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In Flight Canopy & Fire Extinguisher Questions

JerryG150

JerryG150

Well Known Member
After putting 17 hours on my Hobbs, while in flight I glanced over to the base of the canopy near the right seat and noticed an approximately 1/8" - 3/8" opening. For a moment I thought I misaligned the canopy or worse yet thought I might have left it unlocked. I didn't. It was fully locked and not misaligned. After landing the "opening" disappeared. I imagine I have generated the opening while flying. The low pressure above the canopy might make the canopy take off a bit like gull wings and then when I landed the opening disappeared. Am I the only one experiencing this? The aluminum alignment pins are still in the longeron area ... just raised a bit and visible while in flight. I am too close to see if the left side of the canopy lifts a bit too ... I imagine it does ... I did feel air coming in there.

Being in FL, I can tell you I don't mind the additional air conditioning ... once again is this "normal"?

While I have your attention, I purchased a small Halon fire extinguisher and I also ordered the -12 interior kit ... where would you suggest I mount the extinguisher since the "forward center console" has a storage pocket that I don't want to give up? Thanks.
 
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Regarding the fire extinguisher question, I don't want this to be a "thread steal" but.....

I personally would not discharge a halon extinguisher within the confines of a close cockpit in flight. You "may" not be able to breathe once you do.

I question the need for any extinguisher but I accept some have a stong desire to put one in. I think a simple water/foam might be more appropriate for a cockpit even though they are not recommended for an electrical fire. If anything, you could spay it on yourself until you could land.

Just a thought. Back to your regular programming.
 
f1rocket said:
I question the need for any extinguisher but I accept some have a stong desire to put one in.
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I always figured the most likely use of a small cockpit extinguisher was not so much for an electrical or fuel fire, but for a brake fire. Something to think about, anyway.

mcb
 
f1rocket said:
Regarding the fire extinguisher question, I don't want this to be a "thread steal" but.....

I personally would not discharge a halon extinguisher within the confines of a close cockpit in flight. You "may" not be able to breathe once you do.

I question the need for any extinguisher but I accept some have a stong desire to put one in. I think a simple water/foam might be more appropriate for a cockpit even though they are not recommended for an electrical fire. If anything, you could spay it on yourself until you could land.

Just a thought. Back to your regular programming.
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Some good info here, that appears to support the use of Halon.

http://www.h3raviation.com/news_cockpit_fire_protection.htm

http://www.h3raviation.com/news_Aviation_Consumer_Dec08.htm

L.Adamson
 
Jerry, FWIW I have those nice little exhaust vents along the bottom of my canopy frame, too. I believe I have seen at least one 12 with some of Home Depot's Finest Weatherstrip affixed to canopy frame square tubing. Like you, I appreciate the breeze.

Jim
#264 48 hours flying
 
Honestly, if I were flying an RV and had an in-flight fire that I could reach with a fire extinguisher, I'd be bailing the **** out. Your mileage may vary.
 
SteveinIndy said:
Honestly, if I were flying an RV and had an in-flight fire that I could reach with a fire extinguisher, I'd be bailing the **** out. Your mileage may vary.
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Hi Steve,

I share your plan to leave, but I have not yet figured out how you would get out of a RV-12 with the front hinged canopy, I know that you might break the canopy but I am not sure that you could break out enough of the canopy to get out of in time to jump. I would like to hear how many of us fly the RV-12 with a parachute, I think not very many.

Best regards,
Vern
 
Jerry, A professional fire fighter told me recently that although Halon is a good extinguisher, it will rob the oxygen from the area that it is discharged in. He said that the ABC ext. would be better for all around use and if you wind up breathing it, you won't die. The foam type would also be a good option. Another friend of mine experienced an in-flight fire at his feet in his RV4. He is a lucky man. He said that if he had had an extinguisher he would have used it. He got it on the ground and out of it just in time.
 
but I have not yet figured out how you would get out of a RV-12 with the front hinged canopy, I know that you might break the canopy but I am not sure that you could break out enough of the canopy to get out of in time to jump.
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Another reason I am picky about what I fly in. Note to self....
 
A professional fire fighter told me recently that although Halon is a good extinguisher, it will rob the oxygen from the area that it is discharged in
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It's a displacement asphyxiant just like CO2. BTW, I am speaking as a former volunteer firefighter, a former deputy coroner as well as a respiratory therapist.

He said that the ABC ext. would be better for all around use and if you wind up breathing it, you won't die.
Click to expand...

Except when you hit the ground or end spiraling out of control because you can't see. Also it is not toxic per se, but it does do some rather unpleasant things to the lungs in terms of inducing bronchospasm, coughing, etc.

The foam type would also be a good option.
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....or if you had a way to completely isolate the electric system, a water one might be an option.
 
Extinguisher

So, are you saying that the foam type is the best of a bad bunch?


SteveinIndy said:
It's a displacement asphyxiant just like CO2. BTW, I am speaking as a former volunteer firefighter, a former deputy coroner as well as a respiratory therapist.



Except when you hit the ground or end spiraling out of control because you can't see. Also it is not toxic per se, but it does do some rather unpleasant things to the lungs in terms of inducing bronchospasm, coughing, etc.


....or if you had a way to completely isolate the electric system, a water one might be an option.
Click to expand...
 
So, are you saying that the foam type is the best of a bad bunch?
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Pretty much. It's not that the other ones are bad. It's just that unless you have a positive pressure oxygen mask (think what airline pilots have for depressurization events) I would not recommend discharging a CO2 or Halon extinguisher in a closed cabin. It's a touch predicament. There's a reason why I fully plan on wearing a chute whenever I fly alone and why I am putting such an emphasis on fire suppression and prevention in the aircraft I am designing. One of the aspects of the design that is taking longer to figure out than anything else is the fire suppression and isolation systems.
 
So, to revive this thread:

I'd feel more comfortable with some sort of a small fire extinguisher on board. But I don't like the idea of a halon unit sucking all the oxygen out of the cockpit, in the event I needed to discharge it.

I've seen a few of you that installed extinguishers in your RV-12's. What did you use? And has anyone found a neat way to mount one- other than on the front tunnel?
 
I seriously question the need and use of any type of fire extinguisher for in-flight use. Where are you gonna squirt it? If you have an engine compartment fuel or oil fire? If you have an electrical fire behind the panel? If you have a fire in the tunnel?

I don't think you will either have effective access to the fire location or gain any beneficial result whatsoever. Time much better spent getting that baby on the ground ASAP.

An extinguisher's main use, IMHO, would be to extinguish a fairly minor fire - say in the engine or brakes - after landing - especially when there are no fire responders available. In which case, it could be mounted behind the pilot somewhere in the cargo area.

Bob Bogash
N737G
 
Visibility is a consideration

I carry Halon for use on the ground.

After research on CO2, Halon, pressurized water, and ABC (monoammonium phosphate powder) effects on equipment, materials, and people, and their varying abilities to extinguish a fire, the side effect of creating a cloud inside the cockpit helped me decide against all of them in flight.

My plan is aviate, navigate, communicate... and only fight fires from outside the aircraft.

To answer the original question, my extinguisher is mounted on the back of the passenger seat.
 
halon

Please go back and read the url's in post number 4. Halon does not extinguish by oxygen displacement as does co2. It works by interrupting the chemistry of combustion. Different mechanism altogether. I have experienced a computer room test dump of halon and although there are some physical effects, they are not debilitating. And there is NO CLEANUP reqired afterward and no corrosive powder on your aluminum. Halon is the way to go.
 
Since I share the cockpit with 20 Gal of fuel I'll continue to carry my halon extinguisher in the cockpit. At least it's an option.
 
Cockpit mounted (Halon) extinguisher serves two purposes IMO.

One, (attempt) to extinguish flames around my feet and legs so I can continue emergency descent to land. If it buys me 1 minute, I can hold my breath that long and that gets me that much closer to the ground, where I need my legs to not be on fire when attempting to land off field.

Two, extinguish fire in or around the plane when I'm on the ground and not at my hangar.
 
I've mentioned my thoughts before. Forgive me for repeating.

We carry aqueous foam extinguishers on our website, not because there's any money in it, there's not, but because IMHO they make more sense than the other options.

They are rated ABC, including for electrical, but with 12VDC, I'm not too concerned about getting shocked, or even shorting anything. After all, you've probably already turned off the electrical if there's a cockpit fire!

And if it's a fire coming through the firewall by your legs, you can spray the aqueous foam on your legs... and it stays put! This could buy you enough time to get on the ground w/o serious injuries. Maybe. If the fire is bigger than that, a parachute might be the next best option!

Aqueous foam has only one drawback that I know of... they can freeze. They work again when thawed, but when frozen must be warmed in the fire before they can be used to put out the fire. ;)

http://www.flyboyaccessories.com/store/index.php?main_page=index&cPath=76

Or you can get them at Home Depot or other decent hardware stores!
 
vfrazier said:
I've mentioned my thoughts before. Forgive me for repeating.

We carry aqueous foam extinguishers on our website, not because there's any money in it, there's not, but because IMHO they make more sense than the other options.

They are rated ABC, including for electrical, but with 12VDC, I'm not too concerned about getting shocked, or even shorting anything. After all, you've probably already turned off the electrical if there's a cockpit fire!

And if it's a fire coming through the firewall by your legs, you can spray the aqueous foam on your legs... and it stays put! This could buy you enough time to get on the ground w/o serious injuries. Maybe. If the fire is bigger than that, a parachute might be the next best option!

Aqueous foam has only one drawback that I know of... they can freeze. They work again when thawed, but when frozen must be warmed in the fire before they can be used to put out the fire. ;)

http://www.flyboyaccessories.com/store/index.php?main_page=index&cPath=76

Or you can get them at Home Depot or other decent hardware stores!
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Well, it does specify "RV" on the product :rolleyes:
ea8a.jpg
 
Darwin Barrie (on the forums here) is installing a fire suppression system in his new RV-7. I've seen the systems offered for aircraft before, but never given them much thought. Seems like a great idea though, if you could have something built-in!

I was researching a little bit on different extinguishers, and this is some good reading. They are called NFPA, but not our NFPA govering agency here in the states. This outfit is recommending Halon for aircraft. See the quote in the lower right corner of this link:
http://www.nfpa.it/reference_r_fire.htm
 
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Thanks guys. I honestly never thought about the unwanted result of discharging halon in tight quarters. I've always carried one in light planes, but fortunately never had to use it. Think I'll switch to water.

I will watch for that gap; I'll bet it's the effect of lift over that pretty curved canopy! My 1st flight is very soon (in the '12 that is).

Can't imagine egress in flight from an RV-12. My mind set is to keep flying it.....

JRo
 
Has anybody actually heard of an extinguisher of any type being used in an RV in flight? If so, what happened?
 
Fires in-flight are about the worst thing that can happen to you, short of the wing falling off. Even that event might allow a more genteel acquisition of wings of a different sort. A lot of the talk here is somewhat simplistic - spraying something or other on the firewall, or your legs, etc.

I have done very extensive studies of in-flight fires in large aircraft. Invariably they have a very bad outcome. Even with sophisticated fire detection and extinguishing systems. Even with crew members manning extensive fire extinguishing gear to fight the fire. Fires often cannot be controlled, much less extinguished, with on-board equipment.

In the recently released report on the UPS 747 accident, the pilot lived exactly 3.5 minutes after the firebell went off; the co-pilot ultimately lost control of the aircraft and it dove into the ground - but not before the flight control cables had burned through.

Just how bad can an in-flight fire be? I can describe two accidents where three people jumped out of the airplane without parachutes, rather than endure the flames. Think of the World Trade Center, for that matter, and all the people who chose to jump rather than face the smoke and flames....

The only realistic chance for surviving such an event is to get the airplane on the ground as soon as possible. And I mean FAST!!! Every minute and every second counts.

Bob Bogash
N737G
 
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