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Andair gascolator safety issue

T

Tom Martin

Well Known Member
I have 560 hours on my aircraft and I clean my Andair gascolator every annual. It is always clean and has done a good job in my aircraft; it is the "375" model. This year when I removed the bowl the little filter had come unthreaded and was laying in the bottom of the bowl. Thus for a while I had been flying with no fuel filter. I reassembled the unit but I have no confidence that the filter will not back out again. There is no method of locking the filter in the bowl. It is quite possible that with time the filter threads have perhaps lost a bit of "self locking" ability. Clearly this is a safety issue and I sent a note to Andair, from their website, three days ago, and have not yet received a reply. I will replace the filter, not cheap $54, but the unit no longer gives me a warm fussy feeling.
The blue filter sold by Van's is, in my opinion, a less expensive, better unit.
This is not a , no gascolator discussion, as in Canada it is required. I am disappointed in the lack of response from Andair.
 
Andair

Andair makes a first rate product and this is not intended to slam them, however in my experience you will have zero luck contacting them by email. Try calling them during business hours in England, if they answer they will take care of you. I believe it is a small shop and they are not really setup to deal with the retail end.
We had a leak problem with their fuel caps, it took something like 3 months before we were able to get all 4 replaced and then we ended up with 2 extra before it was all over.

Good luck
Tim
 
That's interesting, I would have thought the filter would be captured by the bottom of the bowl and unable to back out all the way. Perhaps they need to make the filter a bit longer (or the bowl a bit shorter) to prevent that from happening.
 
Water trap

The space at the bottom is a safe area for water. Keeping the screen above the bottom is a good idea. Some molded stand off fingers on the bottom of the screen would prevent the filter from backing off as described above.

As a small business owner that just had a family funeral I can say that it is challenging to keep all the wheels turning and answer emails in a timely manner. Some of my best customers have been waiting patiently for a couple weeks now.

Great products often evolve from very from small business.

I really like Andair products. I am sure he will look after this for you and others.:)

PS: The center tunnel in a Rocket is subject to considerable vibration from the exhaust pulse. I have the same gascolator and all was well at last inspection. Between the vibration and difficulty in reaching the location for service it is enough to make me consider other locations for mounting.
 
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Threads

Hi

Any thread that is self locking will loose its locking ability with repeated removal and reassembly. That is why in the uk they recommend not using nylocks more than twice. Personally I feel for an additional load when the nylock section starts to engage the thread over that of the bare thread going on.

This is what you should have looked for last time you refitted the filter. If it just span on with little or no resistance it should have been replaced at your last annual.

Having said that Andy is pretty much a one man band and will probably be gearing up for Sun and Fun so you will find him overworked and difficult to contact at this time. But, after you have thought about this you will probably realize this was a maintenance issue rather than product issue.


Btw I have the same bowl on my 9 and a vans on my 4. Both require proper maintenance.
 
This is what you should have looked for last time you refitted the filter. If it just span on with little or no resistance it should have been replaced at your last annual.

Having said that Andy is pretty much a one man band and will probably be gearing up for Sun and Fun so you will find him overworked and difficult to contact at this time. But, after you have thought about this you will probably realize this was a maintenance issue rather than product issue.


Btw I have the same bowl on my 9 and a vans on my 4. Both require proper maintenance./QUOTE]

Ok, I have read the literature, checked out the video and the only mention of ever having to replace the filter is if it is damaged. I believe that I have followed proper maintenance and if it was too loose that last time I installed the filter I would not have put it in service. Here is a critical fuel system part that has no means of securing it in place, it has failed in service, and the supplier does not respond in a reasonable amount of time and in your mind this is completely due to poor maintenance on my part. I posted this note so that others could check this unit when they do their maintenance although I am not really sure, based on my experience what they should look for. The unit is put in place with finger pressure only and it still fits snuggly. I am a small business person, I respond to my emails and phone calls. I do not continue to do business with those who do not. This unit is nicely made but it is a premium priced product and it should not be constructed in such a way that the filter can simply fall out of place. Another poster suggested some stand off in the bottom of the bowl and I would suggest that that is an excellent and positive contribution to the discussion.
Click to expand...
 
Wear and tear

Tom, you seem to have taken this as an attack on you where none was I tented only helpful advice and and a different view on the matter. The screen is secured as you say by finger pressure but acts in the same way as a nylock does,you cannot repeatedly use a nylock and expect to hold in place.

I wonder where you bought the unit was it directly from Andy or a supplier? The reason I ask is because normally I would go back to the supplier with a problem ?

Anyway to help you I will contact Andy when I return to the uk from California it may take me some time as well because as i say he could well be traveling to and from Sun and Fun. In fact I should be meeting a friend Whois going there tomorrow so will ask him to give him the heads up
 
Gascolator really needed?

In this day and age, and evidenced by you not finding anything in yours, what are the thoughts that the gascolator has gone the way of the dinosaur in today's applications? Am nowhere near installing the fuel system so this is one of the decisions yet to be made for my RV-8 but leaning toward no gascolator. Thx. Gus
 
GusRV8 said:
In this day and age, and evidenced by you not finding anything in yours, what are the thoughts that the gascolator has gone the way of the dinosaur in today's applications? Am nowhere near installing the fuel system so this is one of the decisions yet to be made for my RV-8 but leaning toward no gascolator. Thx. Gus
Click to expand...

If you sump your tanks, that's where you will find water if there is any. I purchased my first airplane in 1979, and to date, I have never found any water in the wings or the gascolator.

A gasoclator is a heat sink and not even a good filter. A good in line stainless filter of about 100 micron that you can easily inspect would serve you well.

Filter example........ http://www.summitracing.com/parts/AEI-12316/
 
My filter philosophy

Gascolators are required for Canadian built aircraft. To get around them being a heat sink, I put an Andair 375's between the fuse and wing under the gap fairing (RV7A). Not sure if it would fit here for other models. No engine heat here and lots of cooling air.

I put one in each wing root, thus eliminating the now redundant AFP pre-filter which is much harder to get at and messy for inspection/cleaning.

This way each tank has it's own Gascolator which is really just serving as an easily inspectable filter, located right next to the fuel tank. Total weight is about the same as one gascolator and the AFP filter.

Just another way. Not flying yet though.

Bevan
 
Walt said:
That's interesting, I would have thought the filter would be captured by the bottom of the bowl and unable to back out all the way. Perhaps they need to make the filter a bit longer (or the bowl a bit shorter) to prevent that from happening.
Click to expand...
I have a sump drain valve screwed into the bottom of my Andair gascolator and it was long enough to stop the filter from backing out all the way. I took it apart when I couldn't open the valve to the "lock-open" position. I re-torqued the filter and it's been okay now for several hundred hours.
 
Mike
I really do like the idea of something in the bottom of the bowl that will not allow the filter to back out. In your case if the threaded portion of your drain goes far enough in to do this does it then not allow a puddle of water and/or sediment to collect around that extension?

Steve
I apologize if I got a bit testy but I do not believe this to be a case of improper maintenance. I think that it is a design problem that is showing up after time in use. In most locations on aircraft if an elastic locking agent is not thought to be secure enough another method of securing that part should be considered. Safety wire, locking tabs, cotter pins etc. In this case I do believe that the thread on this filter is pipe thread, like all engine fittings on the aircraft. In that case, when tightened properly they do not leak nor work loose. However this filter is rather delicate, indicated by the finger tighten only, method of securing it. I would suggest that this is not enough.
Sometimes design problems do not show up until there are quite a few hours on a part and perhaps this is one of those cases. If, in the literature, or on the website, the company stated that this part needed to be replaced after so many hours of use, or after so many removals, I would be ok with it. I change my oil and air filter on a regular basis. Usually, as the website video suggests, this screen and others on the engine, like the oil sump screen, do not have to be replaced unless they are damaged in some way.
This is a design issue that needs to be dealt with in two ways; either an alternate method of securing the screen or a statement of regular replacement. At $54 buck a pop I would not like to have to replace this screen once a year. Thus an alternate filter/gascolator should be considered.

In Canada we are required to use a gascolator and I agree with that rule. This unit has a very good filter (except that it falls off on occasion) and the ability to sump the unit means that not only are you able to check for water, rare, but you can get a heads up if other foreign material is present in your fuel system. That is my issue with most filter only fuel systems, there is no way to check on a regular basis for contaminants.
 
Tom,

Thanks for posting this. I've got the Andair gascolator, and I'll have a very close look at things on my next annual. I'll see if I can come up with a mod to put in the bottom of the bowl so the filter cannot unscrew all the way.
 
Walt
I have been considering some type of sealant and proseal would be a good one. At this point I am going to order a new filter and wait for the owner of the company to get back to me regarding this issue.
 
Easy filter boost

Find any thin wall plastic or SS thin wall tube. Cut it to correct length to assur the filter does not drop down. Drill it full of holes wit big scollops at the bottom to pass sediment to the drain port. Fixed !
 
Potential safety issue

Tom

where we agree is there is a potential safety issue here, in my view what is wrong with the design is that it relys heavily on the sense of 'fee' of the person replacing the filter. Some people have it some don't, am not suggesting you don't

Perhaps andy can beef up the threaded area on the filter or give different service instructions. Anyway let me tell you he is a good guy an excellent engineer t
I trust him and I don't say that of many people.
 
Larry,
Excellent suggestion regarding the stand off in the bottom of the bowl. If it was held in position with a few small dabs of proseal this could prove to be a good solution for my issue. I will take a look at it tomorrow.
 
Tom

When I was talking to Andy today about some parts for my RV-10 I asked him about the filter coming loose. He seemed to think its wasn't an issue if the filter was done up tight enough.
A stand off or putting a drain on the bottom seems a sensible solution.

Andy is easy to talk to if you want to contact him call UK time which is currently UTC.

Peter
 
It was a week ago that I sent my first email to "Andy" regarding this issue. I sent a second one this morning. For some reason I am not having much luck getting a telephone connection and it is annoying to not be able to contact a supplier by email. If the supplier does not have time to respond to emails then the email feature should be REMOVED from their website.
This is a safety issue, I would not put the filter in service if it was not tight enough. I have ordered a new filter and I will remove the gascolator from the airplane to see if I can sort this thing out myself.
 
Tom

I'm sorry to hear that you're not having any luck getting hold of Andy, his work number is +44 23 9247 3945. Uk time is UTC.

I normally see him every few months when he's either out flying his RV-7 or at trade shows. He is really passionate about his products and I'm sure if you talk to him he will help sort this out.


Peter
 
spring

Tom,
Just picked up on this thread. Many of our filter bowls for the airliners mostly in a hydraulic system use a spring at the bottom of the filter. It is part of the filter and makes contact with the bottom of the bowl keeping the filter where it belongs. If you could find a way to adhere a compression type spring to the bottom of your filter this might be a fix.
Ryan
 
Possibilities

It's been 50 hours or so since I have last seen mine. How wide is the top flange of the plastic screen housing? I there space on the top flange for a nylon zip tie and any features in the aluminum housing that would catch the slack tang (like the entry port) to prevent the filter from spinning off. I do like the coil spring idea. I have not found any debris or water in mine but I do take it apart from concern about the amount of vibration mine is subject to. So far I have not found anything loose or out of place.
 
Ryan
The spring idea is a great one. I finally got a reply from Andair and basically he tells me that there is no problem if the thing is tightened properly. Based on my experience I disagree with the supplier. This is a fuel system and should we really have a part that requires it to be finger tight? Where does one find the finger tight torque chart?
When I remove the unit from the aircraft I will look at your spring idea and/or some other method of securing the filter in the bowl.
 
Look forward to your resolution

Tom, I hope you post the results of what you come up with for this. I have this same gascolator on my RV-4 as well as on the Rocket. Saves me having to think about a solution if you do the thinking instead :D.
 
The following is a subsequent follow up from Andair
Hi Tom,
I understand your concern again I'm sorry you have had this problem, but as you have said it has been satisfactory before, if you feel you need more security in the threading on of the screen then why not use Thread Loc 222 or Torque Seal when you carry out your next maintenance.

Kind Regards
Andy Phillips

I had wondered about a locking agent but was not sure which would be compatible with constant immersion in fuel. I wonder about torque seal, any experts out there on the correct material if Thread Loc 222 is not the one. I still like the idea of a spring under the filter.

Tom Martin
 
Tom Martin said:
....
I had wondered about a locking agent but was not sure which would be compatible with constant immersion in fuel. I wonder about torque seal, any experts out there on the correct material if Thread Loc 222 is not the one. I still like the idea of a spring under the filter.

Tom Martin
Click to expand...

Torque Seal is based on Ethanol according to the MSDS - it would certianly dissolve in fuel...

I'm almost wondering if the two of you are thinking of the same joint?
 
Gil, Thanks for your reply. I had my doubts about torque seal and had asked him for clarification; He certainly knows that I am concerned about the filter. What would you recommend as a locking agent?

Tom Martin
 
Tom,
Not speeking for Gill but I would be carefull about locking sealants especially considering some of it will be on the wrong side of the filter. I wouldnt use any thing other than a fuel tank sealant if that were the direction you chose to go.
Ryan
 
a subsequent reply from Owen at Andair:
It looks like you are getting really good service from your gascolator. The filter is designed so that if it does come loose, due to vibration or the operator not tightening it up particularly well after service, the filter will not come out completely, but still deliver fuel. Dont be afraid to tighten the filter up at the knurled end, it is quite robust there. Andy is in Florida at Sun n Fun for the next few weeks. so will not be able to anwser e-mail personally. The filter will not drop off. It was not tight enough.

Kind Regards
Owen Phillips
Andair Ltd

and my reply
Owen
When I removed the bowl the filter was laying in the bottom of the bowl. Are you saying that the although the filter threads were not engaged, the end of the filter was still within the ?unthreaded neck? of the body? I would see that as a positive feature, at least the filter was not floating and bouncing around in the bowl.
I am still not satisfied with the response that the filter was not tight enough. I maintain that it was as tight as the previous four or five times that the unit was serviced. It is unusual to have a finger tight only part in a fuel system. Where does one find the ?finger tight torque charts?? I realize that there is no such chart and you have to ask yourself if this part should then, not be installed by someone who is not at the peak of the average male mechanics strength? Just because this is a rare event does not mean that it will be the last time it happens.
I have built ten planes, and been a pilot for thirty years, I am not trying to be difficult, but I maintain that this is a basic design flaw. There should be NO finger tight parts on an airplane, especially in the fuel system.

Respectfully
Tom Martin
 
I have an Andair GAS376 gascolator and have just measured it. From the body flange to the end of the completely unscrewed filter measures 1.95" From the body flange to the bottom of the bowl measures 2.03". The gascolator is NOT designed so that the filter is retained before it completely unscrews. To do this would require a spacer or a spring in the bottom of the bowl.

My aircraft is still a long way from flying, but I would like to see this issue resolved satisfactorily by Andair.
 
Safety issue

Without doubt there was an issue with Tom's filter as it came loose, but before I am certain there is an issue with these gascators first of all I would need to know for certain that he had tightened it correctly , that there was locking resistance on the thread as he tightened it.


No disrespect to Tom here but we are all capable of being distracted when assembling things and walking away from them thinking they are done when they are not. For example I checked my kit fox before its first flight, it was independently checked by two other people, then after several flights I spotted a cotter pin was missing on the flaperon link.

I was sure I had put it in, two other people had checked...... How was this missed?

I had a similar experience with the flap link on my 9, I have managed to convince myself someone was I undoing the nut!!!

Tom himself says 500 plus hours no problems, how many other reports have there been of this problem........

Tom was right to bring this to our attention if only to serve as a reminder to check and double check that the filter is finger tight but personally I am not condemning my gascolater on the basis of this incident. Yes. I will take the bowl off to inspect before I fly again but for me the jury is still out.


You all of course are entitled to your own view and must decide on your ownsa
Safety requirements.
 
Steve,
No disrespect to you, but it really doesn't matter if Tom put it on tight enough or not. If it's possible for the filter to fall into the bowl it's not right and the problem needs to be addressed.
Ryan
 
Possible solution

I would suggest that lengthening the thread the filter screws onto so that the filter contacts the bottom of the bowl before it can come off would solve this 'problem'.

A spring at the bottom of the filter could come adrift and rupture the filter, likewise a blob of proseal could come adrift and block the fuel lines.
 
gascolator safety

Hi Tom, I'm no expert but I have been an A&P and pilot for over 30 years and I've owned 6 airplanes. I agree that there seems to be a problem in the gascolator setup you describe. I recently purchased an F-1 Rocket that has a fuel screen prior to the electric pump but no gascolator. Can you please let me know what solution you came up with? Where would you put a gascolator on an F-1? Many thanks, Paul
 
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