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  #11  
Old 05-07-2017, 10:01 PM
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BCP Boys BCP Boys is offline
 
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Default Awesome

Thanks again for sharing Jerry.

Best,
AB
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  #12  
Old 05-08-2017, 07:58 AM
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Good job Jerry,
Sorry we didn't have more RV's there to join you.
I am surprised you were able to get the contest off with the winds we had this last week.
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  #13  
Old 05-09-2017, 09:39 AM
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ssmdive ssmdive is offline
 
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Default So you RV guys get scared?

ONE guy with an RV showed up.... ONE! Kudos to Jerry for being the lone representative for RV's!

I understand your acro plane is not good for XC flying. I mean a 200MPH plane with only 3.5 hours endurance must be **** on a XC. And all those instruments must be really confusing.....

In all seriousness... What in the heck can we at the IAC CH23 do to get you people interested? I know some of the regular RV folks contacted me before with reasons they would not be there.... But how do I get you people reading this who have not shown up to show up?
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  #14  
Old 05-09-2017, 12:24 PM
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I was going to make the comment that we were all scared of flying against that scary guy named Ron in the S1S-Pitts but I don't see your name on the Sportsman flight sheet???????
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  #15  
Old 05-09-2017, 01:12 PM
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Gash Gash is offline
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ssmdive View Post
But how do I get you people reading this who have not shown up to show up?
I might be able to partially answer this question. From talking to a few other RV pilots, the concerns seem to follow these themes:

1. Equipment. There's a general concern that fuel and oil systems are not adequate for aerobatics. It would be good to keep spreading the word about what is and is not necessary. Ron Schreck's powerpoint slides from Oshkosh are absolutely outstanding for this.

2. Training. RV pilots I've spoken with feel that their experience is inadequate, but are unsure how to get the right training. It would be good to explain that the aerobatic skills and concepts learned in a different airplane translate well into the RV. So if somebody has any interest in doing aerobatics, they will get training. If they don't have the fire in the belly to do aerobatics, then lack of training is a valid (convenient?) excuse.

3. Aircraft suitability. I hear this all the time, even from non-RV pilots. There is a pervasive idea out there that the RV cannot stay inside the aerobatic box because it builds up speed too quickly. This simply is not true. It took me a few flights to learn how to stay inside the box, but once energy management is mastered, it becomes a non-issue.

4. Intimidation. I suffered from this one a bit. The aerobatic competitors always seemed like a different breed to me, and I wasn't sure how I would be received. I finally had to tell myself to forget about it and just show up. When I went to my first contest and basically told everyone "hello, I'm new, and I know nothing" I was quite pleasantly surprised at how down-to-earth and laid back everybody is. It's just a bunch of regular pilots who are happy to welcome us into the sport.

This is an interesting topic to discuss--perhaps it's worthy of it's own thread. I'd like to read other peoples' ideas on this too.
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  #16  
Old 05-09-2017, 01:26 PM
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ssmdive ssmdive is offline
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MarkW View Post
I was going to make the comment that we were all scared of flying against that scary guy named Ron in the S1S-Pitts but I don't see your name on the Sportsman flight sheet???????
That is because that ******* moved up to Intermediate!
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  #17  
Old 05-09-2017, 01:52 PM
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ssmdive ssmdive is offline
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gash View Post
I might be able to partially answer this question. From talking to a few other RV pilots, the concerns seem to follow these themes:

1. Equipment. There's a general concern that fuel and oil systems are not adequate for aerobatics. It would be good to keep spreading the word about what is and is not necessary. Ron Schreck's powerpoint slides from Oshkosh are absolutely outstanding for this.
Inverted fuel and oil is nice, but not needed for Sportsman. Primary I competed with a 7ECA, 115HP and no inverted fuel or oil. My normal Sportsman flight was +5/-2 and the -2 was only for less than a few seconds (<5).

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gash View Post
2. Training. RV pilots I've spoken with feel that their experience is inadequate, but are unsure how to get the right training. It would be good to explain that the aerobatic skills and concepts learned in a different airplane translate well into the RV. So if somebody has any interest in doing aerobatics, they will get training. If they don't have the fire in the belly to do aerobatics, then lack of training is a valid (convenient?) excuse.
Training is important. Basics and a spin series is all you really need. After that, you can learn the finer points with ground critiquing. Once you know spins and the very basics of a loop, roll, and lines, you can practice and get comfortable on your own.

I am not a CFI, but if anyone in South Florida wants a safety pilot to get coached through the basics, I will be glad to help. I try to hold training days out at 2IS twice a month. And if you want a CFI, we can arrange that.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gash View Post
3. Aircraft suitability. I hear this all the time, even from non-RV pilots. There is a pervasive idea out there that the RV cannot stay inside the aerobatic box because it builds up speed too quickly. This simply is not true. It took me a few flights to learn how to stay inside the box, but once energy management is mastered, it becomes a non-issue.
Having flown an RV4/6 I can tell you that Primary and Sportsman can easily be won by an 8KCAB Decathlon and the 4 and 6 I flew was much better than an 8KCAB. The 8KCAB has been the gold standard for Sportsman for years and the RV series rolls faster and has better vertical. Bill McLean beat me at many contests in his RV4. There is zero reason why an RV could not become the new standard for Sportsman.

Heck, Primary does not even have a box!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gash View Post
4. Intimidation. I suffered from this one a bit. The aerobatic competitors always seemed like a different breed to me, and I wasn't sure how I would be received. I finally had to tell myself to forget about it and just show up. When I went to my first contest and basically told everyone "hello, I'm new, and I know nothing" I was quite pleasantly surprised at how down-to-earth and laid back everybody is. It's just a bunch of regular pilots who are happy to welcome us into the sport.

This is an interesting topic to discuss--perhaps it's worthy of it's own thread. I'd like to read other peoples' ideas on this too.
We try to welcome everyone. There are some clicks, but they don't harm anyone but themselves and seriously, as you learned, most people just want you to show up and have fun.
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  #18  
Old 05-09-2017, 02:04 PM
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ronschreck ronschreck is offline
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gash View Post
I might be able to partially answer this question. From talking to a few other RV pilots, the concerns seem to follow these themes:

1. Equipment. There's a general concern that fuel and oil systems are not adequate for aerobatics. It would be good to keep spreading the word about what is and is not necessary. Ron Schreck's powerpoint slides from Oshkosh are absolutely outstanding for this.

Anyone interested in my PowerPoint presentation, just send me a PM with your email address and I'll get it to you ASAP. The same information is in my companion article to Van's article on RV aerobatics in the August issue of Sport Aviation.
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  #19  
Old 05-09-2017, 03:21 PM
sandifer sandifer is offline
 
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Location: NC
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Gash, your points over participation are right on. Here are the highlights of the feedback I've seen on VAF over the years regarding what holds folks back from getting involved in the sport. There are some legit points here, but largely misconceptions. I think many of you have done a great job putting many of these ideas to bed...especially those of you actually winning!

Quote:
I have considered doing a contest or two but I don't like the herky jerky way you have to do the figures to compete
Quote:
it is tougher to fly precision aerobatics in an RV than other purpose built aircraft
Quote:
I was intrigued with the idea several years ago, and even built my 8 with a flop tube and inverted oil. However, after a couple of years of IAC membership -- and reading in each issue of their magazine sad farewells to members who had perished while practicing their routines -- coupled with the unlikely successful egress from an RV-8 -- I took that off my list of things to do in life.
Quote:
One of my concerns was the "spins not considered recreational aerobatics and not recommended for RV aircraft". Is this accurate? Also, what about feasibility of exiting RV aircraft in an emergency? The "aerobatic designed" aircraft have a long history of strength and emergency egress that I am a little nervous about in the RV.
Quote:
it will not score well due to difficulty staying in the box
Quote:
My reservations are: Need of a parachute, need of more insurance, small box for a slippery low G airplane and lack of inverted systems.
Quote:
For me, I think the issue is training. Not so much availability of appropriate training, although that is a consideration. Cost, on the other hand, is probably my sticking point. I doubt anyone would want to teach from the back seat of a -4, and spending $150 / hour isn't within my near term reach.
Quote:
An aerobatic competitor friend once told me that "competition aerobatics is a violent sport best flown by violent pilots". One look at the on board video of a Sean Tucker routine seems to confirm this.
Quote:
Perhaps the real question revolves around developing an interest in competition acro. Recreational acro means flying when and where desired. Competition acro requires travel, time, and money. What does a person get in return for the additional investments? If it's all for fun, then why attend an IAC competition?
Quote:
I am only interested in "old-man" aerobatics, being able to loop, roll, you know...some +G stuff. I have no interest in competing with my fellow aviators, I just want to do the occasional yank-n-bank and not kill myself or hurt the plane. I can see getting the required training, but again, I don't really care how good the other guy performs.
Quote:
I guess that to answer your question in my case, I simply enjoy going up and flying free-form acro - I don't feel the need to compete, or to make the perfectly circular loop. I like pulling a loop into an Immelman, rolling on an up line to make cloverleafs, and making up stuff as I go along. I used to enjoy hockey skates more than figure skates as well - I guess it is just how I am wired. I also don't like to get involved in an activity (especially a group activity) if I can't devote enough time to make ti worth everyone's while - and with all the building and flying we do, spending a weekend helping with (and competing in) a meet is just off the bottom of the priority list.
Quote:
The RV is not a good serious aerobatic aircraft e.g. from competitions. Principally: It does not have a symmetric wing section, It does not have enough "drag", It's spin characteristics are a bit variable - not unsafe, but difficult to get entry/exit clean / crisp enough to satisfy the blind and deaf ones who judge you, It flies best "lightweight", and the inverted oil system / C/S [aerobatic] prop etc. the Aerobatics demand counter this.
Quote:
if one is looking to "compete" i.e. to "be competitive" or "win" as the primary (or high importance) goal of the airplane, then there are better choices than an RV.
Quote:
5 or 6 years ago I attended one of the local competetions. Try showing up in your Cherokee. Talk about rejection. I spent about an hour trying to talk and finally packed up and left. Never again. Once I was able to finally own my capable plane I found a good instructor who I fly with regularly. I'm not interested in competetion, ever, especially after that experience. I'm only interested in becoming the best flopper I can be, and I'm getting there, but with no thanks to the self centered perfectionists.
Quote:
If you truly want to fly competition acro; the Decathlon is the winner hands-down. This may ruffle some feathers, but the RV's aren't very good acro machines - good enough for "gentlemen acro" but no more.
Not to mention from Vans themselves - "Although RVs are capable aerobatic aircraft, we do not recommend them for serious competition aerobatics. Their high speed is not suited to the restricted competition zones. In order to stay "in the box’’ they would have to fly slower and lose the benefit of inertia, or keep the speed up and pull too many Gs".
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  #20  
Old 05-09-2017, 04:25 PM
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ronschreck ronschreck is offline
 
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Default Don't be hard on ourselves...

I know the IAC staff almost salivate when they see the potential new memberships that could be had among the 7000+ RV pilots who fly aerobatic capable airplanes. I am under no illusion that anyone ever built or bought an RV because they wanted to participate in aerobatic competition. So I am not surprised that very few of those 7000+ RV pilots have an interest in IAC membership and even fewer actually want to compete.

I am continually awed by the capabilities of my little RV. Not only can I zip around the globe at nearly 200 MPH at 8 gallons per hour, I can do it at night and in IFR conditions. That's enough for most but a few of us want to experience the thrill of formation flight and even fewer desire to explore the limits of the envelope in aerobatic flight. For a real thrill I enjoy formation aerobatics!

By the time you weed out all the RV enthusiasts who don't care to go any further than formation flight or recreational aerobatics there are precious few who want more. And that's OK with me. Pilots like Karl, Jerry, Bill and others have that fire in the belly that Karl mentioned and have found that challenging themselves through aerobatic competition is somewhat addictive.

I keep getting asked when I am going to buy a purpose-built aerobatic airplane. My answer to that: For me, the thrill and sense of accomplishment that I get from pushing myself and my RV to ever higher goals each year is all I could ever want. As far as I know, prior to this year there has only been one RV pilot that ever flew at the Intermediate level of IAC competition and that was a highly modified RV-4. Well, Bill McLean and myself are both competing at the Intermediate level this season and with a bit of luck and lots of practice I expect we might even take home a little wood before the year is out!

The list of RV pilots flying in IAC competition is growing and I predict that it will grow slowly but steadily as the word spreads.
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RV-8, "Miss Izzy", 2200+ RV Hours
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