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Ditching a RV

sailvi767

Well Known Member
I am curious if anyone is aware of a RV ditching. My airport leaves a water landing as the most viable option if the engine quits on departure. I have thought through how it might go many times. I have no doubt that the aircraft is going to flip over on its back. The question then becomes how easy or hard will it be to get out of a RV6 or 7 tipup. The more I think it though the more I suspect I should have a canopy breaker installed since I am not sure opening the canopy inverted will be a valid option. Any thoughts or is there any actual history of a RV ditching?

George
 
George - I've been thinking about the same thing. Would like to know if my "canopy breaker" hammer will actually do the job. Has anyone tried to break a damaged canopy to see how it will work? One reason to have a slider I guess - open before ditching. Ron

RV9
C-FTJE
 
Try using the search function. This topic has come up a number of times with the same never ending debate comments.
 
I've heard people say that they can't open a slider during flight is that any truth,, this should be a good discussion, I am looking into buying a RV6 and am wondering the same thing, I had a good friend of mine that was flying a Zodiac 601 with a subaru engine, engine blew a coolant line, filling cockpit with smoke, he had a tipup canopy on it and could not get it open, well he lost orientation and started clipping trees with landing gear and went into the woods at 75mph and he and the engine were ejected off of airframe and fell into the woods, the main fuselage and wings were left hanging into trees 50ft in the air, he was 70ish years old and only had a broke leg, he is the luckiest man I know,he did make the comment that if he had windows or a slider(if you could open it in flight) he could have vented enough smoke to atleast put it down in a field or safe place.
 
Personally I was wondering about ideas for ground roll overs and canopies, , as far as the water goes , its just like a car, in our Fire fighting training, exiting a car is as simple as breaking suction, just like the fellas canopy in the story, once you push and pry just enough the suction will break and it will open up.
 
Personally I was wondering about ideas for ground roll overs and canopies, , as far as the water goes , its just like a car, in our Fire fighting training, exiting a car is as simple as breaking suction, just like the fellas canopy in the story, once you push and pry just enough the suction will break and it will open up.

Assuming you're not in shallow enough water that your canopy is laying in or blocked by the river bed or whatever. Which is what scares me.... :eek:

The Mythbusters underwater car episodes give me the willies too. Although they've said what folks have learned watching those episodes has actually saved real lives.
 
That's a pretty scary scenario, especially with a tip up. I'd rather go in the water in pretty much any car as opposed to a low wing airplane, especially one with a tip up canopy. I've never done it, but I'd want a way to break the canopy. Otherwise, you may have to let it completely fill up on the inside before you can open it. Yikes! If the bottom of the body of water is right there, then you're in serious trouble. Your only way out may be to break it somehow. It would be pretty hard to swing anything hard enough to break your canopy, while you're underwater.
 
Check the archives for past discussions on the issue of ditching.

When upside down, canopy touching the ground, breaking out your canopy is needed for evac.

My favorite tool for breaking the canopy is a removable, unplug control stick with, inserted at the bottom, a mostly solid impact point. Until this, I carried a M9 bayonet for evac.

Check the archives. It is good to see the different perspectives.
 
I noticed Aircraft Spruce carries a nice canopy breaker tool. Looks like a B-day present to myself. I do recall a prior thread where someone did some testing on a ruined canopy and said they were not difficult to break. I did search before posting but did not see any actual ditchings. I was sure given the number of RV's flying there have to be a couple that have ditched. The link to the RV8 ditching was very interesting.

George
 
This might be slightly off-topic, but bear with me.

I took a helicopter underwater egress training course several years ago from Survival Systems USA in Groton CT. They strap you into device that simulates a helo fuselage, then dump you into a pool upside down, right side up, etc and teach you how to orient yourself, find an exit, and get out of the airframe.

Most of the course focused on egress without spare O2, but we did one scenario with HEEDS/SpareAir bottles and having a air source made a huge difference in being able to avoid disorientation and panic, which are real killers in a ditching scenario, while finding a way to egress the aircraft.

I'm building a tipup 7, and when we're finally flying it we'll have a couple of SpareAir bottles and the training to use them properly. Training isn't cheap, but it might just save your bacon if you do a lot of overwater flying.

HTH

Dave
 
Another Consideration...

Last October, a good friend of mine ditched his Swift in Chesapeake Bay while on a pleasure flight with his elderly mother. He landed gear up (of course) and it did not flip over. However, it DID sink so fast that he was several feet under water and riding the airplane to the bottom before he even got the seatbelts undone.

The fact that they spent several hours in the water with search airplanes flying right over them; his mother eventually expiring, and my buddy finally dragging himself on shore well after dark is a whole other story - but the thought that the airplane is going to bob along the surface for several minutes while you make an orderly egress may be wishful thinking.
 
On the sliding canopies, the fact that you can't open themin flight is probably a good thing when it comes to ditching. If you *could* slide it right back, when you hit the water it will surely slide forward again... The first hit will be a sudden deceleration. Best possibility for the slider then is to get rid of the canopy first, which requires quick-release pins at the forward rollers. Pull the pins, unlatch the handle, and pull back. It will come an inch or two in flight, which should be enough to get it past the fairing and let the aerodynamics take it away.

The quick deceleration on impact may prove to help in the case of a tipper... Unlatched it apparently will rise ~6" at the back. If you pull the quick-release handle, maybe the landing impact would carry the canopy forward, opening it.

Also, keep in mind that many tailwheel, fixed gear aircraft have ditched upright. Get it slowed down, drop the tailwheel in first, and you're likely to just pancake the last few feet and then stop quick. Debate on other forums in the past has suggested intentionally dipping a wingtip at the last second to convert some of your forward momentum into angular momentum and draw out the impact over a longer time period... This reduces g-forces on the body substantially. Of course you'd probably need the hands of Capt. Sullenberger to pull it off... :)
 
Best possibility for the slider then is to get rid of the canopy first, which requires quick-release pins at the forward rollers. Pull the pins, unlatch the handle, and pull back. It will come an inch or two in flight, which should be enough to get it past the fairing and let the aerodynamics take it away.

I disagree with getting rid of the canopy before ditching. As does the pilot of the RV-8A that has actual experience ditching an RV successfully. He described the impact with the water as he was going inverted, as being violent, and that he felt the canopy being there protected him from more serious injury.

I agree that the ability to open the canopy after you are in the water is an uncertainty, but being unconscious because of the violent impact with the water with no protection of the canopy is even less pleasing.
 
viable option?

I would be inclined to rethink whether a water landing, if there is an option for a land landing, is likely to be the better option.
Adding the uncertainty and difficulty of being inverted or submerged in water, and with whatever injuries or difficulties of fast egress might exist from either pilot or passenger injury or damage to the airframe, seems unlikely to be the better option. It would be a truly exceptional situation, I think, where I would choose a water landing over even a very difficult land option.
Bill Brooks
Ottawa Canada
RV-6A finishing
 
I agree Bill, A water landing should be a choice of last resort. I am a former Navy pilot and have had the best water egress training money can buy. I still don't want to ditch given any other choice. The problem is that the airport I fly out of may not offer another option if the motor quits between 500 and 1000 feet. There are many things that can go wrong in a ditching. I would much prefer dry land.

George
 
survival gear

....which brings to mind, if we are over any terrain where the landing sites are 1/3 or more water, ( ie; where you'd choose a river or lake over a steep rocky slope.)
....then perhaps all occupants should be wearing a 'mae-west' or similar inflatable life vest. I have the $120 suspender type for my passengers, and wear my fly-fishing vest with a similar C02 inflator.
Odds are pretty good than one or both of you will be injured, and unable to stay afloat, even if you were an olympic swimmer!
the vest should keep you at the surface, and worst case, able to be 'recovered'.
 
I remember this article from 2002 about ditching vs trees/roads/fields/etc. Pretty interesting. Bottom line seems to be that both options are reasonably survivable IF one is prepared and equipped.
 
So let's assume the following:

Tip-up canopy, side-by-side, NO quick-release pull handle
Forced ditching
Emergency air supply for both occupants
Some sort of tool to break the canopy
Both wearing life jackets while over water away from land
5-point harnesses -> probably no physical injuries due to impact on landing

What options are available?
Unlatch the canopy prior to ditching (both finger latches and upper canopy latch)
Break the canopy prior to ditching
What else?

Best technique for ditching? Tail first (tri-gear or conventional, any difference?)
What if she flips?

How much time before she sinks?

Etc....?
 
So let's assume the following:

Tip-up canopy, side-by-side, NO quick-release pull handle
Forced ditching
Emergency air supply for both occupants
Some sort of tool to break the canopy
Both wearing life jackets while over water away from land
5-point harnesses -> probably no physical injuries due to impact on landing

What options are available?
Unlatch the canopy prior to ditching (both finger latches and upper canopy latch)
Break the canopy prior to ditching
What else?

Best technique for ditching? Tail first (tri-gear or conventional, any difference?)
What if she flips?

How much time before she sinks?

Etc....?

To start with alittle less coffee before the flight!
 
Ditching

Ditching has a cushion effect, true. Flip over likely w/gear down.

Likely impossible to recover survival gear from plane.

Ditching in cold water, Hypothermia = end.

Ditching in water, you have approximately 3 minutes to get to air.

Ditching in blue water, sharks and surf at shore.

Ditching in river, current: takes you away from help; areas of suction.

Ditching in a lake large enough, best water option. Aim for shore.

Go for land if remotely reasonable terrain.
 
One More Consideration...

...Ditching has a cushion effect, true...

My buddy with the Swift was trying to reach a nearby island, so he was flying with a 30 knot tailwind. Since he was trying to strech his glide as long as possible, he never had the time to turn upwind before hitting the water. Apparently, a light airplane hitting 5 foot swells at over 100 MPH is far from a "cushoin effect"... He said it was the most severe impact he's ever expeienced. Despite the shoulder harness, they both hit the instrument panel really hard.
 
My recollection is that water impacts above a certain speed (something like 50mph, it's not very fast) are akin to hitting concrete... But that really only applies to straight-on impacts. Anything you can do to make it a slow, low angle impact will work in your favour.
 
Water landing in a tip-up should be survivable.

Looking at the design of the tip-up?s, release the canopy latches when on ?final?. This will allow the canopy to float open a few inches in the air.

Upon impact, the canopy will probably swing forward and rip out of the lift struts. Then, as the plane takes a nose down position in the water, you can release your harnesses and get out.

This is all conjecture of course as I haven?t ditched my -9.

Since you can't open a slider in the air, there is a chance (even a slight chance) that it could jam upon impact and may not be able to get out at all.

In talking with a friend and fellow RV builder who ditched a PA28 coming back from the Bahamas a few years back, he said the Piper did float for about 10 minutes. Long enough for both of them to get out but not long enough for them to get anything out of the cockpit. He went on to say that it floated nose down with the tail in the air. Lucky for them that they were only in the water a few minutes as he had flight flowing for the entire flight and when it became obvious they were going in, the Coast Guard dispatched a helicopter.

This is why it is important to don your PFD before climbing in the plane because if you don?t , you won?t have it on when you get out; on the ground or in the water.
 
I've given this a lot of thought, given that I fly in Alaska. I'd rather take my chances with trees and rough terrain, than go into the water. If I had to choose between the two, then I choose trees. I also WEAR whatever survival gear I might need. I don't fly over vast expanses of water on a regular basis so, I don't have a PFD. But I keep my personal locator beacon (PLB), bolt knife, pocket knife, 550 cord and a fire starter on my person when I'm flying. I carry a lot more stuff in the back. But if I have to get out of the plane because it's sinking or on fire, I have that stuff. If I could only have one piece of survival gear, it would be a good combat survival knife. I have a Cold Steel SRK. It is a 6" fixed blade knife. These things are extremely useful. You can cut down a 4" diameter tree with it as long as you know how to use it. Believe me, I've done it. You can hit it with logs to split other logs. You can start fires with it, and do everything else a knife does. I think I paid $60 for it. I would never go flying without it.
coldsteelSRK_enl.jpg
 
Water landing in a tip-up should be survivable.

Looking at the design of the tip-up?s, release the canopy latches when on ?final?. This will allow the canopy to float open a few inches in the air.

Upon impact, the canopy will probably swing forward and rip out of the lift struts. Then, as the plane takes a nose down position in the water, you can release your harnesses and get out.

This is all conjecture of course as I haven?t ditched my -9.

Since you can't open a slider in the air, there is a chance (even a slight chance) that it could jam upon impact and may not be able to get out at all.

snipped

Or, the tip up could be mashed to bit's on impact, while the slider "roll bar" bares the brunt of the forces. Once again, just conjecture........but the way I visualize it.
 
Or, the tip up could be mashed to bit's on impact, while the slider "roll bar" bares the brunt of the forces. Once again, just conjecture........but the way I visualize it.

Larry,

I'm not sure what you envision here.

It seems to me, that if the pilot gets either the tail or main gear in the water first (tail dragger or tricycle gear doesn't matter), the nose will rotate into the water at a great rate. This will cause the tip-up to flip open and probably ?smash to bits?. A slider, if open, will slam shut. Regardless if the slider is open or closed during a ditching, there is a chance the side rails will twist, possibly jamming it, on impact. I have no illusions regarding the forces at work during a water landing; it will be a violent event.

Either way, the roll bar structure in the slider won?t come into play as by the time the roll bar gets wet, there will be very little energy left.
 
RV4 Water...

The gas guy at West Yellowstone joked he would not gas N95JF since a 4 went into Shoshone Lake the day before after he fueled it...details are pilot did not make it, passenger did. Circa 1989. Have always felt that I will take upside down in the delta/lake/bay over upside down in a field anyday...but like roads lots more...for a 4, just miles and miles of runways (w cars and wires!!).....J
 
A lot depends on luck.

Early on in my firefighting career I responded to two separate incidents where C-185s flipped in the water. The first incident, the passengers managed to get out, but the pilot had expired inside the aircraft before we could rescue him. The second incident, the aircraft struck a sailboat killing one of the crew on board the boat, the passengers and pilot were all able to get out of the aircraft and were clinging to the it when we arrived. Both of these aircraft were equipped with floats and remained at the surface.

A few years ago, a friend crashed his Kitfox on floats. The aircraft was heavily damaged (I have photos, but will not post them in respect of the forum rules)
He was severely injured in the accident but managed to get out. We had a number of conversations since about his experience. He remembers being extremely disoriented. but was able to remain calm enough to realize the bubbles were going to the surface so it made sense to follow them. He was also able to hold on to the aircraft which remained at the surface. He felt if there had been nothing on the surface to hang onto the outcome would likely have been different, as it was several minutes before assistance arrived on scene.

I'm not sure where I stand on the water verses land argument, I've been to crash scenes where it did not go well in either case. I will say through experience though, if you want assistance it's far easier for rescuers to reach a downed aircraft on land then it is to get to one in the water.
 
Seems like there is probably a super smart engineer reading who could do some fancy engineer math and tell whether or not a tailwheel RV will flip over in a water landing. I believe it will, but not sure. I know I have a fairly aft cg and in a tail low water landing I am not sure if the drag force on the gear would over come the cg, elevator up input and nose/prop/spinner moment???
 
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