 
Carol Carpenter said:
I attend a Van's forum while at Sun N Fun. Very few Van's RV 12 builders at the show realized the huge advantage of certifying the RV 12 as ELSA over Amateur built. There is a 30-30% high resale value when a plane is certified as ELSA. After resale the new owner can take a short two day course and will be able to complete the yearly condition inspection. With amateur built he would need an A & P.
While you must build the aircraft exactly as the S-LSA model- after certification you can modify the aircraft. The operating limits on both are exactly the same.
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But can you legally modify an ELSA after certification? --Jerre
 
Hi Dog, I was told by the DAR that performed my inspection that modifications not expressly approved by Van's will create an insurance and personal liability issue. This situation will give the insurance co. grounds to deny claims as well as placing your assets and estate at risk. Just stating what I was told.
 
FAA says it is ok to modify E-LSA

But can you legally modify an ELSA after certification? --Jerre
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Yes you can and many builders have.
The FAA Aviation News dated Nov / Dec 2006 says, "Modification of the ?light-sport kit? aircraft can be at will after original certification."
Read it on page 32 (pdf page 34), right hand column:
http://www.faa.gov/news/aviation_news/2006/media/novdec2006.pdf
Also, read this thread:
http://www.vansairforce.com/community/showthread.php?t=57922&page=2
There will be a liability issue no matter how the aircraft is registered or modified. Insurance companies routinely insure E-AB aircraft. A modified E-LSA aircraft will not have more of an insurance risk than a similarly modified E-AB.
Joe Gores
 
16 hour Class ??

Mich48041 said:
Yes you can and many builders have.
The FAA Aviation News dated Nov / Dec 2006 says, "Modification of the ?light-sport kit? aircraft can be at will after original certification."
Read it on page 32 (pdf page 34), right hand column:
http://www.faa.gov/news/aviation_news/2006/media/novdec2006.pdf
Also, read this thread:
http://www.vansairforce.com/community/showthread.php?t=57922&page=2
There will be a liability issue no matter how the aircraft is registered or modified. Insurance companies routinely insure E-AB aircraft. A modified E-LSA aircraft will not have more of an insurance risk than a similarly modified E-AB.
Joe Gores
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Joe
I would like to know if there is any limitation to the Modifications
Can you change the type of?
1. Engine
2. Wing
3. Fuel tanks
4. Landing gear

If a Person builds a Kit and changes some element of the aircraft that is one thing.
A Person who buys an RV12 finished aircraft and wants to redesign it after only 16 hours of school is totally different thing.

The non-builder that took a 16 hour class I will never fly with.
My view
 
As I understand it ...

I think if you build E-LSA, even though you might add lights and IFR instrumentation, you can't fly IFR or at night.

On the other hand, I think if you build E-AB and include that equipment, your program letter will allow for both. On the day you don't want to visit the sawbones any longer, you just stop flying IFR & night, and that's pretty much all you have to do. (Just limit yourself to sport pilot operations in an aircraft that meets the prescribed requirements.)

The Repairman / Inspection privileges are different. I think it works so that in E-LSA, you can sell the airplane and the new owner can get a certificate. With E-AB, there will only be one certificate ever issued - the successor owner would have to hire a A&P for just the condition inspection (but not for maintenance).

The consensus seems to be that once the E-LSA airworthiness certificate is issued, you can change anything but that it has to conform to the S-LSA prototype at the time of inspection. I'm pretty sure the operating limitations will specify when to notify the FSDO relative to changes. Just my opinion - if you're thinking of changes that entail Engine, Wing, Fuel tanks and / or Landing Gear, when you run the numbers, you might see it more advantageous to just build it E-AB to begin with. As to the conceptual value difference of E-LSA vs. E-AB, it ought to be somewhere near the present value of about 5 condition inspections, this number being reduced by the value of additional utility (such as night, IFR, etc.). Seems like it would work out to be pretty close.

YMMV - me, I'm waiting for Katie B. to update on the Jab 2200 FWF kit and what plans there might be for a Jab 3300 FWF kit.
 
I asked a similar question in my 16 hour ELSA inspection course and was told that an ELSA(special airworthyness certificate, experimental operating light sport) cannot be taken out of compliance with its LSA requirements. I don't recall the regulation that was cited, but it seemed reasonable to me.
 
DanBaier said:
As I understand it ...

I think if you build E-LSA, even though you might add lights and IFR instrumentation, you can't fly IFR or at night.

On the other hand, I think if you build E-AB and include that equipment, your program letter will allow for both. On the day you don't want to visit the sawbones any longer, you just stop flying IFR & night, and that's pretty much all you have to do. (Just limit yourself to sport pilot operations in an aircraft that meets the prescribed requirements.)

The Repairman / Inspection privileges are different. I think it works so that in E-LSA, you can sell the airplane and the new owner can get a certificate. With E-AB, there will only be one certificate ever issued - the successor owner would have to hire a A&P for just the condition inspection (but not for maintenance).

The consensus seems to be that once the E-LSA airworthiness certificate is issued, you can change anything but that it has to conform to the S-LSA prototype at the time of inspection. I'm pretty sure the operating limitations will specify when to notify the FSDO relative to changes. Just my opinion - if you're thinking of changes that entail Engine, Wing, Fuel tanks and / or Landing Gear, when you run the numbers, you might see it more advantageous to just build it E-AB to begin with. As to the conceptual value difference of E-LSA vs. E-AB, it ought to be somewhere near the present value of about 5 condition inspections, this number being reduced by the value of additional utility (such as night, IFR, etc.). Seems like it would work out to be pretty close.

YMMV - me, I'm waiting for Katie B. to update on the Jab 2200 FWF kit and what plans there might be for a Jab 3300 FWF kit.
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The E-LSA CAN be night capable, just by adding the light kit. Night VFR isn't a problem. The same applies to IFR. You seem to be confused on the 'consensus'. The only thing that you are limited by when making changes is ensuring it doesn't leave the 'LSA' guidelines (too fast, stall too fast, increase gross weight, etc). Just like an E-AB, there is no requirement to tell the FSDO ANYTHING at any point. After inspection, the E-AB and E-LSA are nearly identical besides the annuals, and the weight/speed limitations.

However, you'd be a fool to exceed the weight/speed limits on the RV-12 anyway, since the airframe is designed with those numbers in mind.
 
Limit to modifications

I would like to know if there is any limitation to the Modifications
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Mel is more qualified to answer that question. In my opinion, there is no limit. However, no modification should be made to an E-LSA that would cause the aircraft to no longer meet the definition of LSA.
A Person who buys an RV12 finished aircraft and wants to redesign it after only 16 hours of school is totally different thing.
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I hear you. But anyone is allowed to work on an experimental plane, even the inexperienced amateur car mechanic who lives down the street. And an E-LSA IS an experimental aircraft. Some A&Ps are reluctant to inspect experimental aircraft because they do not know who has worked on it or what unsafe modifications were made.
Joe Gores
 
Sport Pilot limitation

I think if you build E-LSA, even though you might add lights and IFR instrumentation, you can't fly IFR or at night.
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That is a Sport Pilot limitation, not an aircraft limitation. An E-LSA can be flown at night or IFR if it is properly equipped (and not restricted by operating limitations) and the pilot is properly rated and current with a medical.
Joe Gores
 
Since I am an A&P the change to EAB was easy for me to make, not really proven, but it may be that resale value may be less on an EAB plane, depending on the deviation from the original.
 
E-AB

Phyrcooler said:
I have a theory (note the choice of words) that there MAY be some added value to many second or later purchasers (of E-LSA's) who like the added "security" of knowing that it was built exactly "per-plans" using supplied parts and that in theory - there should be no surprises. I also theorize that these same specifics MAY also lead to a slightly lessor insurance cost vs. an E-AB. Lastly - for the many that have opined here on the board about the potential liabilities of selling your E-AB - I also theorize that your exposure MAY be somewhat less with an E-LSA. Ultimately this all MAY result in an increased value of an E-LSA over an E-AB. Will it be 30%? I don't think so... but I could easily see 10% to 15%.
DJ
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Sorry I am late to the conversation.

Having built and sold over thirty aircraft (READ I make dreams come true) this is something I took interest in. I totally agree. Knowing what you are buying is important. These aircraft are going to take your family on memorable trips and outings. that is what they are for! let's keep the memories positive.
 
Which brings up another thought. If one were to buy an EAB that was easily changed to become an ELSA with minor work, is is possible to do that?
Another thought, since that ELSA can be drastically altered the day after ELSA inspection, the thought that it would be worth far more because it is an altered ELSA instead of an EAB of identical original build would not appear to be an invalid assumption. Comments anyone?
 
DonFromTX said:
Which brings up another thought. If one were to buy an EAB that was easily changed to become an ELSA with minor work, is is possible to do that?
Another thought, since that ELSA can be drastically altered the day after ELSA inspection, the thought that it would be worth far more because it is an altered ELSA instead of an EAB of identical original build would not appear to be an invalid assumption. Comments anyone?
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Hi Don,

I will leave question one to Mel as a DAR he should know, but my guess is no.

The major advantage of the ELSA is that any new owner can take the 16 hour course and to the annual so it would retain the additional value with any normal changes, big things like a different engine would have an effect on value but it would still be higher than a similar EAB aircraft, at least that is what the market is telling us so far.

Best regards,
Vern
 
Could be. I am only saying that some EAB may be so butchered up they may suffer in value, but somehow quality and final product still should make market value somewhat at least.
 
An amateur-built aircraft can never become an E-LSA. There are only two ways to attain E-LSA status;
21.191(i)(2), has been assembled from an approved E-LSA kit, or
21.191(i)(3), has been previously issued a special airworthiness certificate in the Light-Sport category under 21.190.

Keep in mind; if an amateur-built aircraft has been modified in a way that would remove it from LSA parameters, it may still be flown by a recreation pilot or above.
If an E-LSA aircraft has had the same type of modification, it can not be flown by anyone because it's airworthiness certificate in no longer valid!
 
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