Shop Heat

I have a 50K BTU kerosene forced air (bullet) heater for my shop, and I'm sick of it. It stinks like crazy. I always keep my front window and a high gable window cracked to keep some fresh air moving, but it doesn't seem to help much. Are the propane fueled forced air heaters any better? I don't really want to spend the bucks to install a built in system - the bullet heater warms the shop up pretty quickly and I don't need to keep it warm all the time. Anyone have any experience withe the propane forced air heaters?

heat

If you do not wish an "installed" fuel system with a chimney/vent to the exterior, your best bet is electric. My experience is that an insulated two car garage can be heated easily with two 4500 watt electric baseboard heaters. Cheap and easy to install assuming you have power, and not expensive to run given the hours you will use it and the size of the space. And thermostatically controlled.

Bill Brooks
Ottawa, Canada
RV-6A still "finishing"

+1 on electric. I've got four 4kw heaters and almost never run all four. Generally, two are plenty sufficient here in Boulder, CO, in a well insulated garage.

Dave

Either kerosene or propane fueled non-vented heaters will produce toxic fumes.

They will make you sick as you have already found out, and in extreme cases kill you.

If you do use one of these, get a carbon monoxide detector.

If you have the electric service available, it would be a lot safer. 220V will be cheaper to operate, usually.

You might consider finding a forced air furnace like in your home, and just forget the 99% of the duct work, but be sure to vent the combustion fumes outside. I have seen this done in lots of hangars. A couple of short lengths of ducting to direct the heated air in the general direction will do the job in most cases.

Heater

It depends on your space. Insulated very well?
I'm probably the odd one buy I use a Big Buddy with the optional propane hose and wall brick adapter. I think it's 18k BTU. One 25 lb bottle lasts almost all winter. I bought a CO detector but it has never registered anything. I turn it off and close the tank valve any time I work with volatile fluids.
Price was right and available in lots of stores. Plus if you want a camping heater, just put two camp propane bottles in it and a few "D" cells and take it.

We insulated our 2 car garage in Milwaukee WI and heat it with a single ancient (35 years) electric heater. It's cheap to run and keeps the garage over 50 except when under 5 degrees or so ambient. Once you take the airplane out, it's sure nice to have a heated garage! And no snow or ice to clean off the cars which were living outside...

I have a Workforce HD200A propane heater that I bought at HD. It is just as noisy as my old kerosene heater, but no noticeable fumes. I always use a CO detector, but my garage is leaky enough that it has never triggered, even with extended use. When I was doing fiberglass work on my -10, there was no problem getting temps up to 70-75*.

I don't think I'll ever be able to go back to the bad old days before central A/C and gas furnace in the shop. Always perfect for garage slippers no matter if it is 100 degrees or sleeting outside. But you sure have to do more than just build one airplane to justify the cost.

My shop/hanger is 42x40 with 12' insulated walls and roof. I have three attic fans to circulate the heat that accumulates up high. I installed this heater and I'm thrilled after 3 years.


http://www.northerntool.com/shop/tools/product_425107_425107

I work comfortably in 20-30 deg though it takes a while to warm it up.

I bought a 220V electric heater from Northern Tool for about $125, it easily heated my 2 car garage to a comfortable 50-60's with OAT's in the teens. I wasn't sure it would work so I "temporarily" installed it with baling wire to the ceiling 2 years ago. I would generally leave it on low which kept the shop around 40 degrees and click it onto high and within 20-30 minutes it was tshirt weather in the garage. It wasn't super noisy, about like an old washing machine.

LP heater?

I just replaced the heater in my shop with one of these:
http://www.northerntool.com/shop/tools/product_200442160_200442160

I used a very similar heater for 10+ years and it worked great. I live in northern Illinois, so I needed a real heater! This type of heater does not need a vent, so it was pretty easy to install. Combustion byproduct is water vapor, so you may need a dehumidifier. Typically in the dead of winter it is so dry here that it isn't a problem, but your mileage may vary.

If you want a bit less operating expense than electric resistance heat and want another 'project', you could consider finding an old window air conditioner and insert it in the wall (or under the garage door, etc) backwards. Requires a bit of hacking of the thermostat sensor to keep it running, but it basically becomes a heat pump heater & can give anywhere from a 2-1 to 5-1 return on wattage input.

There's a whole group dedicated to hacking various refrigeration systems to work as heat pumps, if you're interested.

Charlie

My shop is not real air tight so venting is not a problem. I have two 75,000 bullet type heaters that I use K-1 kerosene in. I also have a couple of small electric heaters that came from Wal Mart. What I do when I go to the shop is to turn on the one or two kerosene heaters to get the temp up fast in the shop then I place the two electric heaters one on each side of where I am working and cut the kerosene heaters off. The electric heaters create a kind of heat bubble around me while I work. I have never had a smoke or fume problem with the kerosene heaters. If yours are smoking and fuming you need to adjust something or change fuels. Mine say that I can burn kerosene or diesel, I have always used K-1 with good results.

I have used both kerosene and propane. The propane does not have any odor. You will chunk the kerosene heater after you use the propane. I have used the propane to warm the work space for 5 minutes, then used electric to maintain temp. I can change the temp from 50 to 80 in five minutes (150,000 btu's). The blower is noisy to run all the time if it is close by. You can also look at propane wall heater. Always be aware of combustible fluids if using an open flame.

MikeyDale said:

My shop/hanger is 42x40 with 12' insulated walls and roof. I have three attic fans to circulate the heat that accumulates up high. I installed this heater and I'm thrilled after 3 years.

http://www.northerntool.com/shop/tools/product_425107_425107

I work comfortably in 20-30 deg though it takes a while to warm it up.

Click to expand...

+1 for this heater. I don't think that mine is quite that big. I heat a 24 by 24 garage in MI. I have yet to be out in the garage and be cold even when it is -10 F. It heats up fast.

Hey bud

This is a great topic to discuss. I just had to go through this. The gas company quoted me $1800 to run a gas line to my shop and install the $1000 unit in the ceiling totally $2800 NO WAY!

My garage has 100 amp service alone so i was thinking why not electric? Yea its a little expensive to run but not really as bad as most people think

My shop is 16X32 its basically a 2 car garage but 2 cars deep

This is what i choose. Its 220, 20 amps

http://www.northerntool.com/shop/tools/product_595_595

It works EXTREMELY well! I can be in a tshirt and no fumes. Heck half the time i work in my slippers in a tshirt.

The one thing i did do was seal my garage door for the winter. I don't need in and out so i drape plastic over the door, stuff it full of R30 insulation like a big turkey and then staple it to the wall. It works very well. And for for less then 500 SQ ft shop and for $249 you can't beat it. Wonderful

Slippers

ijustwannafly said:

It works EXTREMELY well! I can be in a tshirt and no fumes. Heck half the time i work in my slippers in a tshirt.

Click to expand...

Wish I could be there the first time you get a sliver of aluminum in your bare foot!
I sweep the shop every day before going in and still find them inside the house.

It's a permenant option, but I spent about $500 on Amazon and put a Pioneer split ac/heat pump system in my garage after insulating it well. I know have AC and heat to around 70 in either direction within half an hour. Makes working in my shop way more comfortable and motivating!

I just use a kerosene convection heater burning Jet A, which seems to generate less odor than kerosene. For colder days I also have an oscillating infrared electric heater, which helps spread the heat around a lot better. I'd love to do something better, but there's a lack of space, electric service and gas lines anywhere near the garage that would make it expensive and time consuming... so that's what I've got.

Really my only gripe is that it takes 30-45 minutes to get the temp up to 45 or better on the cold days. Especially when winds are like tonight, 17G31. And of course when my wife opens the garage door to get her car in or out, there goes the heat.

wirejock said:

Wish I could be there the first time you get a sliver of aluminum in your bare foot!
I sweep the shop every day before going in and still find them inside the house.

Click to expand...

OOOOOO Larry!!!! You just got taken off the christmas card list!!!!

Hey I've been meaning to call you! We have commenced construction down here! Lots to report. Learning more and more every day! Me and my slippers!
Give me a ring when you get time! Hope you and sweetie are well!

wirejock said:

Wish I could be there the first time you get a sliver of aluminum in your bare foot!

Click to expand...

Yes, it smarts. I have shop slippers and house slippers. Still got a few chips upstairs. Radiant floor here.

I'll tell you though. My shop is a shambles now. I used to keep it spic and span during the build. Now that it is over, and I don't have a real project anymore, it is getting cluttered and out of control.

n18pf said:

I just replaced the heater in my shop with one of these:
http://www.northerntool.com/shop/tools/product_200442160_200442160

I used a very similar heater for 10+ years and it worked great. I live in northern Illinois, so I needed a real heater! This type of heater does not need a vent, so it was pretty easy to install. Combustion byproduct is water vapor, so you may need a dehumidifier. Typically in the dead of winter it is so dry here that it isn't a problem, but your mileage may vary.

Click to expand...

It strongly depends on where you live. I would rather use an electric heater. Burning propane produces a lot of water vapor.
1 lbs propane produces 1.64 lbs of water.

C3H8 + 5 O2 = 3 CO2 + 4 H2O
or
44g propane + 160g oxygen = 132g CO2 + 72g water

Maybe it is different, if you live in a really cold and dry climate, but in the typical Western European winter with temperatures around freezing, the moisture will condense on all cold surfaces like your tools. With propane you will likely need a dehydrator.

Shop heat-sorta

Heat where you are working, and light where you are looking. The rest is wasted. Anyway, that's what I tell myself.

Dress really warm (I use my ski bibs and flannel underwear more than I ever did skiing) along with turtle necks and layered fleece.
Buy one or possibly two of those radiant <1500watt heat reflector radiators that Costco sells. No fan, meaning quiet, and not much power consumption, 700watts each (I think) and no special wiring; they run off standard 120VAC (US). They will heat you (one side each) and roughly a 5 to 6 foot circle immediately in front of the heater. I get by with one but find myself rotating to evenly distribute the radiated heat. Hence the recommendation to get two (try one first). There's the old joke that with radiant heat you are roasting on one side and freezing on the other so on average you are just right. BTW, don't 'fool' with fuel tanks when using them or you will get explosive results.

Buy two of those blue foam camping sleeping mats (Walmart). Cut one in half and use the two halves as moveable insulated flooring. Use the long one for when you are forced to lie down to work. The effect of standing on one of these mats is almost an immediate feeling of warmth as it insulates you from the cold floor. Best part is they're, once again, portable. I also use them as insulated pads under the seats in my RV8. Blocks the cold from working up through the seats.

It's weird, but drink lots of water.

You will get to working with above without even thinking about it and you will find yourself being surprised when you step out of the 'zone' to find it is really cold everywhere but where you are working. I have a big propane powered heater but find the small electric one usually more useful as I can drag it around to where I happen to be at that moment.

If I am working in the cockpit I place a ceramic heater inside to heat it up first (my Canopy is installed but you can make a temp one out of thick plastic). You might be able to place the heater so it keeps you warm while your inside the cockpit as well.

I didn't mention gloves as the above usually makes them unnecessary which is a good thing as they just get in the way. Also, the above are 'relatively' inexpensive things you can do. The heaters are $59@, the matts are what? $@6 each? Yes these recommendations are not for the safety 'unconscious'.

These suggestions will extend the working season but there are times when it is frankly just too darn cold to work in an uninsulated and unheated shop.

Good Luck,
Vince
RV8 N8432

ijustwannafly said:

Hey bud

This is a great topic to discuss. I just had to go through this. The gas company quoted me $1800 to run a gas line to my shop and install the $1000 unit in the ceiling totally $2800 NO WAY!

My garage has 100 amp service alone so i was thinking why not electric? Yea its a little expensive to run but not really as bad as most people think

My shop is 16X32 its basically a 2 car garage but 2 cars deep

This is what i choose. Its 220, 20 amps

http://www.northerntool.com/shop/tools/product_595_595

It works EXTREMELY well! I can be in a tshirt and no fumes. Heck half the time i work in my slippers in a tshirt.

The one thing i did do was seal my garage door for the winter. I don't need in and out so i drape plastic over the door, stuff it full of R30 insulation like a big turkey and then staple it to the wall. It works very well. And for for less then 500 SQ ft shop and for $249 you can't beat it. Wonderful

Click to expand...

how far away from the house is your garage? I did not spend more than $500 to have the line run from my house to the garage and they broke into a line inside the house and ran it to the garage, where it was deadheaded with a ball valve. I hung the heater and ran the gas line from the heater to the gas line.

I did dig the trench from the house to the garage, which saved the contractor a lot of time. I would have run the gas line myself, but it is kind of hard to buy the parts unless you are licensed.

Interesting; natural gas regs must be much tighter in some parts of the USA than here. I've never had any problems buying what I needed to do natural gas work.

For attached structures (no burial of lines), it's legal in at least some areas to run soft copper tubing. Lots easier/faster than threading black pipe. I buried yellow plastic line between my hangar & house, doing all the work myself.

Any new ventless gas wall heater will have a CO detector built in, but as others have said, it's unlikely that a typical shop will be tight enough for it to matter. I use an ancient open flame space heater (basically a burner in a box; light it with a match) in the workroom in my hangar . The room leaks so much air that after using it for a few weeks the 1st season, I quit worrying about CO or CO2.

Charlie

I have a suspended gas (propane) heater with a roof vent. Got the 180K btu heater at a garage sale for $20. Did the install myself including trenching the plastic coated iron pipe. Local propane company came out and inspected unit and tested the line.
Works great!!! Flip a switch and it is warm in ten minutes. Turn it off when I walk out. Does not use that much gas as I only keep it warm when I am working.
Now if I had to go out and pay retail for the unit.....

I keep thinking about building one of these for my garage. Then I'll have better heat for the next RV I keep thinking about...

Mother Earth Waste Oil Burner

OK, this is pretty cheesy, but I just run the heat gun for a little while...of course, down here (GA) anything below about 40 is really cold.

==dave==