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Door Latch S.B. replacement

That is an elegant solution.
Can you share with us how the mechanical activation of the third latch works?
Thank you.
 
Sean-----WOW:D

This is the best solution I have seen, bar none.

You hit all the mechanical points I was looking for in my thread about design factors.

Plus, your setup draws the door inward at the same time, something I had not even thought of.

How about details of the mechanism in the center.

Do you have any plans to market this??

Now, if the factory would say it is an acceptable alternative to their fix.

Thanks for sharing.

The VAF group mind at its best:D
 
Thanks Mike,

I just finished this and I am still thinking out the idea of marketing them. Retro fitting would be available but would only work if the existing handle could move 180 degrees. This is possible by changing the roll pin and leaving the rack gears longer before cutting. After market handles that don't use the rack gears could be retro fitted as well only if it could move 180. I guess I could make it work with 90 degrees (or 110 whatever the stock handles are) but the mechanism wouldn't pull the door in before the pins engage. You wouldn't want the middle mechanism to start without the pins moving beyond the door because you would lose the 1 inch travel on the stock pins. I believe anyone who had the stock configuration would want extended rack gears for 180 degrees of travel. Thanks again for the kind words, this took me and my father a lot of brain cells that we were already short on.
 
RV-10 Door SB Alternative

I am ready to retro fit my doors with your system. It would be a lot easier if you go ahead and make and sell parts but either way yours is the solution.
 
Great Design Sean

Sean has been working on quite a few solutions and mocked up a bunch.
This one is definitely a winner and solves all the problems we have been talking about.

Way to go Sean.

Doug, you should have an VAF annual awards night where VAF members vote on:
-Best Paint
-Best Innovative Solution
-Best Panel
ect....
 
For all of you that are close to installing the doors and want my system, don't cut your rack gears from Vans where they tell you. Cut them in half, right down the middle or wait for the instructions with my kit. This way I can make you 180 degrees of travel on your handle. Retrofit kits will have the option of buying 90 degree kits for already cut racks or 180 degree kits that include new racks for the existing handles. The 180 degree kits will cost a little extra for the material. For those of you who want retrofit kits you will have to decide on whether you want the door to be pulled in before pin penetration and 1-1/4 of pin travel past the door or 90 degree kits that hold the door closed and tight in the middle preventing bulging and the same pin extension. This goes for after market handles too. You can add my mechanism to your door for a safety and to keep the middle of the door tight.
 
Is it possible to adjust the third 'pin' (disc) so that it may be engaged from a more vertical starting position? I have the flush billet door handles (iflyrv10.com) and they don't allow that much rotation, only 90 degrees. It would seem that you don't need a complete half-disc to achieve the latch effect.
 
Aftermarket handles

With this solution, it is hard to impossible to configure the mechanism that only works 90 degrees that still pulls the door in BEFORE the pins extend beyond the door. It may just barely start but I figure builders who already have a working door that closes, really only needs the mechanism that holds the door in the middle and acts as a safety. It can also pull BUT the pins will already be moving out of the door. If you want to time it so the mechanism pulls first with a 90 degree travel than you lose pin extension. It will be up to the installer if they want to change the timing of the mechanism. My directions will explain changing the timing for whatever the builder wants.
 
I knew it wouldn't take long for someone to come up with a esthetic and foolproof solution, I have a ways to go before I'm at that point but put me down for one.:)


Steve Stella
#40654 Wings
N521RV reserved
 
suspense

Strasnuts,

The suspense is killing us.
Tell us when you will make the announcement and reveal the workings of the activation mechanism.
Let us know, we won't tell anybody.
 
Hi Sean,

Very Elegant! ;)

I'd like to understand the internal workings of it too. :confused:

Now you are faced with a couple of options
1) Make and sell kits (lots of work, hopfully higher income return)
2) Sell your idea to vans for them to make it standard and supply it (pocket $1K to $2K quickly)
3) Just draft rough plans and let the community build it themselves.

Hoping to get more info soon.

Regards
Rudi
 
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door latch production

I'm excited from all the interest and I am getting the ball rolling for production. I outfitted my second door and it works great.
 
I'm intending to use the flush actuators, so I'm wondering if the geometry of the flush actuator can be adjusted to allow this to work. Then again, I am still looking at some ideas to center-latch internal to the door - which will probably exclude the pull-in feature of this system (rats!) but may look cleaner. I'm a good ways away from the doors so I have some time to explore options.
 
Nice

Very nicely done. I am a while out, but I will definitely want this. If you need a number of these ordered for a production run, I will go ahead and order. That should help with getting the cost down.
 
Count me in!

Sean,

I am also a long ways from the doors, but I will order a kit from you as soon as they are available. It's a great solution to this problem.
 
Me too

My finish kit should arrive this week or next, so I'm not too far off from needing something. Put me down for a set, depending on the price. I'd also like to see some drawings or something that shows in more detail how it works. Maybe a more detailed video using a cutaway mockup off the airplane?
 
Vans, are you listening????

Am I the only one who has noticed the lack of comment on this truly wonderful design by the factory???

Scott McDaniels (rvbuilder2002) was pretty active in the thread discussing the factory SB, but no input on this thread.

Quite frankly, IMHO, this design totally outshines the factory fix, and the factory should jump on this like a frog on a June bug-----or whatever the phrase is.
 
Factory

First let me say I am building my third RV and I believe Vans is the best in the business. The SB they have issued on the latch however is terrible. They have created a liability problem for every owner that does not put this piece of junk latch on what is the best 4 place aircraft for the money on the market. I hope this is just a temporary solution and Vans produces a better latch for the RV10 and then issues another SB replacing this one.

There is certainly some better engineering to be done on this issue.

Pat Stewart
 
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Is the factory watching?

Mike S said:
Am I the only one who has noticed the lack of comment on this truly wonderful design by the factory???
Click to expand...

I had the same thought. Even without seeing the inner-workings of the mechanism, it's clear this is a significant improvement. I'm sure someone from Vans will take notice.
 
I will weight in with my personal comments with the understanding that it is not an official response from Van's Aircraft. This is my opinion only.
If you want an official comment from Van's, I would suggest you call the office and talk to Gus or Scott.

I watched Sean's video and I think he came up with a great idea.

As good as it is, from my perspective, it has a couple of problems in the context of what the design goal of the safety latch was.

1. It makes the whole door latch system even more complex to install and properly adjust. Builders have already shown that they are unable to follow the instructions and correctly install the latch system we have now, I.E. failing to properly adjust the rack system so that the pins penetrate solid aircraft structure instead of just latching in the plastic guide blocks.
With an even more complex system, it seems even more likely that that some builders would fail to get the system set up properly.

2. RV-10 pilots have demonstrated that even with a kit supplied door safety latched indicator system, they will still attempt flight with a door not properly latched.
A design goal of the safety latch was to provide a safety net for the most inattentive pilot to hopefully keep a door attached even if a takeoff is attempted with no attempt to latch the door having been taken.
Sean's design definitely does not address this.

To reiterate what has been said already...
every RV-10 (in the USA anyway) is certificated in the experimental amateur built category. This by default makes the person who built/assembled that airplane, the manufacturer. The manufacturer can choose whether they install the safety latch system or not. If you think there is a better design that meets the design intent of the safety latch, then you are fully within your rights to install that instead. The only way I see that you should have a problem with an insurance claim is if there is evidence that the door was not properly latched and it could be consider a possibility that the Van's supplied passive (not human input dependent) safety latch might have prevented the outcome that caused the filling of the claim (though I do not now nor have I ever worked in the insurance industry so take that for what it is worth).
 
Scott, totally understand not an "official" Vans response.

I agree with both of your points, additional complication to install/adjust, and passive device----at least from the door closing point.

Good points, thanks for the input.

Points of the system I find a big plus, totally integrated action with the existing door latch, both opening and closing.

Draws the door inward as it is activated, thus the rear pin will enter the frame.

All good stuff going on here, many minds working toward a common goal.
 
Some more thoughts

With my new latch system on my airplane, it is impossible for me to close my door without the pins engaging. I can't imagine a pilot that can see 1-2 inches of daylight all around the door seal and takeoff that way?? If you try to close my door half-as@ed, the cam will push the door back out. No way can it be partially closed. I personally believe it is a safer system than the S.B.. I can't imagine the door holding on if the pilot just relied on the S.B. to keep the door closed. With the cam mechanism you would not takeoff forgetting to turn the handle. It would be too obvious. I can see a pilot closing the door with the S.B. and thinking it is closed enough and taking off forgetting to turn the handle but with mine as soon as you started the engine the door would open even more. Now as far as installing my latch. I can see a pilot who bought the plane from someone else might have a hard time installing my system. An A&P? No problem. A builder who is coming up to the door install? Should be simple. They got that far. It is easy to time the mechanism and at least give 1-1/4" of pin penetration with the 180 degree system.
When I looked at Vans' S.B. when it came in the mail, I thought it looked as hard to install as the cam mechanism. If you can put on the S.B. I believe you can put in my latch. With all of that being said, all I want is a better system for the door latch. If Van's would have come up with this design, I would be content and would love to implement it. I ran so many designs through my head and on my plane doors, I can't imagine a simpler way to install and use a safety mechanism. After seeing what a great airplane the RV-10 is and all of the engineering that was put into the design and making it possible for builders to manufacturer this, I was disappointed with the S.B. latch.
 
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Strasnuts said:
With my new latch system on my airplane, it is IMPOSSIBLE for me to close my door without the pins engaging. Unless you can imagine a pilot that can see 1-2 inches of daylight all around the door seal and takeoff that way??
Click to expand...

Seems like it would be even more idiot-proof if the geometry of the gas struts was changed so they're always exerting a bit of force to open the doors... then the door will either be fully latched or fully open (and windy!).

mcb
 
mburch said:
Seems like it would be even more idiot-proof if the geometry of the gas struts was changed so they're always exerting a bit of force to open the doors... then the door will either be fully latched or fully open (and windy!).
Click to expand...

If you install the C-1016 HD 600N HEAVY DOOR STRUT from Vans you will get that desired effect, unless you've put on significant weight on the door from interior finishing.

I've seen this on Geoff Combs' RV-10. The door pops open almost too hard with the heavy duty strut. At the moment, Geoff's door is stock. I don't know if Geoff has done any experiments to see how much weight it will take to make the door rise more slowly.

I would be interested in hearing comments from Deems or other folks that have installed the heavy duty strut.

bob
 
Had to go to the heavy duty strut

After the interior went in, the original struts would not keep the doors open - went with the heavy strut on one door to try it -- it does open the door vigorously after the initial push and I try to hold it to keep it from banging --- I will put a strap on it so I can let it up gently.
 
heavy duty strut

After insulation and leather on the doors the standared strut could not hold the doors up. Order heavy duty strut from Van. work beautifully since

Son Hoang -KWHP
RV10 N172KT
 
rleffler said:
I would be interested in hearing comments from Deems or other folks that have installed the heavy duty strut.

bob
Click to expand...

I've still got the stock struts, I've also got interior upholstery on the doors.
DSC06299.JPG


The stock struts will hold the open, but occasionally they require some assist on the way up.

Deems
 
You know, I never noticed that this thread died, with my question unanswered, and if these have gone into production, I must have missed the announcement. Well, it was a busy year, graduating and all. So, will they work with the flush exterior handles? And, are they being produced or are the plans available?
 
I am just curious what door latches were on the RV-10 that crashed in Ohio. Screw the door fire hurts.
 
Latch

Still making them....I'm in Salt Lake so you are not too far away. Maybe you can try my doors sometime and see what you think. A lot of them are flying around.
 
Flush handles?

Thanks for the post Patrick. I just read this thread and researched things last night. It took me a bit to figure out that Sean did begin producing these. To that end, I am ready to place an order. But, the question about flush handles remains unanswered. Sean...can you speak to this? I also have questions regarding the two pin/block configurations you sell. Can you describe the details and reason to opt for one versus the other? Thanks
 
dhmoose said:
Thanks for the post Patrick. I just read this thread and researched things last night. It took me a bit to figure out that Sean did begin producing these. To that end, I am ready to place an order. But, the question about flush handles remains unanswered. Sean...can you speak to this? I also have questions regarding the two pin/block configurations you sell. Can you describe the details and reason to opt for one versus the other? Thanks
Click to expand...

Sean supports flush handles. However, you are only going to get 90 degrees of travel as oppose to 180 degrees of travel.

I started to install flush handles and decided to remove them. Part of the issue was due to my craftsmanship and part due to design. I like having 180 degrees of travel. There is no question that the door is closed properly.

I have them at the hangar if somebody wants to make me a good offer for them. They are the iflyrv10 handles.

bob
 
Thanks for the info, guys. I already have the flush handles myself and have a handle (excuse the pun) on how they operate from the instructions, though I will want to examine the actual mechanisms which are sitting in my hangar. I think I understand, from the video, that Sean's mechanism actually increases the travel of the pushrods so that they are moving while the cam is engaging the bottom of the door but that movement is within the door for the first 90 degrees.

My thought is that, if the flush handles don't actually have internal stops preventing them from greater than 90 degree rotation, then a slight modification of the rotator cup should allow you to get full travel on Sean's setup. If they only go 90 degrees due to internal stops, then it would take a bigger modification to the rotator cup plus the linkage to allow for both increased throw and more stress. I'll know more after I look at the flush mechanisms today, and I'll post back.
 
Latch rotation

There is no limitation on my kits to rotate from 90 to 180 degrees. The cam only needs about 30 degrees to fully engage so you can take that off the 180 and still get over 1-1/2 travel on the pins after coming out of the door. The 180 kits come with door blocks that hold the pin from falling inside the door structure when fully retracted. The builder can decide how much pin extension they want. Vans' instructions tell the builder to cut down the gear racks and (for no reason) limit the travel. I usually see stock (VANS) installations from 90 to 120 degrees. A lot of installers bought the 90 because they don't want to take out painted screws or interiors and still get cam engagement before pin extension.

The ultimate solution is the 180 degree kit and the angled SS pins and Delrin guides. Vans had the good idea of having the angle on the pins to pull the door down and in against the seal. This allows for the misalignment before the seal gets squeezed. I sell bullet pins but I don't like metal on metal even though it is stainless steel and aluminum guides. The angled pins don't work with the aluminum guides, only the Delrin guides.

I still sell bullet pins and aluminum guides for those with very little pin travel or think the aluminum is a lot stronger.

Also, my pins are hollow from one end allowing you to glue in the magnets. The tips are solid and smooth so they don't grab or catch anything. They come with a long set screw that you locktite in place.

I noticed on the Hendricks latch website someone installed my mechanism with the flush handle. I also know of other builders who installed them with the iflyRV10 handles.

feel free to email me or call with any questions 801-580-3737
 
Well, I spent a fun day thinking about the latching mechanisms. I dissected the flush latches I have and they are, indeed, 90 degrees with a free return in either direction to the flush position. Beautiful design and machining, by the way. I discussed the design with a machinist friend; there is no way to modify the mechanism to go to 180 degrees and doing a new mechanism is prohibitive, as well as making the workings more fragile. We also discussed ways and means to extend the throw of the mechanism but I am not really happy with such solutions.

We also went and looked at the mechanism on another friend's Lancair propjet. Now, that's the way to latch a gull wing door ... well, I can dream, can't I? But that would also be way to expensive and difficult to adapt to an RV-10. If I were a machinist in my own right, I'd be tempted...

One thing we found readily apparent was that the magnetic sensors were a bad idea - too easy to get a false positive. I'm going with automotive-type microswitches instead and I'll bet that either the VP-200 or G900X will be able to handle the annunciation in such a way that I won't get airborne with a door ajar. But what if the door is closed on the switches but the handle isn't in the latched position? Another switch inside the door is my plan.

At this point I'm still planning to go with the flush exterior handle and the angled pins/delrin guides. I'm still undecided about the rest but I've got lots of time before I get to the doors to think about it. I really don't want anything external to the door and know that other measures will help prevent an unlatched condition (after all -there have been relatively few RV-10 door incidents). On the other hand, even one incident is too many, especially if it is your RV-10, and I am as prone - if not more so - to miss things in my checklists as anyone else.

Thanks for the replies and may I say how envious I am of those of you who can machine your own parts. That's some beautiful stuff out there without which I'd be stuck with the stock methods in the kit which are, no offense to the designers, utilitarian but sometimes homely.
 
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