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Consolidated Lessons Learned With Plans?

grayforge

grayforge

Well Known Member
Hi guys and gals,

I've been reading build logs, and many of them have great information on little things the plans don't mention or alternative ways to do things the plans do mention. Like "Before doing X, it's easier if you rivet Y 1st". Or "Joe's Tank Switching valve is way better than stock."

Problem is, picking up a few tidbits from each build log can be time consuming and one can easily miss someone's great tips.

Has anyone compiled a nice comprehensive list of tips & tricks to go along with the plans for an RV-7/7A?

Oh... and I have seen the builder tips section of this site, it'd just be nice to see RV-7 specific bits sequentially ordered alongside plans. :)

Thanks!
Russ
 
I found looking for information to be part of the education/recreation of my build. If there was a cookie cutter "do this before that" list I think it would stifle customization or personalizing your aircraft.

look at the number of RV-12 builders who are told exactly how and what to do next, but would like a little more latitude.
 
I kind of agree with both of you.

Looking through the build logs of various builders helps you on the journey and is an educational experience.

On the other hand, I often wonder if certain mods on single builder sites are good ideas or not.

I am also in favour of a centralised list on vansairforce with common knowledge and eventually the links to the individual builder sites. It would make the search and confidence in some mods easier.

My 2 cents...
 
grayforge said:
"Paraphrasing" --- list of alternative ways to do things
Click to expand...

There is a fundamental problem with creating a list of this sort.
Not all alternative ways are good.
There will be proponents of every way.
An argument over the list contents will ensue.

Since Van is the creator of the plans, he is the last word on them and the supporting documentation from the factory.

All other ways must be evaluated by the builder by using whatever resources can be brought to bear by that builder.

In my view, as said by hydroguy, its part of the learning process. Take the time.
 
rzbill said:
Not all alternative ways are good.
There will be proponents of every way.
Click to expand...

That is exactly the point and the reason why I would be in favour of a moderated and centralized list by experienced builders who's bird is already flying.

Not all builders are 2nd offenders, not all of us have ATPL or engineering backgrounds. For a real unexperienced newbie builder, it is often difficult to judge - even using common sense - if a technique or especially modification or add-on is good.
To be clear, I count myself in the last category.

I do agree on the Vans plans being the mother of all... but look at the checkoway method for the tanks. Out of experience I can say it's much more accurate then the Vans described method. Fortunatly there were many builders that described this so it gave me a sense of comfort that it is a commonly used technique that works well. On the other hand, you may miss some good stuff just because it's only described in one location or because you don't really can take it as a reference as it comes from a plane-in-construction.
 
While this sounds on the surface like a great idea, the problem is that there are many ways to do a certain thing right - and many ways to do a thing wrong (or, if not wrong, not that well). We can't even get a forum full of experts to agree on how a torque wrench works - what makes you think that a moderated list of "best practices" would work?

Every builder has different goals - for instance, some want the fastest, lightest RV possible. Others want a traveling, IFR machine. These two goals will result in different "best" ideas. Now multiply those choices by hundreds, and you'll see that there are no easy answers.

Like others have said - you need to do your own filtering based on your needs - develop an idea of who you can trust (or should I say "who you like to follow"), and then head off in that direction if it works for you.

Paul
 
Maybe a slight tweak on this thread, I know that I would like to have seen (and would still like to see) a category labeled something like "modifications to plans" wherein folks could post their, well, modifications. There are some great mods out there for speed, lightness, convenience, etc. that I might have used had I known about them. Of course, caveat emptor should anyone choose to utilize those mods.

Greg
 
JurgenRoeland said:
That is exactly the point and the reason why I would be in favour of a moderated and centralized list by experienced builders who's bird is already flying.

Not all builders are 2nd offenders, not all of us have ATPL or engineering backgrounds. For a real unexperienced newbie builder, it is often difficult to judge - even using common sense - if a technique or especially modification or add-on is good.
To be clear, I count myself in the last category.
Click to expand...

I agree with you. In my limited experience working with aluminum, I read as much as I can before I attempt something. I have been involved building a Kitfox and rebuilding wood wings, and built everything from furniture, houses to entire communities and resorts. Most of that doesn't translate to aluminum.

I made a comment on the plans and manual for the 9. They are good, but there are many things left out that would make it so much easier and save large amounts of time if they were included.

An example - on the rudder construction. The manual and details on DWG 7 show how to cut the stiffners. No where does it say that one side they will be reversed with the strength leg up and down on the other. They show how to cut them to the notch - why not a simple note that tells you this? It would save time looking at other builders web sites and their photos to see how it is done. Yes, if you try it, it is easy to see, but by that time, you need to order new stiffners from Vans.

Another way to help and make sure things are fabricated from the correct material is to make sure the size is marked on the scrap aluminum sent with the kit. Again, a micrometer will tell you, but if it is marked, you know already.

I am # 92094, just received the end of Jan. Since my plans were drawn in 1999 and last updated in 2000, maybe it is time Vans updated and improved them with some tips and more clarification. I don't see that happening. If we had a thread that tips - as easy as a simple note about the rudder stiffners could be posted - and vetted by forum members, I thing that would be great. I know the tips thread already exists, but it is pretty broad and not that easy to find specific information.

Just my thoughts. I know as a new builder, I would like to be able to find model specific tips that will save me time and expense. Im building because I have always wanted to and want a new plane, but I do not like wasting time trying to figure out things that should be explained in the plans and manual.

rockwood
 
rockwoodrv9 said:
Just my thoughts. I know as a new builder, I would like to be able to find model specific tips that will save me time and expense. Im building because I have always wanted to and want a new plane, but I do not like wasting time trying to figure out things that should be explained in the plans and manual.

rockwood
Click to expand...

You're going to be "wasting" a LOT of time figuring out things once you get past the airframe riveting! :D

It's just part of the education process. I have two aircraft build logs online and it always scares me when someone adopts something I've done and when I ask them why....they say "Well, you did it". :eek:

The way we develop "building sense" is by doing our homework so we understand the whys of how things go together. Having an "official" tips page could be disastrous to contributor and adopter.

Enjoy your build, it is a challenging and immensely satisfying journey! You will learn more about aircraft construction (and yourself) than you can imagine at this point. :)
 
Known Got'cha's

I was thinking it would be useful to have a list of known got'cha's. For example, I've read many posts from new builders who all messed the drilling/edge distance on the same part of the HS. I posted this a few months ago and got pretty much the same response as you got in this thread.
 
SlowJoe said:
I was thinking it would be useful to have a list of known got'cha's. For example, I've read many posts from new builders who all messed the drilling/edge distance on the same part of the HS. I posted this a few months ago and got pretty much the same response as you got in this thread.
Click to expand...

Joe, please don't think we are discounting your suggestion. When most of us were beginning our project, or just thinking about it, your idea seemed like something that would obviously be useful. But after you have completed your airframe you will come to appreciate the huge number of variables in projects, mission profiles, and most importantly, personalities that makes a list of "tips" so difficult to implement and administer.

You will be fine with the community we have in its present form. The evolution of our RV community since 1997 when I started my RV-6 is staggering in its range of resources. Everything you need to successfully complete your project is in your grasp through this forum and other builders you will come to know.

Enjoy!
 
Searching for info that should be on the plans is not education

Sam Buchanan said:
You're going to be "wasting" a LOT of time figuring out things once you get past the airframe riveting! :D

Enjoy your build, it is a challenging and immensely satisfying journey! You will learn more about aircraft construction (and yourself) than you can imagine at this point. :)
Click to expand...

I understand the learning part - and enjoy that. I am the kind of person that reads manuals for fun rather than fiction or novels. I have spent the past 35 years first drawing plans, then learning ACAD, and reading plans, and having plans and engineering drawings produced for me to critique. My current project has over 290 pages of plans and 3000 pages of specifications.
I don't mind "searching" for information, but not for things that should be included. I have probably read every one on the forums web logs - all the different planes. I did 10 years of research before I decided on the 9. I helped build a Kitfox and a Galsair. I have built and drawn plans for several sailboats and canoes. How is it educational to not include information about the stiffners being opposite flange out? In my opinion, that is not the type of education I feel I should be learning about. Maybe why the stiffners are the size they are - why they are in the locations they are, but not waste time noticing that the notch that I am supposed to trim to will not work if the stiffners are the same on each side, rechecking the plans, manual, and finally resorting to looking for photos of other builders. My first thought was I was sent the wrong stiffners. When you are building two sides, and you only show detail for one side, normally a person would think the other side is the same. If it isn?t, why not put a simple note? How does searching the internet for that bit of information make the plane better or me smarter?
I tried to second guess on the HS ribs and when the holes didn?t line up for the angled ribs, I took the entire thing apart, tried them the other way, then had to take it apart again to put it back the way it was. My problem was I hadn?t taken the plastic off and that made the difference. I didn?t want to go through fabrication - assembly ? take apart- assemble again, and order new stiffners.

I am not retired and I have to use my time wisely. Searching for information that should have been included on the plans is wasting time ? not education. Im sure most people find the plans very complete. I don?t. I am only a few days into the project and I have found many areas that would make the build so much easier and more enjoyable ? at least for me. Without the forum and people here answering questions, I think the completion rate would be much lower than it is. Of the 92093 empannage kits sold for the 9, how many are complete? Why not more?
 
A nicely organized collection of tips is obviously better than random tips spread across hundreds of web pages. I'm not saying that those hundreds of pages aren't useful, they are great reading! But as a way to find concise info on your build... not very efficient.

Maybe split the Knowledge Base into a few sub categories:

Plans Clarifications
Helpful information where the plans may be less than obvious. Like the mention of stiffeners above.

Assembly Tricks
These would include tips on easier ways to do things than the plans describe, but which result in the same end result. The Checkoway tank assembly technique is an example of this. Or a unique way to use a tool for a task that is non obvious.

Changes and Upgrades
These would contain changes to the plans. From swapping out the fuel valve to a Sam James Cowl. Add a big disclaimer that diverging from Vans' plans is at the builder's risk.

It'd take some effort to build and maintain, but sure would be helpful to a lot of people. Thoughts?
 
rockwoodrv9 said:
Of the 92093 empannage kits sold for the 9, how many are complete? Why not more?
Click to expand...

If you subtract 90000 from that number, because that specifies the type, you are already down to ~2100 sold kits. And according to Van's website 720 of them are already flying (i.e. not just the empennage is finished). Not too bad, I think.
 
Totally with you grayforge...

another example I have lately.
I have been seeing that some people are using the support bracket for the fixed fuel pickub tube also to support horizontally the red nut on the flop tube.
I had as many positive feedbacks on that as I had people saying absolutly not to do this. As a non engineer how can I assess the risks or benefits of this ?
A commonly agreed on list moderated by vansairforce forum admin may (in a centralised location, single article) shine a light if this would be a nice mod to do or not.
 
JurgenRoeland said:
A commonly agreed on list moderated by vansairforce forum admin may (in a centralised location, single article) shine a light if this would be a nice mod to do or not.
Click to expand...

This moderator doesn't want any part of a "tips list".

Already enough heat to be endured without having to decide who's tip makes the list and who's doesn't, and the technical merits of how each tip applies to each model........that is why Vans' technical support has an email address and phone number. :)
 
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correct

hendrik said:
If you subtract 90000 from that number, because that specifies the type, you are already down to ~2100 sold kits. And according to Van's website 720 of them are already flying (i.e. not just the empennage is finished). Not too bad, I think.
Click to expand...

I understand my kit is the 2094th sold and the 9 is the model number - I made the assumption everyone else did too - sort of like the plans make the assumption that the stiffners on the rudder, though shown on the plans as the same on each side, in fact are not the same.

As for a 1/3 completion rate, I do not thing that is very good. When I helped build the Kitfox, they had about a 65% completion rate if I remember correctly. If you are selling a product that only 1/3 are completed, look at the lost revenue from purchasing the rest of the kit. I know if I were selling a product, I would rather sell $25k full kits than $2k tail kits.

To bring this back to the thread's goal. I agree with grayforge and the idea of a place would be a good idea. If builders wanted to use it - fine. If not, that's fine too.
 
rockwoodrv9 said:
....the thread's goal. I agree with grayforge and the idea of a place would be a good idea. .....
Click to expand...

then give it a go and start the thread you guys want....maybe some of us are wrong.

BTW- the Best mod for RV-7's is a left hand throttle and Sam James Cowl, hidden hinges are far superior to other fasteners and....:D just kidding

As for a 1/3 completion rate, I do not thing that is very good.....the Kitfox, they had about a 65% completion rate...
Click to expand...

I'd be amazed if the kitfox completions were double the Vans numbers, especially if you compared completions over a certain time period. Remember Vans has kits going out the door daily faster than people can finish them.
 
I'm thinking more than just a thread. More like 3 new categories/subforums under each model specific area. Example:

  • RV-7/7A
    • Plans Clarifications
      • Sticky describing the category
      • Posts within this category...
    • Assembly Tricks
      • Sticky describing the category
      • Posts within this category...
    • Changes and Upgrades
      • Sticky describing the category and disclaimer to implement these ideas at your own risk...
      • Posts within this category...

Below these 3 new categories would be the current generic questions and posts we have now.

I suppose another option is to start another site focused only on these areas and link back to VAF for additional info/reference where appropriate. But again, consolidating info in one place is preferred. Plus, VanAirForce has tremendous traffic already.
 
rockwoodrv9 said:
...I made the assumption everyone else did too - sort of like the plans make the assumption that the stiffners on the rudder, though shown on the plans as the same on each side, in fact are not the same. ...
Click to expand...

I'm building a -7, but it uses a -9 rudder, and there is no difference between the stiffeners on the two sides. When you finish cutting the parts out of the sticks provided you end up with two identical stiffeners of each length. Pick either one for whichever side you match drill first, then use the left over one on the other side.

The flange is up on one side and down on the other because you have to rotate them 180* around their long axis to put the drilled flange against the opposite skin. As long as you point the long taper aft, and use the part with the correct number of holes for the position, it would be hard to go wrong.
 
longranger said:
The flange is up on one side and down on the other because you have to rotate them 180* around their long axis to put the drilled flange against the opposite skin. As long as you point the long taper aft, and use the part with the correct number of holes for the position, it would be hard to go wrong.
Click to expand...

That is the part missing from the plans. A simple note stating that the flange will be up on one side and down on the other. If you are trying to follow the plans exactly, you spend time trying to figure out how it is possible to cut the same for each side with the material given.

As for the Kitfox having a higher completion rate, it is a much easier plane to build. The entire frame comes welded together and depending on experience, it is easier to do fabric than go through the assemble, drill, dissemble, deburr, reassemble, rivet process. But in the end, you end up with a Kitfox. Not that it is a bad plane - it is a great plane - just not what I want. Now the Glasair, that is not an easy build by any means! I will say the Vans plans are much better than the Glasair of the late 90's!
 
rockwoodrv9 said:
That is the part missing from the plans. A simple note stating that the flange will be up on one side and down on the other. If you are trying to follow the plans exactly, you spend time trying to figure out how it is possible to cut the same for each side with the material given.

As for the Kitfox having a higher completion rate, it is a much easier plane to build. The entire frame comes welded together and depending on experience, it is easier to do fabric than go through the assemble, drill, dissemble, deburr, reassemble, rivet process. But in the end, you end up with a Kitfox. Not that it is a bad plane - it is a great plane - just not what I want. Now the Glasair, that is not an easy build by any means! I will say the Vans plans are much better than the Glasair of the late 90's!
Click to expand...

I just started my -7 in January, and I'm with you on the confusing plans, it took me looking at several builder sites to figure out what was going on with the rudder stiffeners. Now I am on the elevator, and guess what? There is a section C-C on drawing 5 that shows exactly what we are talking about! So Van's has a drawing before the rudder showing the info you need, but has you build the elevator after the rudder!

I rely quite a bit on various builder's websites, before I start a sequence I will go to four or five different ones and read them several times to try and get an idea of how it goes and prevent any "gotchas". It doesn't always work on the preventive, for example I was reading one site after I built (but had not riveted) my rudder, about being careful not to trim the R-710 horn brace too much, I went out and looked at mine. Sure enough I had edge distance issues! Ordered another one.

Then I got hit with another gotcha, and this one I read about and went and did it anyway! :(. I was back riveting the stiffeners on the second skin, and back riveting is so easy and goes so quickly - you guessed it - I went past the back riveting plate and dented the skin! Ordered a new one of those! Been working on the elevators since. Skin came today, so I'll probably finish the elevator parts and prime everything together.

Anyway, the various builder sites are invaluable, and there is a recent thread on them, and if you do a search you will find even more.

I scratch built the strcture of a Pitts Model 12 from plans before this project, so I have some previous building experience. I am having a wonderful time with this project though, and while I think some things could be done better by Van's, I am very happy with my experience so far.
 
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I did some more thinking on this and came up with a refinement of the consolidated plans info idea. While having additional categories for narrowing the focus for tips and tricks would be nice, a completely different paradigm might work for specifically helping with construction and following plans:

  • A web site with an index along the left side of the screen listing the section/page of the manual or instructions that a particular tip refers to
  • Builders could look through this list for areas of the plans that they are working on, hopefully clearing up confusion or even preventing them from hitting a stumbling block
  • People who have clarification or tips to add would be able to create a new page. The page would let them add the tip information as well as a separate field for entering the Plans location.
  • The information would be sorted by Plans Section/Page, etc.

Something like this:

index-page-view.jpg
 
Agree, the kit is a great kit

N355DW said:
I just started my -7 in January, and I'm with you on the confusing plans, it took me looking at several builder sites to figure out what was going on with the rudder stiffeners. Now I am on the elevator, and guess what? There is a section C-C on drawing 5 that shows exactly what we are talking about! So Van's has a drawing before the rudder showing the info you need, but has you build the elevator after the rudder!

I rely quite a bit on various builder's websites, before I start a sequence I will go to four or five different ones and read them several times to try and get an idea of how it goes and prevent any "gotchas". It doesn't always work on the preventive, for example I was reading one site after I built (but had not riveted) my rudder, about being careful not to trim the R-710 horn brace too much, I went out and looked at mine. Sure enough I had edge distance issues! Ordered another one.

Then I got hit with another gotcha, and this one I read about and went and did it anyway! :(. I was back riveting the stiffeners on the second skin, and back riveting is so easy and goes so quickly - you guessed it - I went past the back riveting plate and dented the skin! Ordered a new one of those! Been working on the elevators since. Skin came today, so I'll probably finish the elevator parts and prime everything together.

Anyway, the various builder sites are invaluable, and there is a recent thread on them, and if you do a search you will find even more.

I scratch built the strcture of a Pitts Model 12 from plans before this project, so I have some previous building experience. I am having a wonderful time with this project though, and while I think some things could be done better by Van's, I am very happy with my experience so far.
Click to expand...

Damon, I agree with you, this is a great plane and kit. So much of it is easy to understand and makes sense, but everything can be improved. It it way better than the Glasair plans and kit of the 90's.

I also have several builder sites that I go to and that makes all the difference. I haven't had to order anything new yet, but almost with the stiffners. Building the toolbox made it VERY clear that I needed more practice with the rivet gun. The round head rivets were going great until I got careless - now the front of the toolbox has some nice divots in it that look very much like the end of the rivet pounder! Im not even going to describe how my first flush rivets came out. Lets just say I as very glad I found out how bad I was at riveting on the toolbox rather than the skin of the HS.

I picked up some scrap aluminum and have been working with it to get some more experience. When I get to the first skin, Im going to get someone with experience to help me out.

I am also having a good time working on this build. It is a great stress reliever after spending the day "negotiating" with attorneys and engineers. Maybe I should bring the rivet gun to the meetings!

Have a good evening,

rockwood
 
grayforge said:
I did some more thinking on this and came up with a refinement of the consolidated plans info idea. While having additional categories for narrowing the focus for tips and tricks would be nice, a completely different paradigm might work for specifically helping with construction and following plans:

  • A web site with an index along the left side of the screen listing the section/page of the manual or instructions that a particular tip refers to
  • Builders could look through this list for areas of the plans that they are working on, hopefully clearing up confusion or even preventing them from hitting a stumbling block
  • People who have clarification or tips to add would be able to create a new page. The page would let them add the tip information as well as a separate field for entering the Plans location.
  • The information would be sorted by Plans Section/Page, etc.
Click to expand...

Grayforge - What a great layout. I believe it would be very helpful. If the moderators that "want no part of it", do not want it here, it would be easy to host it on a builders site.

Nice layout.
 
Guys, please don't think that Moderators "don't want it here" - you read that wrong. The truth is, this has been tried - you can find a "sticky" at the top of the RV-3 forum which is just for people to post things they found that are wrong wit the plans. But the problem is, it is only as useful as what is contributed, and you simply can't beat folks into contributing.

It's not for lack of desire to help people - Sam Buchanan is known as one of the apostles of RV building in his area, helping countless folks in person and with his web site. i try to contribute as much as I can with answering questions and writing up my experiences. In fact, with our recent RV-3 build, I kept copies of all my posts in a "word" file, with pictures, and it is 257 pages long. Yest the truth is, folks will STILL have more questions about things I didn't write about than the things I did. And I doubt that anyone else will build an RV-3 like we did - it's all about the custom things each builder wants.

There is, BTW, an entire forum devoted to "Tips" with almost 500 threads.

You can create all of the formats and outlines that you want - content is what you are looking for. There is nothing whatsoever stopping you from using these forums for exactly what you want - you just have to figure out how to lad the effort in a way that inspires folks to contribute. that is, after all, the definition of leadership.

Paul
 
"27 Years of the RVator" from Van's is almost entirely a great collection of tips and comments. It's somewhat sorted by model, but tends to lean on the -6.

It's definitely worth ordering.

Also read all the threads on the "Tips" section of VAF. Someone else pointed this out. And for your model, read every single thread in that section.

Dave
 
I can certainly see that Paul (difficulty in getting folks to contribute). People are busy and it takes some effort to switch gears and haul out the writing tools.

I'm a web developer, so I might just try building something in the format I described. I wonder if it could be integrated into vansairforce. I'm not familiar with the capabilities of this forum software.

Regards,
Russ
 
grayforge said:
I'm a web developer, so I might just try building something in the format I described. I wonder if it could be integrated into vansairforce. I'm not familiar with the capabilities of this forum software.
Click to expand...

May I suggest that you start with a Wiki. Use standard Wiki open source software, just start the thing and let people contribute. Don't try to integrate with VAF; VAF is one thing, the potential RV-Wiki is another.

A Wiki, for those who haven't used one, ideally allows anyone to edit it: add new topics, make changes to existing topics, maybe even delete topics. It sounds like chaos but they seem to work surprisingly well. Inevitably with a given topic there will be conflicting opinions. A good editor--I elect you, Grayforge ;)--will allow the differing technical opinions but cut out the personal attacks, insults, etc.

I encourage you to start something, and if you want a contribution for domain names or server use let me know. "From a small acorn a mighty oak grows", or something like that.
 
We'll see if I have time to continue/finish this project... I spent some time this weekend building the database structure for the site. :)

For the listing of plan pages along the left side of the page, I'll need a list of pages in the plans.Anyone know of a list online?

My thought was to have a complete list of pages along the left, with those that have tips associated with them showing up differently (color/format) so that visitors could tell which pages have tips associated with them and which ones have yet to have tips added.

The alternative is to just list the pages that have info added by creating them as items are added, but that leaves the possibility for ad hoc page number entry that could become erratic/non standardized.

Thanks,
Russ
 
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